Hextall and Flyers Pro Scouting of veteran Players

[Ironmanrulez]

Hey all together

Iam reading here every day. And i appreciate all the discussions and informations you all gave me. I would never got them without you, cause iam living in the middle of Germany. I´ve write a few postings in the last years, but not in the last few month.

I really like Hextall and the way the Flyers are going the last 3 Seasons. But i recognized 1 thing iam not confident with. The trades for veterans in the last 3 or 4 seasons are really dreadful.

Andrew MacDonald, Dale Weise, R.J. Umberger, Luke Schenn, Lecavalier, Downie, Ilya Bryzgalov

All these aditions were bad, or at least not good enough for the asking price or the salary! The only good FA signings coming from outside of NA. Raffl, Bobrovsky etc...

I really start to ask myself if our Pro Scouting, especially our NHL Pro Scouting is good enough.

And if we look at the last day with the trade for Flippula i have a bad feeling. Yes i like his skillset. I like his highlight videos and i like what Hextall said about him. But he is in his decline and he is another veteran we added and maybe another underperforming player?

What you think?

Click to read more...

 

[deadhead]

Hextall was replaced by Dave Brown in 2006 as Director of Player Personnel, Brown seems to have remained there until 2013, when he was demoted to Director of Professional Scouting and replaced by Chris Pryor.

Weise was a fluke, his three previous years he was a solid 3rd line player, and he's been consistent this year with everything but scoring, so I have to think this year is an anomaly.

Umberger was basically retaining money, they gambled they might get a decent year or two before they bought him out.

The rest of those deals predate Hextall taking the reins.

 

[Striiker]

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Weise bounce back next year.

Not a big bounce, since he's still just a 3rd liner, but enough to make him worth the contract.

If the big guns are struggling to score why would anyone be surprised that a far less skilled player is as well..?

 

[Flyotes]

We can argue over how dubious some of the recent moves Hextall made are in reality, but the concern level is higher than it was. His plot armor has fallen off. This was probably bound to happen.

 

[Ironmanrulez]

I know the intent of these trade.

Best case scenario: Filppula is the #2a and Couts the #2b Center. Couts plays the important defense minutes, Filp plays the important 2nd pp minutes. If he can play this role, the trade will be rly good. After next season you can resign him for 3rd line minutes, or if he isnt willing to sign cheap, you can trade him at tradedeadline for a 2nd or 3rd round pick.

This scenario i would love! It seems like a EHM or NHL2017 trade

But if he struggles to play important offense minutes he wont help us at all. Weise isnt a bad player for us, but he is an offensive blackhole. And in a team all are struggling scoring goals, we need players who can provide offense. If Filp isnt provide offense also it will be a very difficult next season.

My first thought was the first scenario and i really love to have Filp on our team. But after i think about other veterans in the past, iam not that positive on this one.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

I know the intent of these trade.

Best case scenario: Filppula is the #2a and Couts the #2b Center. Couts plays the important defense minutes, Filp plays the important 2nd pp minutes. If he can play this role, the trade will be rly good. After next season you can resign him for 3rd line minutes, or if he isnt willing to sign cheap, you can trade him at tradedeadline for a 2nd or 3rd round pick.

This scenario i would love! It seems like a EHM or NHL2017 trade

But if he struggles to play important offense minutes he wont help us at all. Weise isnt a bad player for us, but he is an offensive blackhole. And in a team all are struggling scoring goals, we need players who can provide offense. If Filp isnt provide offense also it will be a very difficult next season.

My first thought was the first scenario and i really love to have Filp on our team. But after i think about other veterans in the past, iam not that positive on this one.

Well, the thing is, you can't guarantee anything, you know? You have to roll the dice and take your chances, and keep a close eye on the salary cap. There's really nothing to worry about with this one, in my opinion - he's a good hockey player and adds speed and skill to a roster that desperately needs it, at a position of desperate need. (He also gives us someone with recent deep playoff runs, which is nice, although I think experience has been a bit overrated around here lately.) And as Hexy said, he won't get in the way of the kids when their time comes.

 

[Sawdalite]

Hextall, and Homer before him... and even Clarke before that, seem(ed) to have a good handle on the Entry Draft and also with College Signings and non-NHL FAs... most notably with players outside NA.

Where I too have had major concerns is with the FAs... I suppose we must take in consideration the lack of Cap Space Hexy has to deal with... but with that the Contract Cost is even more important... Gordon and Weise this past Off-Season were clear mistakes; Gordon for short-term and low Cap, but Weise for much too high a Cap Hit and too long a length.

With the Trades... I don't want to go round and round on the Umberger/Hartnell Deal again, so I will move quickly on that and say that his clever Cap Reductions with the help of Vinny's agreement to retire and the move of Pronger's dead Cap were brilliant... With that said, I wasn't very happy to learn that the $5M Cap that was to be gained when Streit came off the books was gone with his trade yesterday. I would have much rather he took that $5M and used it in the coming Off-Season... with a better eye on the available FAs this time... and a big effort to move Weise's Contract and replace him.

So, yes... I do have large concern with the Organization's decisions on NHL Veterans... and have for a little while now... but I have great confidence in their out of NHL FA Deals... I trust Chris Prior and the selections before Hexy took the reins... Hexy has a tough job with the Cap situation he inherited and has done well, but I just wish he would improve the NHL Veteran acquisitions and the Cap Hits associated with them, going forward.

 

[deadhead]

I think it's just one of those seasons for Weise:
2016-17 0.32 pp60 5x5
2015-16 1.39
2014-15 1.82
2013-14 1.70
His shooting % is 1.75, the two previous years it averaged 9.35%.

 

[Sawdalite]

I forgot to point out their allowing White to walk and signing Boyd Gordon in his place... who has since been demoted to the Phantoms after riding the Press Box most of the Season when here... White is by no means a great Player, but contributed so much more to the Team than Gordon did.

Just another example of recent Flyers NHL Veteran decisions.



... And all Players are allowed down Seasons... it's when it seems to be a pattern that concerns me... especially when Cap Space is at a premium. Weise gives so little bang for the buck... At his Cap Hit, we have to get better return. There are hungry younger Players out there that would play in the NHL for the Minimum and give better return. I sure hope he has better Seasons ahead.

 

[GKJ]

Weise is an ok bottom 6 player. He's not a center, so he shouldn't have a 4-year deal. Can't go any more than 2 on those guys, for just the reason you're seeing.

There needs to be some balance between evaluation on the NHL roster and expectations. Other than Provorov, Simmonds, and Gudas, every player on the roster is performing not just below expectations, but by wide margins. If Raffl is going to struggle to be a 20-point player, then he should've been traded for 2 2nd round picks last year instead of signed for 3 years at age 28. If he is a 20-point player, then why isn't he getting there? And why is he getting scratched? Why was Nick Schultz signed for 2 years, that was an awful contract for a bad player the moment that it happened, which hurt our cap situation this year.

 

[David St Hubbins]

With the Trades... I don't want to go round and round on the Umberger/Hartnell Deal again, so I will move quickly on that and say that his clever Cap Reductions with the help of Vinny's agreement to retire and the move of Pronger's dead Cap were brilliant... With that said, I wasn't very happy to learn that the $5M Cap that was to be gained when Streit came off the books was gone with his trade yesterday. I would have much rather he took that $5M and used it in the coming Off-Season... with a better eye on the available FAs this time... and a big effort to move Weise's Contract and replace him.

Which FA are you particularly high on? And with our expected cap space, how does this move prevent that? Based on the Hockey News top 30 (November), of the top 10, only Shattenkirk (28), Alzner (28), and Kulikov (26) are under 30. In the 11-30 group, only Bonino, Mason, Neuvith and Del Zotto are under 30.

Not being a wise-ass, just asking. Cause I don't see a lot in UFA, there is the ED, and we still stand to have a ton of cap space available.

 

[Rebels57]

Which FA are you particularly high on? And with our expected cap space, how does this move prevent that? Based on the Hockey News top 30 (November), of the top 10, only Shattenkirk (28), Alzner (28), and Kulikov (26) are under 30. In the 11-30 group, only Bonino, Mason, Neuvith and Del Zotto are under 30.

Not being a wise-ass, just asking. Cause I don't see a lot in UFA, there is the ED, and we still stand to have a ton of cap space available.

Correct. There is nothing to use that cap space on via free agency that would make sense. Fippula is only 1 year. Provy, TK and maybe Ghost (if he signs a 2 year bridge) will need new contracts in 2019. Spend it on Filp for 1 year than sit on it for 1 year until you need it for those extensions.

 

[Sawdalite]

Which FA are you particularly high on? And with our expected cap space, how does this move prevent that? Based on the Hockey News top 30 (November), of the top 10, only Shattenkirk (28), Alzner (28), and Kulikov (26) are under 30. In the 11-30 group, only Bonino, Mason, Neuvith and Del Zotto are under 30.

Not being a wise-ass, just asking. Cause I don't see a lot in UFA, there is the ED, and we still stand to have a ton of cap space available.

With his play against the Panthers, I'm quite a bit mire impressed than I was going in... But I just feel that with $5M more of freed up Cap Space, Hexy could maybe get one of his choosing, if he can work out the details in the Open Market... But if he wants VF and feels that he is worth $5M... and is in fact ready and able to dip into the FA Pool next Season, than I suppose one could argue that he made a good move... Only time will tell though.

Question: Where are you coming up with the over/under 30 stipulation when commenting on my Post? I can't remember the age criteria coming into play in this discussion.

Correct. There is nothing to use that cap space on via free agency that would make sense. Fippula is only 1 year. Provy, TK and maybe Ghost (if he signs a 2 year bridge) will need new contracts in 2019. Spend it on Filp for 1 year than sit on it for 1 year until you need it for those extensions.

I don't believe that the Flyers are anywhere near Cap stable yet... and I believe Ghost must be signed THIS Off-Season... so he will be draining the Cap... and if they want a number one Goalie that they can rely on for the entire Season, whether it be Mason on a Ben Bishop kind of Goalie, that will also sap another $5-6M or so.

If VF is his man, so be it... but it does limit his options... and $5M for a Player on the downswing is nothing to sneeze at, as I see it. I was just disappointed that the $5M Cap Space I thought we had is no longer in play... for at least another Season. It's like I saw the light at the end of the tunnel for a second but then I could no longer saw it ahead of us. I hope VF plays like he did against Florida and proves to not be on the downswing any longer.

 

[LI Fly Guy]

I don't believe that the Flyers are anywhere near Cap stable yet... and I believe Ghost must be signed THIS Off-Season... so he will be draining the Cap... and if they want a number one Goalie that they can rely on for the entire Season, whether it be Mason on a Ben Bishop kind of Goalie, that will also sap another $5-6M or so.

If VF is his man, so be it... but it does limit his options... and $5M for a Player on the downswing is nothing to sneeze at, as I see it. I was just disappointed that the $5M Cap Space I thought we had is no longer in play... for at least another Season. It's like I saw the light at the end of the tunnel for a second but then I could no longer saw it ahead of us. I hope VF plays like he did against Florida and proves to not be on the downswing any longer.

Well they were scheduled to have 22 in space at the end of the season. With the 3 moves yesterday that brings it to 13. After all the other RFAs are signed it leaves around 5.

Now you could've not made the move for Flip, but under no circumstance could we go into next season without getting a top 9 center. I don't think there are any out there and as Hextall alluded to if there are it would've cost a hell of a lot more especially when it comes to term. Even in a trade scenario it would've cost something. We actually gave up nothing for him and 2 picks. This move to go along with our gaping hole at center, Rubstov and Vorobyov in pipline, and the fact the Flip is a pretty good player make this move a no brainer.

After next season he can go if Rubstov is ready and if they want to bring him back thats fine too but it'll definitely be at a lower price. But just looking ahead, say we don't use that extra 5 in space you can now add an extra 9 to it with Read and Flip coming off the books that would bring it to 14. And that's with essentially everyone locked up and majority of the team on ELC's. Team is in pretty good shape as far as the cap is concerned.

 

[panayiotis]

strange

I saw Wiese play. Did not understand the contract. We have Leier in minors. The Tampa deal . A real head scratcher. WE seem to have let Tampa of the hook for a 5 million next year. Without any compensation. Salary cap space is a commodity. I would imagine Sean might be dealt at this years draft. I am wondering myself about the pro scouting of team. Younger faster is nhl today.

 

[David St Hubbins]

Question: Where are you coming up with the over/under 30 stipulation when commenting on my Post? I can't remember the age criteria coming into play in this discussion.

The over-30 parameter is my own. Given the fact that this team will be integrating 3-4 rookie defensemen into the mix over the next 2 years, it seems foolish to me to spend big on UFAs over 30 that will likely be declining when the d settles in. OF course, other opinions are welcome

 

[Curufinwe]

I saw Wiese play. Did not understand the contract. We have Leier in minors. The Tampa deal . A real head scratcher. WE seem to have let Tampa of the hook for a 5 million next year. Without any compensation. Salary cap space is a commodity. I would imagine Sean might be dealt at this years draft. I am wondering myself about the pro scouting of team. Younger faster is nhl today.

So much wrong with this post I don't even know where to start.

Team is in pretty good shape as far as the cap is concerned.

Indeed. If Ghost gets bridged they should have over $3m in space with a 24 man roster. And one of these players will be going to Vegas, probably Raffl.

Giroux ~ 8.275
Voracek ~ 8.25
Schenn ~ 5.125
MacDonald ~ 5
Filppula ~ 5
Couturier ~ 4.33
Simmonds ~ 3.975
Read ~ 3.625
Ghost ~ 3.5
Gudas ~ 3.35
Neuvirth ~ 2.5
Raffl ~ 2.35
Weise ~ 2.35
Umberger BUYOUT ~ 1.5
Bellemare ~ 1.45
Cousins ~ 1
Manning ~ 0.975
Lindblom ~ 0.925
Leier ~ 0.9
Laughton ~ 0.9
Konecny ~ 0.894
Provorov ~ 0.894
Sanheim ~ 0.863
Morin ~ 0.863
Stolarz/Lyon ~ 0.85
TOTAL ~ 69.644

 

[Curufinwe]

If VF is his man, so be it... but it does limit his options... and $5M for a Player on the downswing is nothing to sneeze at, as I see it. I was just disappointed that the $5M Cap Space I thought we had is no longer in play... for at least another Season. It's like I saw the light at the end of the tunnel for a second but then I could no longer saw it ahead of us. I hope VF plays like he did against Florida and proves to not be on the downswing any longer.

Why do people keep repeating this alternative fact?

Filppula had 31 points in 76 games last season.

He has 35 points in 60 games this season.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

There's a lot right with panay's post.
The Weise signing was a mistake.
The league certainly is becoming younger & faster.
The Flyers did take Filppula's $5M contract and NTC essentially for free -- so how you feel about that depends on if you think the Flyers should be adding such vets.
I think overall there are legitimate concerns about Hextall overvaluing and misevaluating veteran NHLers, & being scared to fully commit to a rebuild.

 

[Curufinwe]

Unless you think Brayden Schenn is a center and are comfortable with being the third worst ES scoring team in the league, then there was a huge hole in the roster right now and next year. Getting a good player in an area of need on a one year contract for free isn't a bad thing. Hextall turned a 39 year old defenseman he didn't need into a better, younger player and two draft picks in the worst seller's market in 20 years.

Weise hasn't played like he did in Montreal, but Leier wasn't NHL ready to start the season, and certainly isn't now. Weal is slower than Leier but has looked more like an NHL player in his call up because speed isn't everything.

Couturier isn't getting traded. The whole reason Filppula was brought in was because they wanted three good centers.

 

[TheKingPin]

Hextall, and Homer before him... and even Clarke before that, seem(ed) to have a good handle on the Entry Draft and also with College Signings and non-NHL FAs... most notably with players outside NA.

Where I too have had major concerns is with the FAs... I suppose we must take in consideration the lack of Cap Space Hexy has to deal with... but with that the Contract Cost is even more important... Gordon and Weise this past Off-Season were clear mistakes; Gordon for short-term and low Cap, but Weise for much too high a Cap Hit and too long a length.

With the Trades... I don't want to go round and round on the Umberger/Hartnell Deal again, so I will move quickly on that and say that his clever Cap Reductions with the help of Vinny's agreement to retire and the move of Pronger's dead Cap were brilliant... With that said, I wasn't very happy to learn that the $5M Cap that was to be gained when Streit came off the books was gone with his trade yesterday. I would have much rather he took that $5M and used it in the coming Off-Season... with a better eye on the available FAs this time... and a big effort to move Weise's Contract and replace him.

So, yes... I do have large concern with the Organization's decisions on NHL Veterans... and have for a little while now... but I have great confidence in their out of NHL FA Deals... I trust Chris Prior and the selections before Hexy took the reins... Hexy has a tough job with the Cap situation he inherited and has done well, but I just wish he would improve the NHL Veteran acquisitions and the Cap Hits associated with them, going forward.

Have to disagree with you here.

A little too much 20/20 here. Weise was looked at a good signing. Just a little too much term. He hasn't worked out so far but give it a pass with this record poor play from the entire team minus provy and simmer.

Gordon was seen as an ideal move to take more D off of G and save them for this part of the season. Most everyone liked this deal.

Finally Filp. Outstanding trade. He is exactly who we need for exactly the time. The cost is the a non factor. We basically swapped a bad D for a good 2C. Not going to get a similar player on the same term let alone at the same price this ufa pool.

Hexy may not hit on every signing and trade but he has the right thought process.

 

[Psuhockey]

There's a lot right with panay's post.
The Weise signing was a mistake.
The league certainly is becoming younger & faster.
The Flyers did take Filppula's $5M contract and NTC essentially for free -- so how you feel about that depends on if you think the Flyers should be adding such vets.
I think overall there are legitimate concerns about Hextall overvaluing and misevaluating veteran NHLers, & being scared to fully commit to a rebuild.

I don't think Hextal isn't committed to a rebuild. He is trying to stay competitive until his drafted guys are ready. IMO the PEB signing says he doesn't think any of his guys are going to be ready until 2018 at the earliest for the 4th line center role. I also think it shows he has little faith in guys like Laughton and probably Leier.

It's just my theory but I don't think Hextall liked much of what was in the system when he got here. I think he wants to play like LA. At forward he has only drafted 3 smaller guys, Konecny, Kase and Salinitri, and only Salinitri doesn't play a "heavy" game. At defense, Peterrsson was small but was also called a Pitbull and Friedman although shorter than the other guys is pretty stocky compared to a guy like Ghost. Everything at the big club is just trying to stay on the bubble until it becomes a team made of of Hextalls draft picks in the image of LA's Stanley cup teams IMO.

 

[Curufinwe]

You can tell by the trades he's made and the draft picks he has acquired that he is rebuilding, he's just not tanking.

-Got a 2015 4th in the Hartnell trade (became Vorobyov)
-Got a 2015 3rd for McGinn (became Sandstrom)
-Got a 2017 3rd for Rinaldo
-Got a 2015 2nd and 2016 2nd for Kimmo (became Allison)
-Got 2015 1st + 3rd in the Coburn trade (became Konecny & Tomek)
-Got 2017 4th in the Grossmann/Pronger trade (traded for 2018 4th)
-Got 2017 4th and 7th in the Streit trade

You rebuild by trading veterans for draft picks. 25 draft choices in Hextall's first three years as GM, and he has 11 or 12 picks this year.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/draft_by_team.php?TeamID=70

 

[GKJ]

I'm curious if he was close or wanted to trade Del Zotto. Should've got at least a 3rd for him. If he was offered less than a 4th and 7th, then I don't mind keeping him and having that time to re-sign him.

 

[Curufinwe]

I think the fact Kulikov didn't move tells you the market for selling dmen was weak. He was rated as a bigger trade target than MDZ or Streit.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-trades-left-table-deadline-day/

11. Boston added Drew Stafford right at the deadline. They were in on Radim Vrbata, and, at one point, some of the other teams in that bidding thought the Bruins would get him. Sounds like they also took a look at Dmitry Kulikov, but could not work out something with Buffalo.