Here comes expansion! Part III - Bids Only from Vegas, Quebec City

[patnyrnyg]

Yes. Let's be clear: Vegas wanted the NHL, not the other way around. The NHL wanted Seattle and Portland. They over played their hand. 500 million? For a gate league?

If the NHL WANTED Portland and Seattle, they would have met with them, asked if they were interested and asked, "How long do you need to get this together and at what price are you interested?" If they could agree, there would have not been an announcement about accepting bids. Would have been done behind closed doors and then the league would have announced new franchises. Is there anyone in Portland besides Paul Allen that could own a team? Could they get an arena built if Allen didn't want them sharing with the Blazers or couldn't come to an acceptable agreement with the Blazers? The NHL would love to be in every major city and every quasi-major city that doesnt have their own pro-sports team, but there is a lot more to it than WANTING to be there.

 

[cutchemist42]

For those who think this was a rigged game, I can understand from where you are coming. However, not sure I fully buy it. We have been hearing about groups in Seattle and Toronto for a while now. I would have to think these people have already had a significant amount of preliminary talks with the powers that be about arenas. I doubt any of them was starting from scratch here.

I dont know if it was rigged. I do think Quebec/LV knew where they stood though and that no other city honestly had the time to figure it out. I cant think of a better word to describe what I feel this was. I do believe though that other cities probably inquired, and that the NHL quietly told them the truth about what this truly was.

 

[Melrose Munch]

If the NHL WANTED Portland and Seattle, they would have met with them, asked if they were interested and asked, "How long do you need to get this together and at what price are you interested?" If they could agree, there would have not been an announcement about accepting bids. Would have been done behind closed doors and then the league would have announced new franchises. Is there anyone in Portland besides Paul Allen that could own a team? Could they get an arena built if Allen didn't want them sharing with the Blazers or couldn't come to an acceptable agreement with the Blazers? The NHL would love to be in every major city and every quasi-major city that doesnt have their own pro-sports team, but there is a lot more to it than WANTING to be there.

They have been to Seattle multiple times. Daly has been there 2 months ago and the beginning of the year, where have you been man? The NHL did this to themselves , I agree. Las Vegas and Quebec. But at least they got 1 billion dollars.

 

[MNNumbers]

They have been to Seattle multiple times. Daly has been there 2 months ago and the beginning of the year, where have you been man? The NHL did this to themselves , I agree. Las Vegas and Quebec. But at least they got 1 billion dollars.

I think the reality is that City of Glendale did this to them.....

 

[stchamp98]

They have been to Seattle multiple times. Daly has been there 2 months ago and the beginning of the year, where have you been man? The NHL did this to themselves , I agree. Las Vegas and Quebec. But at least they got 1 billion dollars.

I don't think they overplayed their hand when frankly their hand is still plenty strong. They're still in a great position to land their target full value (Still don't believe that's 500M) for franchise ownership which is really all the expansion process should be about, value. I just think they played out this out like impatient high school kids who got tired of waiting for the girl they really wanted to dance with to empty her dance card. It's not overplaying a hand, it's simply playing it in a way that I personally wouldn't.

 

[patnyrnyg]

They have been to Seattle multiple times. Daly has been there 2 months ago and the beginning of the year, where have you been man? The NHL did this to themselves , I agree. Las Vegas and Quebec. But at least they got 1 billion dollars.

Exactly, so at least one of these groups should already have the legwork done for an arena. Agreements in principle shall we say and now just need to know the team is coming to start construction. They could play in the current arena for a season or two if they have to. Not uncommon to do so.

 

[Riseonfire]

I wouldn't be surprised to see a 2-phase expansion. LV and Quebec + realignment makes conferences of 16 and 16. 2-3 Years later Seattle and ______ join the league.

 

[patnyrnyg]

I wouldn't be surprised to see a 2-phase expansion. LV and Quebec + realignment makes conferences of 16 and 16. 2-3 Years later Seattle and ______ join the league.

Seattle and the other as an expansion to 34 teams? Doubt that happens. Think 32 is the max. Then again, I always thought they had it perfect in 92-93 at 24 teams.

 

[Frank the Tank]

I dont know if it was rigged. I do think Quebec/LV knew where they stood though and that no other city honestly had the time to figure it out. I cant think of a better word to describe what I feel this was. I do believe though that other cities probably inquired, and that the NHL quietly told them the truth about what this truly was.

It happens all the time when companies are required by law/internal policy to post certain job opportunities in public, where, in reality, they already have a suitable candidate selected.

 

[syc]

I guess demand wasn't as high as Bettman and Daly thought. One bid from a city who will be subsidized by casinos in a decade when the shiny new toy effect wares off and another from a city that honestly probably won't ever make a profit.

 

[sandysan]

I guess demand wasn't as high as Bettman and Daly thought. One bid from a city who will be subsidized by casinos in a decade when the shiny new toy effect wares off and another from a city that honestly probably won't ever make a profit.

you think that quebec wont make a profit ? they will be fine, they are already in bed with the biggest conglomerate in the province and have a fan base that ensures that the centre videotron wont be seeing a whole lot of empty seats.

if seattle even had an arena, they would be FAR more likely to have attendance/revenue problems, especially if they ever had to compete against the NBA. Quebec's market invades areana in the states to let them know they are still there, quebec city and the province green lit a hockey only funding proposal for the new arena. In seattle a hockey first mou was doa.

quebec city will be fine, they wont be gta2, but they will be in the black.

 

[GuelphStormer]

I didn't think Roustan would actually make a bid. His whole scheme sounds a little thin and far-fetched to me.

I am also more than a little amused at the early hype for Hamilton that appeared to die off when it became clear that there would not be a bid. If all the hyperbole were true, you would imagine that there would have been someone willing to lap-up the money that was said to b available at that venue. I guess things aren't what they seem there.

No surprise at no Southern Ontario bids at all. Price tag is to high to turn a profit. Money talks.

that there was no bid from hamilton in this expansion process does not mean there is no interest nor that the individual is not real. there are all sorts of valid reasons why he continues to remain private, as well as why he did not hurriedly submit an expansion bid.

rest assured, gary bettman knows who he is, what his plans are, and what he is prepared to pay ... in total.

yes, i will agree that many things are not what they appear to be.

 

[Melrose Munch]

that there was no bid from hamilton in this expansion process does not mean there is no interest nor that the individual is not real. there are all sorts of valid reasons why he continues to remain private, as well as why he did not hurriedly submit an expansion bid.

rest assured, gary bettman knows who he is, what his plans are, and what he is prepared to pay ... in total.

yes, i will agree that many things are not what they appear to be.

The excuses are ridiculous man. The was a window open and he didn't bid. Case Closed.

 

[Pilky01]

I don't think there is a sports topic I find more loathsome than "franchise history" and what happens when teams moves.

For one, there are no 'hard and fast' rules for this sort of thing, and for second, "history" is not something that can be bought and sold. The Coyotes look ridiculous hanging old Jets' numbers from the rafters just like the Avalanche would look ridiculous hanging Nordique banners (which they don't do because their management has half a brain).

 

[Melrose Munch]

Exactly, so at least one of these groups should already have the legwork done for an arena. Agreements in principle shall we say and now just need to know the team is coming to start construction. They could play in the current arena for a season or two if they have to. Not uncommon to do so.

Right, but the price was way too high.

 

[sandysan]

Yes. Let's be clear: Vegas wanted the NHL, not the other way around. The NHL wanted Seattle and Portland. They over played their hand. 500 million? For a gate league?

why would the nhl want TWO bottom 10 revenue teams, one with an owner whose interest in the sport extends exactly to whether on not he can make money off of it ?
Please, please please dont say " footprint".

a team in either portland or seattle is less set financially than quebec city who has to do precisely ZERO to " grow the game". and if the idea is that we are going to listen to the sirens's song of the mythical " big us TV contract" then its clear atlanta and houston are far better markets. Why ? because they have more people ( or so goes the conventional wisdom here and which is the only knock on qc)

if two cities are willing to pay the 500 million ( we will see) and the league plans to exapnd by 2, then 500 million is the price. If you cut in portland or seattle in on the cheap for the footprint canard, how long do you reasonably expect to have to wait before either of these teams outperforms QC to make it a wash ? 50 years ? a hundred ? never ?

las vegas is risky, this is true. but after putting expansion teams in markets where many of them are struggling right now, putting a team in a city that doesnt have to sell itself to new fans, a team that will likely be at max revenue from the jump, how is this bad again ? Seriously what are the chances that people in Qc desert the nordiques no matteer how bad they play ? Zero and of the possible teams for expansion, they are likely the only ones ( perhaps with GTA2 in there as well).

 

[wildthing202]

IIRC, it's the franchise's decision if they want to hold on to / preserve the franchise's past history.

Phoenix wanted to (hence Winnipeg doesn't have their old records, etc), but Colorado and the Cleveland Browns didn't want to. The new Jets also wanted to honour the Thrashers (ex. Dan Snyder).

They were forced to give it up as part of a lawsuit which resulted in the NFL having 31 teams for a couple of years before the Texans came in.

Expansion via lawsuit. Happened in MLB as well when the Pilots left Seattle after a year back in 1970 which resulted in the creation of the Mariners in 1977 which also allowed Toronto to get into baseball.

 

[DetroitRed]

I don't think it's a matter of the NHL losing its interests in Seattle and where ever else. I think it's the NHL getting its cake and eating it too.

For example, here they are set to make about a billion dollars on two new expansion markets. Las Vegas is a gamble, pun intended, but sink or swim, its not really any skin off the league's back.

Moreover, if they still want Seattle, Portland, Milwaukee, Houston, and/or Saskatoon, the opportunity remains. Especially so since some existing markets, most notably among them, Phoenix, have consistently performed poorly monetarily, and can be relocated.

And if the NHL is still waiting on arena plans to solidify in its supposed preferred expansion markets, then the time frame fits nicely for relocation after 2017.

So here, the NHL makes a billion dollars, and then a few years down the road, maybe it relocates Phoenix and whoever else to more lucrative markets and thereby fixes alignment simultaneously. Everybody wins, especially the league.

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

The shield confirms, Las Vegas and Qc: http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=775295&cmpid=nhl-twt

Apparently, only Mr. Foley and Quebecor have the confidence in their ability to secure an arena and suitable ownership capability to move forward with this process.

Oh snap.

16 groups asked for applications.

 

[MarkhamNHL]

this was a very fast / truncated expansion bid period... which tells me the league needs to try to get their 500 million from cities willing to pony up as fast as possible because relocations are coming up fast....

by this they now can say oh teams are worth minimum 500 million, so you want to buy/relocate ?
500 million + relo fee
they can now ask for 500 million for the joke that is the coyotes
hence Gary promising the owners they will not lose money on the coyotes when they bought them out of bankruptcy and only they know how much the league poured into that team...

each owner will now get what 32 million appx for expansion as well.

watch how quickly the vetting gets done, the 500 million is asked for
then relocations begin

 

[cutchemist42]

Ken Campbell ‏@THNKenCampbell 2m2 minutes ago
NHL confirms it sent out 16 expansion bid packages and got only two applications - from Las Vegas and Quebec City.

Ken Campbell
‏@THNKenCampbell
Think NHL isn't upset that Toronto and Seattle didn't bid? Took a shot at both of them in its own news release.

NHL upset that Seattle is still sort of an NBA first City?

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

Gary definitely wrote that statement. Can totally imagine him saying it in his high pitched voice with his unique facial expressions.

 

[SilverPlaqueVII]

To me, the history should belong to the city. Can't imagine too many Coyotes fans care about what the team did in Winnipeg same for Avs fans in Quebec. Maybe it was different when they were new to the areas and the players from Quebec were still playing? Even if they didn't keep the Nordiques name, I would think the fans of Quebec would be more interested in the original Nordiques than the fans in Denver.

Think the Rockies. The Devils ignored the Scouts and Rockies history and traditions (The name, Rockies, would be given to the MLB Colorado team in 1993) but the Avalanche wanted to start fresh.

The Whalers' legacy lives on with the Hurricanes and the Coyotes took the Jets history with them. Such as shame they could not get the Browns treatment.

To make things right, and my question is, would the Colorado Avalanche be retconned and treated as an "expansion" franchise that began in the 1995-96 NHL season once the Nordiques return via expansion?

 

[Ugmo]

They can't have wanted either Seattle or Toronto that badly with that preposterous 500m expansion fee.

 

[Melrose Munch]

why would the nhl want TWO bottom 10 revenue teams, one with an owner whose interest in the sport extends exactly to whether on not he can make money off of it ?
Please, please please dont say " footprint".

a team in either portland or seattle is less set financially than quebec city who has to do precisely ZERO to " grow the game". and if the idea is that we are going to listen to the sirens's song of the mythical " big us TV contract" then its clear atlanta and houston are far better markets. Why ? because they have more people ( or so goes the conventional wisdom here and which is the only knock on qc)

if two cities are willing to pay the 500 million ( we will see) and the league plans to exapnd by 2, then 500 million is the price. If you cut in portland or seattle in on the cheap for the footprint canard, how long do you reasonably expect to have to wait before either of these teams outperforms QC to make it a wash ? 50 years ? a hundred ? never ?

las vegas is risky, this is true. but after putting expansion teams in markets where many of them are struggling right now, putting a team in a city that doesnt have to sell itself to new fans, a team that will likely be at max revenue from the jump, how is this bad again ? Seriously what are the chances that people in Qc desert the nordiques no matteer how bad they play ? Zero and of the possible teams for expansion, they are likely the only ones ( perhaps with GTA2 in there as well).

So now you support Vegas? Come on. Portland would be mid pack, Seattle top 10. Better then the coyotes.