Confirmed with Link: Head of Amateur Pracey Fired. UPD: Hired by Flyers - UPD: Hepple doing 2015 draft

[Colorado Avalanche]

Yea, I mean I'm not sure what Roy's expectations were really. The previous regime gave Pracey the keys to the draft, and he went ahead with a BPA approach. It's not really his job to have "vision" for the NHL team down the line, that's the GM's job. If they wanted to take a more needs based approach that's fine, but then the GM needs to be more involved in the decision process.

The two things Roy seemed upset about the most in that Pracey took two similar defenseman in Elliott and Barrie in the same draft, and two goalies in Pickard and Aitto, netted the Avs two of their better draft picks in recent history. It's not like there were a whole bunch of guys sitting in those rounds that have turned into quality NHLers either.

I agree with Roy that they need to fill some of the holes with a needs based approach, because they have most of the top end skill positions filled for the foreseeable future anyway, but I think Pracey's being scapegoated a bit too hard by him to excuse the poor season. The whole idea he keeps pointing to when pressed is that his 4th liners and depth defenseman were injured this year and they didn't have good depth in the minors, so that's why they've had a poor season. In reality that's not at all the reason they've had a poor year.

Exactly, sure we've had bad 4th liners or depth players, but whatever those guys only make a small amount of time on ice played compared to our top guns like MacK, Duchene etc. I put the blame on mostly our young guns. They didn't look good at all the first 30-40 games basically. That costs us the season. Not depth players. Our powerplay has been utter ****, I mean Avalanche has way more offensive talent than most of the teams in NHL, but their powerplay is ONE OF THE WORST IN NHL. That's unacceptable. Roy should look into mirror and fix his powerplay and make those young guns play start from the season next year. If those things happen, boom we are back in playoffs. We have too much talent to be a bubble playoff team, even with our bad defense. I still believe we have one of the best young cores in NHL. We just need to add couple pieces and we'll be in great shape, Roy needs to add those couple pieces (new depth player on offense, good defenseman for top pairing etc.)

 

[AvsRobin]

You can't keep drafting small forwards and expect to win.

I think you simplify what's hard about drafting by just saying that. If the biggest players won anyone could do this.

For me, it's a plus if you have it, but in my own preference, I'd rather have someone who ignores size completely than someone who overvalues it.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Ironically the teams Roy mentions in regards to building organizational depth are Detroit and Tampa, two teams value skill over size. Look at the top 5 scorers on each team, all 6' or under and all but one of those ten players is home grown. It would suck for those teams if they passed on these players because they weren't 6'4"

detroit has focused little more in drafting size lately. it's obviously not only consideration and never should be but it has seemed to have more weight for them lately.

Detroit still has 6 guys who are 6'2"+ though. Not sure why it's an either or situation. Are there not guys with both skill and size?

not late in the draft. guys with size and skill go early.

in later rounds, where pracey had problems finding good players, all players are flawed or very flawed.

looking quickly, only about 10 teams found good NHL players after 3rd round from 09-11 drafts.

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

You know how you guys have been pissed off that Holden, Cliche, Mitchell, Talbot, McLeod, Geunin, etc. have been on the roster and that we call up players like Stollery and Carey? That falls directly on the scouting staff. Why? Because instead of our own players to plug into those spots or young players to bring up that can play on the 3rd line or do spot duty on the top lines we had to rely on the free agent signings and waiver claims to take those spots.

Our prospect pool pre-2013 is a total disaster. Our most promising d-prospects were drafted by Roy and Co. Our AHL team is a total mess that can't score goals because there's no skill there. If you believe that Pracey chose "skilled but small" players then you're mostly wrong. You know Freddie Hamilton that we just traded for? He has the best chance to making the NHL team and sticking out of all of them. Is that not sad?

 

[InjuredChoker]

You know how you guys have been pissed off that Holden, Cliche, Mitchell, Talbot, McLeod, Geunin, etc. have been on the roster and that we call up players like Stollery and Carey? That falls directly on the scouting staff. Why? Because instead of our own players to plug into those spots or young players to bring up that can play on the 3rd line or do spot duty on the top lines we had to rely on the free agent signings and waiver claims to take those spots.

Our prospect pool pre-2013 is a total disaster. Our most promising d-prospects were drafted by Roy and Co. Our AHL team is a total mess that can't score goals because there's no skill there. If you believe that Pracey chose "skilled but small" players then you're mostly wrong. You know Freddie Hamilton that we just traded for? He has the best chance to making the NHL team and sticking out of all of them. Is that not sad?

not pracey's fault that management traded bournival away and had less than average # of picks. and way less for rebuilding team.

pracey is one guy at fault here but not the only one.

i'm not sure if bigras and bleackely really were roy picks.

 

[Tweaky]

The complaints about who got drafted when and why seem to be never-ending. I do not profess to know, or remember, who should have been drafted at what positions, but there are some that stick out to me.

Any of the top 3 were no-brainers. Even if we had gone different routes with any of them, it would not have been drastically worse. OEL instead of Duchene, Jones v. MacK. Not going to look for one for 2011, as RNH was the only one at the time that was projected as high as Landy. No real credit for Pracey on these...especially as his bosses would have had a great deal of influence on them anyhow (esp. MacK)

ROR - I remember him falling more than expected...enough that he was a class above who else was left. Pracey should not get a ton of credit for this one.

Elliott - I distinctly remember being upset at this one, as I wanted Tatar, solely based on his showing at the WJC that year.

Barrie was a pleasant surprise, and this one is definitely to Pracey's credit.

The goalies...I did wonder why we picked 5 in 3 years, but as the only one showing real promise right now is the 2nd last one we picked, can't complain much. Ideally (IMO), we pick one a year, unless there is one we can't pass up.

 

[InjuredChoker]

i wonder how well tatar would have developed playing 4 years in LE.

lot of players have fallen more than expected. many of them busted. there's usually a reason why they fall so much and it may not be a good one.

 

[AslanRH]

We aren't even sure Sakic and Roy's players will work out yet any better than Pracey's.

Will they be more inclined to call up "their guys"? Probably, but is that necessarily different than continually playing everyone's favorites in Cliche and Guenin?

I think until we see some of the mid and late round picks actually have the impact that those Redwing and Lightning late rounders have, it is much easier for Roy to unload on Pracey's guys.

 

[niwotsblessing]

i wonder how well tatar would have developed playing 4 years in LE.

lot of players have fallen more than expected. many of them busted. there's usually a reason why they fall so much and it may not be a good one.

Playing for Dean?

One of the constant refrains here is that guys like Hishon, Elliott & Siemens have not developed as hoped/desired. When one guy fails to develop it is easy to conclude that he just didn't have the "right stuff." But the pattern we are seeing is that a number of players in the AHL are failing to develop, in which case the blame more likely falls with the coaching staff than the players. And it was not long ago we heard the phrase "Dean's Dungeon."

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

not pracey's fault that management traded bournival away and had less than average # of picks. and way less for rebuilding team.

pracey is one guy at fault here but not the only one.

i'm not sure if bigras and bleackely really were roy picks.

I think they were. That 2013 draft and 2014 draft were more similar then the 2009-2012 drafts were to the 2013 draft. There was an obvious draft philosophy change when Roy and Sakic took over.

We aren't even sure Sakic and Roy's players will work out yet any better than Pracey's.

Will they be more inclined to call up "their guys"? Probably, but is that necessarily different than continually playing everyone's favorites in Cliche and Guenin?

I think until we see some of the mid and late round picks actually have the impact that those Redwing and Lightning late rounders have, it is much easier for Roy to unload on Pracey's guys.

So far Bigras is our best prospect followed by Bleackley. Both also have a better chance of sticking in the NHL then anyone that Pracey drafted so far. Geertsen and Butcher are looking better then nearly any late pick Pracey made.

Only reason Cliche and Geunin are playing is because the scouting failed to bring in even NHL bottom pairing/4th line caliber players right now. How pissed off would you be if you came to a team and you were told you're best prospects were nearly all 5' 10"< and the AHL team was among the worst in the league?

I don't lay all the blame on Pracey. There obviously needed to be more communication between the scouts and management. Our best forward call-up cannot be Paul Carey.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I think they were. That 2013 draft and 2014 draft were more similar then the 2009-2012 drafts were to the 2013 draft. There was an obvious draft philosophy change when Roy and Sakic took over.

there was an obvious change in draft philosophy but that doesn't mean that bigras and bleackley weren't pracey picks. especially bleackley seems like classic pracey pick.

i don't know how much pracey was given power. i think the lack of vision part is on previous management. pracey was and is a scout, they should've given him better or stricter or whatever drafting philosophy to go with.

later round D's in 2012 don't look too awesome but our picks just suck. it was at least borderline unacceptable to not take any D.

 

[AslanRH]

So far Bigras is our best prospect followed by Bleackley. Both also have a better chance of sticking in the NHL then anyone that Pracey drafted so far. Geertsen and Butcher are looking better then nearly any late pick Pracey made.

Only reason Cliche and Geunin are playing is because the scouting failed to bring in even NHL bottom pairing/4th line caliber players right now. How pissed off would you be if you came to a team and you were told you're best prospects were nearly all 5' 10"< and the AHL team was among the worst in the league?

I don't lay all the blame on Pracey. There obviously needed to be more communication between the scouts and management. Our best forward call-up cannot be Paul Carey.

Bigras and Bleackley may also be Pracey's ROR and Barrie. Until Roy and Sakic produce some NHL players or even quality AHL guys that take LEM to the playoffs from those mid to late rounders. then I will hold out on supporting Roy dumping on Pracey like that.

I think there was clearly some philosophy differences between the two and I think it got personal, but I'm not a fan of dumping on a former employee like that publicly. I don't like it when coaches do that to former players, players to former teams, or owners to former FO staff either. Let the past rest in peace and tell/show me how you are going to make the future better.

 

[AslanRH]

Do any of you (especially our very knowledgeable Juniors Hockey posters) have some likely targets of who we could get to replace the current LEM staff?

I hope for guys who run Roy's system (similar to how Detroit works, I believe, with their AHL team), but more importantly guys who excel at development.

 

[raistlin76]

I think Hishon example is the best one. When Pracey drafted him out of the blue sky we have already fair share of around 6' centers in the organization. In 2008 we drafted 5'9'' Tessier and 6' Condon, then Duchene at 5'11'' and O'Reilly at 6'. And we already have Stastny at 6'. Drafting another 5'10'' player wasn't the best move. I'm not talking about his injury it can happen, but if you are already load with around 6' centers and you still want center you go with 6'6'' Bjugstad who is available. Also he left the team so weak on wings especially on RW. Only Stewart was RW drafted quite early and that was in 2006 draft.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

I think you simplify what's hard about drafting by just saying that. If the biggest players won anyone could do this.

For me, it's a plus if you have it, but in my own preference, I'd rather have someone who ignores size completely than someone who overvalues it.

Nobody is overvaluing it. Saying you can't draft just small players is not overvaluing big players. Nobody is saying to draft just big players.

 

[tucker3434]

I wonder what would have happened had Hishon not been concussed or Pracey had picked any other 1st round graded defenseman in 2011.

I believe both of those were a bit of bad luck. Never pulling a NHLer out of the 3rd round or later is totally on Pracey though. Seems like we should at least have a depth player or two.

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

there was an obvious change in draft philosophy but that doesn't mean that bigras and bleackley weren't pracey picks. especially bleackley seems like classic pracey pick.

i don't know how much pracey was given power. i think the lack of vision part is on previous management. pracey was and is a scout, they should've given him better or stricter or whatever drafting philosophy to go with.

later round D's in 2012 don't look too awesome but our picks just suck. it was at least borderline unacceptable to not take any D.

I don't really care about not taking any defense in the 2012 draft. That draft was an all-around disaster of a draft that really deprived us of having any players be available for call ups this season or even next season. Lack of vision is in part of the management but as Head of Scouting it's Pracey's job to keep the prospect pool strong. When he kept seeing his picks fail year after year and then follows it up with the 2012 draft you have to wonder what he was thinking.

He's a good scout, but putting him in charge of stocking the prospect pool just really didn't work out for the Avalanche. I do appreciate the work he did to get us Barrie and ROR along with Pickard. Every other pick just seemed like a complete disaster.

Bigras and Bleackley may also be Pracey's ROR and Barrie. Until Roy and Sakic produce some NHL players or even quality AHL guys that take LEM to the playoffs from those mid to late rounders. then I will hold out on supporting Roy dumping on Pracey like that.

I think there was clearly some philosophy differences between the two and I think it got personal, but I'm not a fan of dumping on a former employee like that publicly. I don't like it when coaches do that to former players, players to former teams, or owners to former FO staff either. Let the past rest in peace and tell/show me how you are going to make the future better.

Everberg and Rendulic. Two of Roy's players. Unless that classifies as pro scouting. Geertsen is already looking like he will outstrip Pracey's first round pick Duncan Siemens. Pracey has had 4-5 drafts to make things happen. He didn't. Instead we're in some weird limbo state where we have lots of high talent on the roster but nothing in the AHL and no prospects ready to jump in yet.

Our best prospects seem to be the ones recently drafted over the ones closer to the NHL. Not a good thing.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

detroit has focused little more in drafting size lately. it's obviously not only consideration and never should be but it has seemed to have more weight for them lately.



not late in the draft. guys with size and skill go early.

in later rounds, where pracey had problems finding good players, all players are flawed or very flawed.

looking quickly, only about 10 teams found good NHL players after 3rd round from 09-11 drafts.

And none of those 10 teams were able to get a guy with good size and skill? I'm not saying a guy who is 6'4", just talking about someone who isn't "undersized".

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

It definitely seemed that Pracey had his type and he didn't like to deviate from his type. Unfortunately, that type didn't really turn out to be players that would make it to the NHL or even succeed in the AHL. Looking back at the drafts, I almost get the feeling that he liked how the player looked at that point, but did little to project their NHL upside. I thought Pracey was the man for the job in 2009, the selections made that year I thought were worthwhile gambles. High talent players with a bit of risk behind them. Dutch was a give me. O'Reilly was the highest ranked player at that point, but I believe there was concern over his skating and upside at the time. Elliott and Barrie were smart gambles, good puck moving defenders with some flaws. I feel like past the fourth round it's a gamble so I won't critique too much there.

For the 2010 draft I liked two of his picks right away, Pickard and Aittokallio. He managed to get the two top ranked goaltenders for the draft. I was a little flabbergasted that he picked Hishon, but I thought hey, he did pretty good last year. At the time I wanted one of Bjugstad, Watson or Sheahan, a big center to compliment our skilled centers. The 2012 draft was the one where I had lost all faith in his ability to help this team in the future. Bourke and Smith were the only picks I liked from that draft. Bourke was more of the same that he drafted, but he had high upside. Smith was a smart gamble. I was so excited to see Colton Sissons still there at our 2nd round pick, and he picks Heard, who probably could have been available at a later pick.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Bigras and Bleackley may also be Pracey's ROR and Barrie. Until Roy and Sakic produce some NHL players or even quality AHL guys that take LEM to the playoffs from those mid to late rounders. then I will hold out on supporting Roy dumping on Pracey like that.

I think there was clearly some philosophy differences between the two and I think it got personal, but I'm not a fan of dumping on a former employee like that publicly. I don't like it when coaches do that to former players, players to former teams, or owners to former FO staff either. Let the past rest in peace and tell/show me how you are going to make the future better.

Even if Roy fails as well that doesn't mean Pracey deserves any less grief. Whether or not you believed in his philosophy of drafting small guys with offensive upside, bottom line, very few of his picks have panned out and hardly any have the potential too. And of the ones that do, 2 of them were 1st round picks. How good this new staff does at hitting on their picks is irrelevant to how well Pracey did.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Roy seems to emphasize drafting with needs in mind. He wanted a defenseman in the second round in 2013, he wanted a larger forward with a right shot in 2014. It's possible Pracey suggested those guys in particular. The higher the pick there are more decision makers involved anyway. The head scout isn't solely responsible for making the first round selection. Later in the draft that's what you have a head scout for.

Everyone wants to hear about how they are not ok with how things were and are but now don't really want to hear it. Is Pracey responsible for absolutely everything, no. There are a lot of others to blame. But this is the reality we are in that the NHL team is full of scrubs and there's nobody to take their place.

As I said before that I can't believe isn't a big deal to some people, the no Russians and Euros policy has to come from somewhere. Was it Pracey? Was it from higher up? Is that going to change now?

Aslan, I don't know what are even realistic options for who could take over in LE. People often suggest Roy get one of his buddies from the Q to do it. I've been impressed with Ft Wayne's coach. Not like I watch them or know much about the ECHL but they've been a top team all year and their lineup is never the same. Heard and Meurs have returned much better players (Heard in particular) and he has them all truly believing that losing even one game isn't acceptable. One neat idea i heard is he has the team split into Americans/Euros vs Canadians in practice so they always compete hard and emotional in practice, no shock it carries over into games. I don't know how it works if he could even be an option or not.

 

[Avelanche]

Sad to see him go but I'm ok with it. 2009 was an insane draft but outside of that I wouldn't say his others were anything special. Especially considering Hishon and Siemens if I recall correctly were crippling reaches. Hishon was obviously bad luck though he was looking like a great pick.
Tough to really be hard on him though. He was in a really bad position walking into an organization that had absolutely nothing aside from Shattenkirk. LA, St Louis etc. scouts can miss a lot without anybody noticing.

 

[RockLobster]

Sad to see him go but I'm ok with it. 2009 was an insane draft but outside of that I wouldn't say his others were anything special. Especially considering Hishon and Siemens if I recall correctly were crippling reaches.
Tough to really be hard on him though. He was in a really bad position walking into an organization that had absolutely nothing aside from Shattenkirk. LA, St Louis etc. scouts can miss a lot without anybody noticing.

Siemens was most definitely not a "crippling reach"...he went in the area he was expected to go.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

Sad to see him go but I'm ok with it. 2009 was an insane draft but outside of that I wouldn't say his others were anything special. Especially considering Hishon and Siemens if I recall correctly were crippling reaches. Hishon was obviously bad luck though he was looking like a great pick.
Tough to really be hard on him though. He was in a really bad position walking into an organization that had absolutely nothing aside from Shattenkirk. LA, St Louis etc. scouts can miss a lot without anybody noticing.

I feel like LA, STL, and TBay have taken a lot of high risk, high reward picks. Pracey honestly looks like he took guys that projected to do well at the CHL level, but didn't have the best NHL skill sets. It doesn't help that he basically took the exact same forward repeatedly.

 

[henchman21]

I'm always surprised there is such a debate about this... Pracey wasn't the worst, but he was average at best. You don't contend for a cup by having average drafting, it needs to be top 10 or maybe even 5. Sakic and Roy's scouting staff might not do any better than Pracey did in the end, but they have to at least try to improve on what Pracey did. They are obviously doing that.