Line Combos: HFBoards Decides: Opening Lineup - Phil Kessel

[mpp9]

Interesting Kunitz's name isnt mentioned again. Wonder how they view him at this point.

 

[drpepper]

Whoa. Who tracks this now?

The data looks like it's from Corey Sznajder. He had a fund to sponsor his tracking project and parlayed it into an NHL job.

But other fanbases have been tracking that type of data for years on a smaller scale (eg Eric Tulsky for the Flyers).

Ryan Stimpson and volunteers have been doing passing data, and SportLogiQ has been using video analysis to produce proprietary data.

 

[drpepper]

I read that article when it came out, but I looked at last season's stats as an anomaly personally, and the writer needed to provide the past years data as well for it to paint a clearer picture. He could've done a better job in talking about the Leafs' zone data that to be honest, I looked at it and was pretty clueless about what constituted an event until I read some of the comments - which only enforced my belief that he needs to provide more information



It's this guy: https://twitter.com/ShutdownLine/

Last season he released the stats for the Leafs, Flyers and Sharks. I was bummed when the Pens ones weren't released.


Edited to add: That same site also posted that the Leafs top line sucked at retrieving loose pucks in the offensive zone, but Kessel was apparently more hardworking than JVR there: http://sportlogiq.com/2015/08/12/toronto-maple-leafs-top-line-struggles-analysis/

I wish they included the stats for all 3 zones personally.

SportLogiQ is a company with proprietary data. I don't think they are going to release more details when the goal is to entice clients to pay for their services and database.

Also the zone entry (and other passing) data is similar in that it only tracks less than a season of data.

 

[Jacob]

As long as they come to a conclusion based on what's best for the team and not what makes Sid (or Geno) happy then that's all I care about. And that if any pairings do not work after a reasonable trial period that they try switching it up.

And that Perron play in the top 6 unless he really, really plays his way out of it.

 

[mpp9]

Malkin and PH scored goals at a better rate than Sid and PH. People need to deal with that. Its not like they dont have a basis to build chemistry.

 

[The Greatest 101]

Johnston doesn't disappoint.

 

[mpp9]

:

As long as they come to a conclusion based on what's best for the team and not what makes Sid (or Geno) happy then that's all I care about.

Absolutely. Same goes for Plotnikov. If hes a better fit with Sid and his winger, play him there. Not with Malkin.

 

[drpepper]

Malkin and PH scored goals at a better rate than Sid and PH. People need to deal with that. Its not like they dont have a basis to build chemistry.

I think Malkin and Hornqvist looked poor together particularly in the defensive zone, but they also looked discombobulated in the offensive zone.

I don't think the sample size playing together is large enough to say anything other than that in limited time Malkin and Hornqvist produced well offensively and not great defensively. I don't think it's predictive one way or another.

 

[billybudd]

I read that article when it came out, but I looked at last season's stats as an anomaly personally, and the writer needed to provide the past years data as well for it to paint a clearer picture. He could've done a better job in talking about the Leafs' zone data that to be honest, I looked at it and was pretty clueless about what constituted an event until I read some of the comments - which only enforced my belief that he needs to provide more information



It's this guy: https://twitter.com/ShutdownLine/

Last season he released the stats for the Leafs, Flyers and Sharks. I was bummed when the Pens ones weren't released.


Edited to add: That same site also posted that the Leafs top line sucked at retrieving loose pucks in the offensive zone, but Kessel was apparently more hardworking than JVR there: http://sportlogiq.com/2015/08/12/toronto-maple-leafs-top-line-struggles-analysis/

I wish they included the stats for all 3 zones personally.

Another reason I’m writing this is because some have asked me what I’m going to do next season (or this season to be more precise). Most probably saw this coming, but I was hired by an NHL team a few days ago and will have to go “dark†on most hockey-related things for next season

Good for him, but


lame

 

[Shady Machine]

I think Malkin and Hornqvist looked poor together particularly in the defensive zone, but they also looked discombobulated in the offensive zone.

I don't think the sample size playing together is large enough to say anything other than that in limited time Malkin and Hornqvist produced well offensively and not great defensively. I don't think it's predictive one way or another.

Yeah that's probably fair. I also think they looked discombobulated, but production is production. I'm willing to give it a shot. I really hope Perron is on the LW there. I do think there is a concern about defensive responsibility on that line, but hopefully that works itself out.

 

[systemsgo]

SportLogiQ is a company with proprietary data. I don't think they are going to release more details when the goal is to entice clients to pay for their services and database.

Also the zone entry (and other passing) data is similar in that it only tracks less than a season of data.

Makes sense. I didn't pay attention to the source, it just feels like a tease.

And based on the comments section of their article, it includes more than just zone entries.

 

[drpepper]

Yeah that's probably fair. I also think they looked discombobulated, but production is production. I'm willing to give it a shot. I really hope Perron is on the LW there. I do think there is a concern about defensive responsibility on that line, but hopefully that works itself out.

If the lines look something like:

Plot/Dupuis/Kunitz-Crosby-Kessel
Perron-Malkin-Hornqvist

I would try and keep Malkin to OZ and NZ FOs as much as possible.

Hopefully the combination of whatever LW and Crosby on the top line plus the bottom 6 can handle more DZ FOs.

I also think Johnston was going to work on Malkin's defensive structure this season (I think Malkin is a much better free-style 1v1 defender than systematic, structured defender) which might help.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah that's probably fair. I also think they looked discombobulated, but production is production. I'm willing to give it a shot. I really hope Perron is on the LW there. I do think there is a concern about defensive responsibility on that line, but hopefully that works itself out.

I think that could be covered up with proper usage of that line. Give them primarily offensive zone starts and try to avoid sending them out in the D zone as much as possible.

 

[Shady Machine]

If the lines look something like:

Plot/Dupuis/Kunitz-Crosby-Kessel
Perron-Malkin-Hornqvist

I would try and keep Malkin to OZ and NZ FOs as much as possible.

Hopefully the combination of whatever LW and Crosby on the top line plus the bottom 6 can handle more DZ FOs.

I also think Johnston was going to work on Malkin's defensive structure this season (I think Malkin is a much better free-style 1v1 defender than systematic, structured defender) which might help.

Agreed all around.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

If the lines look something like:

Plot/Dupuis/Kunitz-Crosby-Kessel
Perron-Malkin-Hornqvist

I would try and keep Malkin to OZ and NZ FOs as much as possible.

Hopefully the combination of whatever LW and Crosby on the top line plus the bottom 6 can handle more DZ FOs.

I also think Johnston was going to work on Malkin's defensive structure this season (I think Malkin is a much better free-style 1v1 defender than systematic, structured defender) which might help.

I agree 100%, and considering how difficult PH and Geno make it on teams trying to transition out of their zone, I think that line could be very effective if used as you say. We're agreeing too much today, the force has become out of balance.

 

[Whale Mingo]

I think Darth Yoda is referring to the exercise of predicting the lineup, which is already in the ****ter because we, as a democracy, elected Kessel to Malkin's wing.

This is why democracy is a failed process. People with very little information on a subject get their vote counted as much as those who are educated on the subject. Democracy is nothing more than mob rules. The majority doesn't have to be right to get what in wants, it just has to be the majority.

Look no further than American politics to see how democracy will fail you.

Thank goodness there is still some sense left in this organization. I was just about ready to jump off this rock. My head is absolutely spinning at the number of people who would put Kessel with Geno. It's just beyond words wrong, but there were enough of you on board that I was wondering.....

 

[Shady Machine]

This is why democracy is a failed process. People with very little information on a subject get their vote counted as much as those who are educated on the subject. Democracy is nothing more than mob rules. The majority doesn't have to be right to get what in wants, it just has to be the majority.

Look no further than American politics to see how democracy will fail you.




Thank goodness there is still some sense left in this organization. I was just about ready to jump off this rock. My head is absolutely spinning at the number of people who would put Kessel with Geno. It's just beyond words wrong, but there were enough of you on board that I was wondering.....

I guess we should just anoint you King of HFBoards. Oh great, educated one!

 

[Whale Mingo]

I guess we should just anoint you King of HFBoards. Oh great, educated one!

You missed the point completely. I was talking in a general term, but that doesn't change the fact that Kessel belongs with Crosby. AINEC.


I do, however, accept your nomination to be king. We don't have to vote on that, do we?

 

[Jacob]

If we had let democracy handle the Lovejoy / Despres trade we'd be in much better shape right now.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

You missed the point completely. I was talking in a general term, but that doesn't change the fact that Kessel belongs with Crosby. AINEC.


I do, however, accept your nomination to be king. We don't have to vote on that, do we?

I wouldn't say Kessel belongs with Crosby. Kessel doesn't really need Crosby or Malkin to be productive. He creates offense all by himself and he makes his linemates better because he is a hell of a playmaker.

I don't see why Kessel wouldn't thrive with either player. So IMHO people insisting he fits better with one or the other are all out to lunch.

The reality is, this is Crosby's team, not Malkin's team. That's how it is and that's why he gets Kessel. Some people may not want to admit that, but that is a simple truth the Pens org has, but won't admit to the fanbase.

We can accept that truth or pretend they are both equal in the org eyes, and be naive.

 

[Shady Machine]

You missed the point completely. I was talking in a general term, but that doesn't change the fact that Kessel belongs with Crosby. AINEC.


I do, however, accept your nomination to be king. We don't have to vote on that, do we?

I won't address the political nature of your point because it will lead to banned discussion.

The rest of your point was that we are all idiots for thinking Kessel should be with Malkin. I think my response was appropriate.

 

[Shady Machine]

I wouldn't say Kessel belongs with Crosby. Kessel doesn't really need Crosby or Malkin to be productive. He creates offense all by himself and he makes his linemates better because he is a hell of a playmaker.

I don't see why Kessel wouldn't thrive with either player. So IMHO people insisting he fits better with one or the other are all out to lunch.

The reality is, this is Crosby's team, not Malkin's team. That's how it is and that's why he gets Kessel. Some people may not want to admit that, but that is a simple truth the Pens org has, but won't admit to the fanbase.

We can accept that truth or pretend they are both equal in the org eyes, and be naive.

I agree with that for sure. I mean for me, I don't care all that much who Kessel plays with, I just thought Hornqvist looked better with Sid and Kessel with Malkin provided a deeper overall top 6.

Kessel will thrive wither whoever he plays with.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I agree with that for sure. I mean for me, I don't care all that much who Kessel plays with, I just thought Hornqvist looked better with Sid and Kessel with Malkin provided a deeper overall top 6.

Kessel will thrive wither whoever he plays with.

I just enjoy the fact that Crosby and Malkin are Pens. I don't really care which guy is better or with whom Kessel flanks.

But I'm just surprised anyone really thought Kessel was going with Malkin first. Crosby is the face of this franchise and it's pretty naive to think they acquired an elite winger and would try him with Malkin before Crosby.

It was never going to happen.

 

[TheSniper26]

I wouldn't say Kessel belongs with Crosby. Kessel doesn't really need Crosby or Malkin to be productive. He creates offense all by himself and he makes his linemates better because he is a hell of a playmaker.

I don't see why Kessel wouldn't thrive with either player. So IMHO people insisting he fits better with one or the other are all out to lunch.

The reality is, this is Crosby's team, not Malkin's team. That's how it is and that's why he gets Kessel. Some people may not want to admit that, but that is a simple truth the Pens org has, but won't admit to the fanbase.

We can accept that truth or pretend they are both equal in the org eyes, and be naive.

To be fair, with the exception of some very vocal HFBoards members, are they equal in anyone's eyes? I mean Crosby is widely considered the best player in the world for a good reason. Geno's had some incredible highs but, more often than not, Crosby has been the more consistent and more productive player. And he's done it while usually getting the tougher matchups. The simple truth is that Sid and Geno probably aren't equal. It doesn't have to be a knock on Geno to accept that reality.

So I'm ok with the organization not viewing them as equals. What bothers me is the possibility that they're letting that influence the lineup decisions. Crosby being better isn't a good enough reason to crowbar someone onto his line. Those decisions should be made based on fit, chemistry, balance, depth, etc.

If Kessel winds up with Sid, then great. But I hope it's based on more than just "best center + best winger = super fun happy times" logic.

 

[Night Shift]

I agree with that for sure. I mean for me, I don't care all that much who Kessel plays with, I just thought Hornqvist looked better with Sid and Kessel with Malkin provided a deeper overall top 6.

Kessel will thrive wither whoever he plays with.

It is possible that Hornqvist and Malkin can work through chemistry issues provided they play more together. I'm sure at some point we'll see Kessel with Malkin to change things up a bit (if the team is struggling or needs a spark) but I expect Kessel to be primarily lined with Crosby and occasionally Malkin throughout his time here. I'm also expecting to see a PP line of Malkin, Kessel, Crosby. Or even if you throw Malkin on the point occasionally and put Perron or Hornqvist there. On paper, either way it looks lethal