Hawks-Oilers What Happened Since 2008?

[hawksfan79]

Hawks fan coming in peace (yeah I know). Just reading about this Yakupov debacle (sounds very Cubs like) got me to thinking....

I remember back in 2008 when the Hawks and Oilers had that great game late in the season that you guys won at the United Center which kept the Hawks out of the playoffs and I thought, these are going to be 2 teams which are battling for Western Conference supremacy for years to come. I don't want this to be perceived as rubbing it in, but I"m just curious what you guys think are the main reasons. I've seen my share of embarrassingly bad Hawks hockey (been a fan since 1990) but it seems like the Oilers should be better.

Was that 2008 Oilers team a little overrated? Management didn't do enough to augment the team? Players not developing? Just a comparison, here were the 2008 rosters sorted by most points.

[table="head]Oilers| Blackhawks
Ales Hemsky| Patrick Kane
Shawn Horcoff| Patrick Sharp
Sam Gagner| Jonathan Toews
Dustin Penner| Robert Lang
Andrew Cogliano| Dustin Byfuglien
Robert Nilsson| Jason Williams
Jarret Stoll| Duncan Keith
Tom Gilbert| Brent Seabrook
Kyle Brodziak| Martin Havlat
Joni Pitkanen| James Wisniewski
Marty Reasoner| Rene Bourque
Fernando Pisani| Tuomo Ruutu
Denis Grebeshkov| Brent Sopel
Steve Staios| Dave Bolland
Curtis Glencross| Yanic Perreault
Geoff Sanderson| Andrew Ladd
Zack Stortini| Adam Burish
Raffi Torres| Martin Lapointe
Sheldon Souray| Craig Adams
Ethan Moreau| Jim Vandermeer
Marc-Antoine Pouliot| Jack Skille
Dick Tarnstrom| Andrei Zyuzin
Ladislav Smid| Petri Kontiola
Patrick Thoresen| Kris Versteeg
Mathieu Roy| Jordan Hendry
Dwayne Roloson| Magnus Johansson
Matt Greene| Sergei Samsonov[/table]

From the Hawks point of view, adding Campbell, and eventually Hossa for Havlat after the '09 WCF, and the development of Big Buff, Ladd, Niemi, and Versteeg really pushed them over the top. So what do you guys think?

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[Sethis]

Steve Tambellini.

 

[AlowlyMcOilersfan]

we are just as confused as you are

there were a few mistakes though, such as not signing Roloson to retirement(I would still hire him as a goaltending coach 7 days a week) and trading Smyth. Certain draft choices were not the best.

 

[Comrade Blunderbore]

infuriating and outright offensive thread!

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

Kevin "6 Rings" Lowe happened.

 

[FireMacT]

your top 3 > our top 3
you developed young players much much better than we did
you drafted v well and added to your group and we haven't
Quennville > our new coach every year approach

 

[Starbuds]

The Oilers are basically a dystopian society in the form of a hockey organization. From the shills that are the local media, to the family and old friends that make up management and coaching, to ownership that threatens the common people with excluding them entirely (Seattle), to the players who seem to now be divided against eachother and are now hopeless.

If you are an author trying to expand on George Orwell's 1984, then drawing parallels from he Oilers would a great place to start.

 

[Mc5RingsAndABeer]

Hossa is a huge addition. Toews/Kane/Keith/Seabrook is a fantastic core. Thrown in all those other supporting pieces and you have a great team.

The Oilers there had pretty solid depth but lacked top end players.

 

[La Bamba]

Gagner, Cogliano and Nilsson who were suppose to be the equivalent of the Hawk's Kane & Toews didn't exactly pan out...

Gagner didn't grow at all offensively, Cogliano regressed offensively, Nilsson was a bust, Hemsky, Souray & Visnovsky couln't stay healthy, Gilbert & Gresbeshkov ended up being terrible.


Everyone was expecting Gagner, Cogliano, Nilsson to be kinda like what RNH, Hall & Eberle are but never happened.

In summary, guys who were supposed to be the franchise cornerstones didn't pan out like we thought they would.

 

[McDavidson]

Hossa is a huge addition. Toews/Kane/Keith/Seabrook is a fantastic core. Thrown in all those other supporting pieces and you have a great team.

The Oilers there had pretty solid depth but lacked top end players.

exactly this, we had a depth team, and move our depth for prospects, or let them walk. Chicago had a solid core, and great depth, which was moved for equal parts to continue to grow that team.

 

[hawksfan79]

The Oilers are basically a dystopian society in the form of a hockey organization. From the shills that are the local media, to the family and old friends that make up management and coaching, to ownership that threatens the common people with excluding them entirely (Seattle), to the players who seem to now be divided against eachother and are now hopeless.

If you are an author trying to expand on George Orwell's 1984, then drawing parallels from he Oilers would a great place to start.

Wow, that is frightening.....and comical at the same time. Here in Chicago, I can draw a parallel to the Bears (threatened to move the team to St. Petersburg in the 90s if they didn't get a new stadium or upgraded Soldier Field, family owned team with complete domination of the local media, etc). But the Bears have at least had some success over the last few years.

 

[Comrade Blunderbore]

in 4-5 years: Everyone was expecting RNH, Hall, Eberle to be kinda like what Ekblad, McDavid, Benson are but never happened...

 

[The Bored Man]

1. No defenceman nearly as good as Seabrook, let alone Keith. A top pairing like that can cover many deficiencies on a team. Nobody would be frustrated with Jeff Petry or Justin Schultz if they were #3-4-5 on the pecking order like they should be.

2. No support players that were ready to contribute at the right time. Bolland, Brouwer, Shaw, Hjalmarsson...a collection of role players on bargain contracts makes a huge difference in the playoffs.

3. Drafting and development, which relates to the first two. The Blackhawks mentioned above were taken in later rounds with the exception of Seabrook, who was a mid-first. I mean, Brouwer scored 20 goals as a seventh-round pick while Oiler fans were excited when 31st overall Tyler Pitlick played not-terribly in pre-season.

4. Consistency and progression from the "stars." Injuries have been an issue, but the supposed young guns have had many issues even when they're playing.

5. Asset mismanagement which prevented the team from improving. Trading away Smid for magic beans vs. acquiring Patrick Sharp for magic beans. There's no comparison

There are more reasons, but these come to mind pretty quickly.

 

[hawksfan79]

Gagner, Cogliano and Nilsson who were suppose to be the equivalent of the Hawk's Kane & Toews didn't exactly pan out...

Gagner didn't grow at all offensively, Cogliano regressed offensively, Nilsson was a bust, Hemsky, Souray & Visnovsky couln't stay healthy, Gilbert & Gresbeshkov ended up being terrible.


Everyone was expecting Gagner, Cogliano, Nilsson to be kinda like what RNH, Hall & Eberle are but never happened.

In summary, guys who were supposed to be the franchise cornerstones didn't pan out like we thought they would.

Yes I remember those guys looking very good early in their careers but for some reason just not panning out. I figured with the help of the high draft picks things would turn around, but the growth curve doesn't seem to be there as of yet.

Toews was obviously a very good and well rounded player when he came into the league, Kane was dynamic offensively but was very much a perimeter player and didn't play much defense early. Now, he'll go to the tough spots, and has become a passable defensive player, which a lot of people have given credit to Coach Q for bringing that out of him. Has coaching been pretty much a failure since '08?

 

[Comrade Blunderbore]

i think Pat Kane would be currently playing as a crappy 3rd liner somewhere in Columbus or Phoenix with every hockey fan hating on him with a passion, should he be drafted 1st overall by Edmonton Oilers that year.

 

[Homesick]

It hurts even more that the Oilers have played pretty well since 2008 against the Hawks but just can't do it the other 95% of the time

 

[La Bamba]

It's depressing looking back at the 07/08 season stats.

That year, Hemsky & Horcoff were basically scoring at PPG paces. Gagner put up 49 points as a 18 year old, Cogliano & Nilsson were looking like future 65 pt scorers, Penner had a decent year with 23 goals, Garon looked like a legit starter and Gilbert, Grebeshkov, Pitkanen & Souray was a good looking top 4...

Oh the horror..

 

[hawksfan79]

i think Pat Kane would be currently playing as a crappy 3rd liner somewhere in Columbus or Phoenix with every hockey fan hating on him with a passion, should he be drafted 1st overall by Edmonton Oilers that year.

To be honest, I think that was a plausible outcome for him (not necessarily if the Oilers drafted him but a lot of other teams had drafted him). Even with the vast support network he had here in Chicago, he still almost screwed it up, but it was Stan and Scotty Bowman who really kept him from getting away I think.

 

[Comrade Blunderbore]

To be honest, I think that was a plausible outcome for him (not necessarily if the Oilers drafted him but a lot of other teams had drafted him). Even with the vast support network he had here in Chicago, he still almost screwed it up, but it was Stan and Scotty Bowman who really kept him from getting away I think.

here, that's the difference between our two franchises. we don't have anyone even remotely capable of this.

 

[Oil80]

Chicago had the Bowmans
Edmonton has Lowe

Chicago has an excellent coach
Edmonton keeps hiring and firing incompetents

 

[La Bamba]

i think Pat Kane would be currently playing as a crappy 3rd liner somewhere in Columbus or Phoenix with every hockey fan hating on him with a passion, should he be drafted 1st overall by Edmonton Oilers that year.

The Hawks wouldn't had even had a chance of getting Kane if the Oilers didn't win their last regular season game against the Flames in 06/07. We would have finished 4th last and the Hawks 6th last. The entire complexion of 2 franchises could have changed if we had lost that game.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

The Hawks were able to draft and develop core players at both forward and defense who were ready to be competitive around the same time.

The Hawks got Quenneville while the Oiler have had poor coaching and don't have a coach right now who will take them to a new level - they need someone experienced

THe other thing that doesn't really get discussed but that I think had a big impact was the death of Bill Wirtz and Rocky Wirtz taking over as owner. Before Rocky took over it was to the point where the Hawks were a non-entity on the Chicago sports scene...their home games weren't even televised. Rocky wanted to bring the team back to legitimacy and was willing to do what it took to do that. He didn't have the luxury of sitting there dismissively saying he was only concerned with the paying customer - lol he didn't have many of them. There was a huge motivation to turn the team competitive to help drag it out of the wilderness. The Oiler management doesn't have that same pressure - what are the consequences to Katz if the team keeps losing? None! As long as the paying, tier 1, fans are around management is happy.

 

[hawksfan79]

here, that's the difference between our two franchises. we don't have anyone even remotely capable of this.

It's interesting, here's how much "luck" gets involved. From '97 to '08, the Hawks made the playoffs one time. And we had the worst owner in professional sports old man Bill Wirtz. I have no doubt the team would've stayed in the dumps, but, and it's horrible to say this, but it's the truth, when he died, and he son took over, things did a complete 180. It sure didn't take long after we had competent management, so maybe something can happen on that front?

 

[Comrade Blunderbore]

It's depressing looking back at the 07/08 season stats.

That year, Hemsky & Horcoff were basically scoring at PPG paces. Gagner put up 49 points as a 18 year old, Cogliano & Nilsson were looking like future 65 pt scorers, Penner had a decent year with 23 goals, Garon looked like a legit starter and Gilbert, Grebeshkov, Pitkanen & Souray was a good looking top 4...

Oh the horror..

It's depressing looking back at the 13 season stats.

That year, Hall was basically scoring at PPG pace. Yakupov put up 17 goals as a rookie, Gagner was looking like future 65 pt scorer, Eberle had a decent year with 16 goals, Dubnyk looked like a legit starter and Schultz, Schultz, Petry & Smid was a decent looking top 4...

Oh the horror..

 

[smackdaddy]

Let's just take a look at our busts:

Nilsson
Cogliano
Schremp
Omark
O'Sullivan
Gilbert
Chorney
O'Marra
Thoresen

Then we have the tier that never lived up to expectations:

Gagner
Smid
Horcoff
Jones
Grebeshkov
Cole

And of course, the ones that management pissed away:

Glencross
Visnovsky
Stoll
Greene
Pitkanen
Brodziak
Smid

There's probably more. But we can start there. It's becoming painfully obvious that this organization has a severe delusion when it comes to asset management. They cannot for the life of them evaluate players' worth. And it's also becoming very obvious that they have no idea how to develop players. Yakupov being the most high profile example of that.