HF's Best Forward of All-Time Tournament - FINALS - CLOSED - CROSBY WINS

[Trap Jesus]

Select one player for each match-up. Consider their career as a whole: stats, playoffs, awards, all-around play, anything you associate with a player being the best. Hockey Reference page for each player available below. Players seeded by Hockey Reference's Career Point Shares, Gretzky, Howe and Lemieux removed.

Bracket Reference (click to enlarge)

Spoiler

1. Sidney Crosby Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Round 1: def. 16 Elmer Lach (98%)
Round 2: def. 9 Bill Barber (96%)
Round 3: def. 4 Mike Bossy (82%)
Round 4: def. 2 Jean Beliveau (68%)
Round 5: def. 1 Steve Yzerman (88%)
Round 6: def. 1 Joe Sakic (88%)
Round 7: def. 1 Jaromir Jagr (60%)

vs.

1. Alex Ovechkin Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Round 1: def. 16 Kevin Stevens (100%)
Round 2: def. 9 Blake Wheeler (100%)
Round 3: def. 4 Bobby Clarke (87%)
Round 4: def. 3 Alex Delvecchio (96%)
Round 5: def. 5 Ted Lindsay (97%)
Round 6: def. 2 Guy Lafleur (87%)
Round 7: def. 2 Bobby Hull (59%)

Click to read more...

 

[JoVel]

Ooo I look forward to reading the comments on this one.

 

[Steven Toast]

I've always like Ovi more, but Crosby is the better of the two.

 

[bobholly39]

Crosby. His consistency can't be touched. He was the best, or co-best player (or let's even be loose and say top 3) every year for like 12 years straight or such. Whether it's regular season, playoffs, or half seasons - he's always been at the very top, never dipped below a certain baseline.

Ovechkin is great - easily 2nd best of this generation - but he hasn't remained quite at that consistently elite level for as long. In the past 9 seasons (since 2011) - Ovechkin only has two top 6 Hart finishes. Crosby has 6. Crosby almost for sure would have had 8 in 9 years if he didn't miss over half the seasons in both 2011 and 2012 - so his level of play was even stronger those 2 missed years. That's the differentiator.

Crosby also has the best playoff resume of his generation, and probably the best international resume too (yes i know - Canada is better than Russia).

This is one of the easiest matchups in this whole tournament since their careers are perfectly aligned. No need for era adjustment stuff, which is always a bit tricky.

 

[bobholly39]

ps if you're not convinced it's Crosby - look here - Crosby was just voted as Orr's equal, and Lemieux's better!

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Ovechkin--Crosby
*assuming this season is over

Hart: 3--2
Finalist: 5--7
Top 10: 9--9
Lindsay: 3--3
Finalist: 6--5
Smythe: 1--2
Calder: 1--0

Ross: 1--2
Top 10 pts: 8--11
PPG leader: 3--5
Top 10 PPG: 8--12

Rocket: 9--2
Top 10 goals: 13--4
GPG leader: 9--2
Top 10 GPG: 13--4

1st AST: 8--4
2nd AST: 4--4
Awards: 18--11

Crosby has 2 more nominations but OV has 1 more hart. OV was on pace for another top 10 finish this year so make that 10-9. Crosby has an extra smythe. Usually calders aren't a big deal, but considering OV won in a landslide vs Crosby (124-4 first place votes), it matters here.

Crosby has an extra ross and better pt finishes, but I don't think anyone disputes him being the better pt producer throughout their careers.

OV has 7 extra rockets and 7 extra GPG wins, but I don't think anyone disputes him being the better goal scorer throughout their careers. However, it's worth noting that, based on finishes, the gap between their goal scoring is way bigger than the gap in pt production.

OV has 4 more 1st ASTs and 7 more awards.

Arguments for Crosby: better/more consistent prime (1 of the best ever), better/more consistent pt finishes, best playoff performer of the generation (1 of the best ever), more team awards, better defensively.

Arguments for OV: GOAT goal scorer, better peak season (best of the 21st century), sustained his peak for multiple years (his 08-10 stacks up against anyone outside the big 4), huge lead in individual awards, physicality.

They are close, both will be guaranteed top 10 when they're finished, if not already. I can't blame anyone for voting Crosby. Of course, I have to vote OV =)

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Crosby. His consistency can't be touched. He was the best, or co-best player (or let's even be loose and say top 3) every year for like 12 years straight or such. Whether it's regular season, playoffs, or half seasons - he's always been at the very top, never dipped below a certain baseline.

Ovechkin is great - easily 2nd best of this generation - but he hasn't remained quite at that consistently elite level for as long. In the past 9 seasons (since 2011) - Ovechkin only has two top 6 Hart finishes. Crosby has 6. Crosby almost for sure would have had 8 in 9 years if he didn't miss over half the seasons in both 2011 and 2012 - so his level of play was even stronger those 2 missed years. That's the differentiator.

Crosby also has the best playoff resume of his generation, and probably the best international resume too (yes i know - Canada is better than Russia).

This is one of the easiest matchups in this whole tournament since their careers are perfectly aligned. No need for era adjustment stuff, which is always a bit tricky.

It doesn't change your overall point, but this is incorrect. 1st (13), 2nd (15), 6th (16). He also finished 7th last year so using "top 6" is kind of strange. Just go top 3/5/10, otherwise everything will be cherry picked (not accusing you, just saying in general).

 

[Merrrlin]

I was not expecting that kind of landslide.

 

[NyQuil]

This is a really tough one.

I've been on HF since the very beginning of the Ovechkin/Crosby fan feud, and I've probably vacillated between them at least a dozen times.

I suppose it really depends on how much of a premium you place on goal scoring ability.

 

[bobholly39]

It doesn't change your overall point, but this is incorrect. 1st (13), 2nd (15), 6th (16). He also finished 7th last year so using "top 6" is kind of strange. Just go top 3/5/10, otherwise everything will be cherry picked (not accusing you, just saying in general).

I actually did cherry pick on purpose in this case - I was trying to use Ovechkin's highest placement (outside of 2013 and 2015) as a baseline to show how Crosby compares in hart voting across this stretch, just to show the differentiaton in how many times he did better. Wasn't meant to be dishonest, but just to properly showcase. But i missed 2016 6th place somehow.

Here are their hart finishes overall though:

Hart finishes Ovechkin: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 6, 6, 7, 9
Hart finishes Crosby: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 5, 6

Despite the extra hart (which counts) - you can tell Crosby looks better here with more top finishes. This of course doesn't take into account 2011, 2012 and 2008 where Crosby was certainly playing at a level worthy of more top 5 hart finishes (and probably a couple of wins).

Also regarding AS rankings. Ovechkin looks fantastic - but in the same way I always say you can't compare 'raw' AS finishes across eras (more competition today for each position, then in past) - you also can't compare across positions. There are simply more and better top quality centers in contention for AS1 or AS2 every season, then there are at left wing.

 

[Steven Toast]

OV has 4 more 1st ASTs

1st AS as C is much more difficult to obtain than as a W.

 

[nowhereman]

Well, you can't say you expected it to be anyone but these two guys, intrinsically linked by fate to forever be compared to one another. These guys were the two best of their generation, the Bird vs. Johnson of their era/sport and probably both top 10 players of all time.

As good as Ovechkin was at goal-scoring, maybe the greatest of all time in that department, I've always felt that Crosby was the better all-around talent. He's got my vote here. Careers are close but, based on talent/ability, I have to go with Sid.

Now that I've said my part, time to sit back, wait for the usual suspects to pour in and watch this thread go completely to crap in 3... 2... 1...

 

[Dominance]

Crosby better by a notable margin with and without the puck.

No debate on who has the larger all-around impact, and considering Crosby is the statistically superior offensive producer, well...

No debate.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Absolute toss up in an argument this board has tirelessly debated. 20 years removed I assume the vote will be closer than what it currently is. I voted Ovechkin, have zero quarrel with anyone who takes Crosby here but anyone saying it isn't a debate is delusional.

 

[jetsforever]

Did we just go through this massive bracket to determine that Crosby is the (4th) best?

 

[Trap Jesus]

Did we just go through this massive bracket to determine that Crosby is the (4th) best?

Yes. Mods won't allow a Crosby vs. Ovechkin thread unless you disguise it this well.

 

[Weztex]

Yes. Mods won't allow a Crosby vs. Ovechkin thread unless you disguise it this well.

Looks like it's the most epic camouflage in HFBoards history.

 

[JackSlater]

Crosby's been better to this point. Wouldn't be shocked if Ovechkin passes him eventually.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Yes. Mods won't allow a Crosby vs. Ovechkin thread unless you disguise it this well.

The tournament is much more than being another Crosby vs. Ovechkin poll. We've also resolved the contentious Jaromir Jagr vs Mike Knuble debate.

 

[Trap Jesus]

The tournament is much more than being another Crosby vs. Ovechkin poll. We've also resolved the contentious Jaromir Jagr vs Mike Knuble debate.

I watched them both play in Boston and was more impressed by Knuble. He should have won that one.

 

[Voight]

 

[Voight]

Crosby's been better to this point. Wouldn't be shocked if Ovechkin passes him eventually.

People say that every year, but at this point what more does he need to do?

He finally wins the cup, has a great playoffs & takes home the Smythe

Leads the league in goals yet again last year, setting the record for most times leading in goals

Possible 10th time leading in goals this year, which would be 2 more than the next person (Hull)

Has now hit 700 goals, and there is serious talk that he could pass Gretzky in goals. (yes he's a ways away, but he's at least in the realm of possibility)

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby without thinking. Just a far more impactful player and a better offensive player in both reg and playoffs and internationally.

 

[Fataldogg]

Ovechkin--Crosby
*assuming this season is over

Hart: 3--2
Finalist: 5--7
Top 10: 9--9
Lindsay: 3--3
Finalist: 6--6
Smythe: 1--2
Calder: 1--0

Ross: 1--2
Top 10 pts: 8--11
PPG leader: 3--5
Top 10 PPG: 8--12

Rocket: 9--2
Top 10 goals: 13--4
GPG leader: 9--2
Top 10 GPG: 13--4

1st AST: 8--4
2nd AST: 4--4
Awards: 18--11

Crosby has 2 more nominations but OV has 1 more hart. OV was on pace for another top 10 finish this year so make that 10-9. Crosby has an extra smythe. Usually calders aren't a big deal, but considering OV won in a landslide vs Crosby (124-4 first place votes), it matters here.

Crosby has an extra ross and better pt finishes, but I don't think anyone disputes him being the better pt producer throughout their careers.

OV has 7 extra rockets and 7 extra GPG wins, but I don't think anyone disputes him being the better goal scorer throughout their careers. However, it's worth noting that, based on finishes, the gap between their goal scoring is way bigger than the gap in pt production.

OV has 4 more 1st ASTs and 7 more awards.

Arguments for Crosby: better/more consistent prime (1 of the best ever), better/more consistent pt finishes, best playoff performer of the generation (1 of the best ever), more team awards, better defensively.

Arguments for OV: GOAT goal scorer, better peak season (best of the 21st century), sustained his peak for multiple years (his 08-10 stacks up against anyone outside the big 4), huge lead in individual awards, physicality.

They are close, both will be guaranteed top 10 when they're finished, if not already. I can't blame anyone for voting Crosby. Of course, I have to vote OV =)

I agree. My vote is Ovechkin. He has had a better career in my opinion. Had a better peak too. I think Crosby is arguably the better player, and had he not been injured and won those extra awards, I'd probably vote Crosby, but that didnt happen. And I cant reward him for what could have been.

 

[Fataldogg]

People say that every year, but at this point what more does he need to do?

He finally wins the cup, has a great playoffs & takes home the Smythe

Leads the league in goals yet again last year, setting the record for most times leading in goals

Possible 10th time leading in goals this year, which would be 2 more than the next person (Hull)

Has now hit 700 goals, and there is serious talk that he could pass Gretzky in goals. (yes he's a ways away, but he's at least in the realm of possibility)

Put in perspective that Ovechkin has lost time to lockouts, and now this pandemic, it's very possible he could have been at 775-800 goals already, and passing Gretzky would be a given.

The fact that he may still pass Gretzky with multiple lockouts and a now suspended season is absolutely crazy.