Have we seen the best of Sidney Crosby?

[Tek_Jansen]

We just saw a season where a 37 year old won an Art Ross, somehow I don't fear for Sid. If he stop getting freak injuries you could easily project a similar career path to St. Louis in his later years. Crosby will get his hardware

 

[GrouperTrooper]

Ive noticed he doesn't drive the net as hard. The sick deflections have largely gone away. I haven't seen the guy deke in forever, the spinarama, and drop passes are few and far between, and he "over" passes to the dmen after gaining the zone. Is he dropping off? Just playing smarter? The points are still there. IMO it's similar to Mario- a guy who was a dynamic game breaker and then say after the lockout his game got a little slower, simpler - but still ran away with the scoring title ...

 

[Shady Machine]

Ive noticed he doesn't drive the net as hard. The sick deflections have largely gone away. I haven't seen the guy deke in forever, the spinarama, and drop passes are few and far between, and he "over" passes to the dmen after gaining the zone. Is he dropping off? Just playing smarter? The points are still there. IMO it's similar to Mario- a guy who was a dynamic game breaker and then say after the lockout his game got a little slower, simpler - but still ran away with the scoring title ...

I think you are seeing things that don't exist.

 

[GrouperTrooper]

I think you are seeing things that don't exist.

Well it should be pretty easy for you to disprove then.

When's the last time he deked on a breakaway- or even semi breakaway? How about him scoring on a sick tip? In his 50
goal season he had numerous highlight reel tips. He had a pretty sweet pass the other night to Kunitz, wasnt a Spinarama- per se but it was close enough. Im not saying he's peaked, but he definelty plays the game diferently then he did as a "Kid".

 

[billybudd]

And more importantly, Sid just doesn't look right. He isn't as engaged in the play, his board play and explosiveness are weaker, his timing and shot isn't quite right, and he isn't generating or finishing as well as he used to.

That was true 2 or 3 weeks ago, but isn't really true right this second. He probably just had a cold streak due, in part (though not completely), to Pascal Dupuis playing the worst hockey in his life and Kunitz's occasional tendency to air mail a game in from Tahiti every now and again.

Ask this again at the end of the season, maybe.

 

[SEALBound]

Nope, a truly elite winger like another Hossa would really bring Sid to the next level, especially if Kunitz stay. Think Mary-Thorton-Heatley or Alfy-Spezza-Heatley like lines...but with Sid getting a boost. I believe that had Hossa signed we would have seen a 130pt+ Sid.

I just don't think it will happen though. With Kunitz and the family mentality, I truly believe that management believes that Sid is "just fine" with Kunitz as his "Neal".

 

[billybudd]

Ive noticed he doesn't drive the net as hard. The sick deflections have largely gone away. I haven't seen the guy deke in forever, the spinarama, and drop passes are few and far between, and he "over" passes to the dmen after gaining the zone. Is he dropping off? Just playing smarter? The points are still there. IMO it's similar to Mario- a guy who was a dynamic game breaker and then say after the lockout his game got a little slower, simpler - but still ran away with the scoring title ...

To the bold, my guess is the team retired the set plays that lead to those miracle deflections when Orpik golfed a slapshot into his face, breaking his jaw. Firing bombs at your own guy is probably not good for his longevity.

The rest of this is not really correct.

 

[FDBluth]

Shero owes it to hockey to try to get Sid elite players to play with. Sid's pretty much forced Kunitz into becoming an elite player...now we just need to get rid of Dupuis. Like, seriously. There's probably never been a top line centre in history that hasn't played with at least one other true top winger for as long as Sid has. It's actually ridiculous.

 

[Shrimper]

The fact Crosby has the chance to break his best season record this year with Pascal Dupuis on his right wing should tell you how good he has to be playing. If he had a proper 1st Line RW he'd be able to hit 130+ most likely. Right now he is on 54 in 38.

So, to get a new season best he needs 65 points in 44 games. 1.47 PPG. Possible.

I think it is most definitely possible he could finish #2 in the NHL leaders board of all time as well.

 

[sanitysrequiem]

He's looked bad? He's on pace for 116 points. I'd say that's pretty good. I don't see ANYTHING that would suggest he's declining.

I'd like to see these statistics. Do you have a link?

He hasn't looked bad from an absolute standpoint, but relative to his dominance post-2009? Yes he has looked bad ( I realise how spoiled we are to watch him, but it's the truth).

Here's the study of scorers' peak post-lockout.

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2010/1/21/1261318/nhl-points-per-game-peak-age
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=903044

You'll see that around 24-25 is generally the peak for elite scorers. For all those saying that the only reason for peak scoring at ages 24-26 was because of the players in the 90s who stopped scoring as much because of a league-wide slowdown, this study was only for post-lockout, so that isn't an issue here.

Overall, I don't think a ~.1 dip in PPG compared to his career average is all that big of a deal. Hopefully when Bennett comes back he'll get top line minutes and Crosby can really start to rack them up.

It's a 0.25 dip and I think that's a huge deal. The difference between 135 and 115 is the difference between a super-elite player and a generational talent. It's a massive gulf.

Obviously it would have been nice if he didn't get hurt and would have gotten over 130 points. But to me, it's all about just staying healthy. The more years that go by with him playing full seasons the more we will forget about the couple of seasons he was hurt. That's all it comes down to.

He may not have multiple 130+ point seasons , but he will continue to put up 110+ for years to come. It's all about staying healthy and that's it. Give him a solid winger to replace dupuis and we could see him approach 130 each year.

I respect this viewpoint, but you're kind of indicating that we have in fact, then, seen his peak in 2010/11, and that he will "only" be a 110+ point player from here on out. I will always, always value peak more than longevity. Part of the reason I enjoy watching sports is to see incredible, historic feats. Crosby scoring 135 in this day and age would be one such feat, and he absolutely has/had the potential to do it. I would much rather see that than multiple 110 point seasons.

My biggest hope after he got these injuries is that Crosby would put up that "one" full dominant season, where he scored 130+ points like he is capable of. That would shut up the naysayers who say he couldn't have done it if he was healthy, and will cement his legacy because it will prove what he was capable of if he didnt have injuries.

No one is capable of that in the current NHL.

I strongly disagree. Did you watch all of his games in the 2010/11 season. Before the Winter Classic and the Steckel hit, no one could look me in the eyes and tell me with a straight face that he wouldn't have reached 130 points that year. Even with Dupuis. 2010/11 also had basically the same goals/game league average as this year.

116 points would still be his 2nd highest total, in a year where there might not be another 100 point player.

I understand this, but do you guys really think that if he wasn't healthy between 2010-2013 he wouldn't have a full season of over 130 points? All indications are that he would have - he sustained that pace for well over 200 games. The argument that it was over several seasons and he was rested is terrible because he came back from a freaking concussion and was very rusty, yet managed to keep that pace.

The fact Crosby has the chance to break his best season record this year with Pascal Dupuis on his right wing should tell you how good he has to be playing. If he had a proper 1st Line RW he'd be able to hit 130+ most likely. Right now he is on 54 in 38.

So, to get a new season best he needs 65 points in 44 games. 1.47 PPG. Possible.

I think it is most definitely possible he could finish #2 in the NHL leaders board of all time as well.

Fair enough, to all the people saying Dupuis is dragging him down. It's true. But at the same time is the 2013/14 Dupuis THAT much worse than the 2010/11 Dupuis that Crosby carried? Enough to make Crosby's production dip by 20 points? I'm not sure if I agree with that.

Saying that Crosby would hit 130 points with a better winger is all well and good, but to me that indicates that he may have passed his peak, where he could hit 130 points WITH Stone Hands Dupuis.

 

[Til the End of Time]

i think sid has peaked offensively. he's slower, heavier, and less dynamic than he was earlier in his career. still the best offensive player in the league but i think we have missed out on a truly historic season (150 pts or so) due to his injuries and dupuis.

i still have hope he can put together a 130 point year, but a lot of that hinges on dupuis. hopefully he gets hurt soon.

its really a shame shero seems to place a higher priority building around his loser goalie than in one of the games greatest players. just another mark against shero.

 

[Waffle Fries]

We just saw a season where a 37 year old won an Art Ross, somehow I don't fear for Sid. If he stop getting freak injuries you could easily project a similar career path to St. Louis in his later years. Crosby will get his hardware

Exactly

We have not seen the best of a 26 year old Sidney Crosby. As everyone else has said, get him a winger that actually helps him and see what he can do.

This thread is ridiculous. You can't parade around a statement about when player's hit their prime because every player is different.

Sid started the season at a 2PPG pace and then Dupuis started playing the worst hockey of his career, and he hit a cold streak. Cold streaks happen. Luckily for us Sid's 'cold streak' play is still better than the rest of the league.

Now he's on a 10 game point streak with 18 points in 10 games, and he looks like himself again.

 

[eXile59]

To the bold, my guess is the team retired the set plays that lead to those miracle deflections when Orpik golfed a slapshot into his face, breaking his jaw. Firing bombs at your own guy is probably not good for his longevity.

The rest of this is not really correct.

I've seen Sid in front of the net a lot still. I think it has more to do with us not having a point guy that can get the puck to the net.

That was Gonchar's best attributes. There was no hesitation in his game & his shot was so smooth it always found a way to the net. In the current NHL you have half a second before those lanes close & Letang or whom ever is playing there will hesitate or just flat our stare people down. Niskanen's actually been a little better though.

 

[Shady Machine]

Have we seen the best of Jordan Staal?

 

[eXile59]

i think sid has peaked offensively. he's slower, heavier, and less dynamic than he was earlier in his career. still the best offensive player in the league but i think we have missed out on a truly historic season (150 pts or so) due to his injuries and dupuis.

i still have hope he can put together a 130 point year, but a lot of that hinges on dupuis. hopefully he gets hurt soon.

its really a shame shero seems to place a higher priority building around his loser goalie than in one of the games greatest players. just another mark against shero.

That would have never been possible for Sid. That would have been possible for Mario & Sid has never been on that level. Sid is more on the Jagr prime level which is 120 point seasons playing in this low scoring era.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Oh, ****. If Crosby has peaked then Malkin definitely has, this team is screwed, blow it up, trade them both. We might still be able to get McDavid for them.

 

[Til the End of Time]

That would have never been possible for Sid. That would have been possible for Mario & Sid has never been on that level. Sid is more on the Jagr prime level which is 120 point seasons playing in this low scoring era.

i really think it would have been possible. take away that high ankle sprain and concussions, and give him a parise/hossa winger for a few seasons, i honestly think he could have hit 150 points.

i really think crosby's development has been severely hampered by these injuries. i think people forget just how amazing he was coming out of juniors. the player we are seeing today is great, but i think he should be greater, and could have been a top 10 player of all-time.

shero has also done a horrific job of giving sid help on his wing, which sucks a lot.

 

[billybudd]

I've seen Sid in front of the net a lot still. I think it has more to do with us not having a point guy that can get the puck to the net.

That was Gonchar's best attributes. There was no hesitation in his game & his shot was so smooth it always found a way to the net. In the current NHL you have half a second before those lanes close & Letang or whom ever is playing there will hesitate or just flat our stare people down. Niskanen's actually been a little better though.

Oh he's going to the net. I just don't see the set plays where someone would fire a puck at him while he's lateral to it any more.

But you're right it might be presumptive of me to think the play's been abandoned, when it might just be we don't have anyone confident enough to try it right this very second.

 

[Waffle Fries]

i really think it would have been possible. take away that high ankle sprain and concussions, and give him a parise/hossa winger for a few seasons, i honestly think he could have hit 150 points.

i really think crosby's development has been severely hampered by these injuries. i think people forget just how amazing he was coming out of juniors. the player we are seeing today is great, but i think he should be greater, and could have been a top 10 player of all-time.

shero has also done a horrific job of giving sid help on his wing, which sucks a lot.

If Sid hit 150 points in today's NHL, it quite possibly could have been seen as the greatest season of all time. With expectations that high, you're only setting yourself up for disappointment.

I don't think Crosby's development has been affected by these injuries. Each time he comes back just as strong as he was before. Last season was the first season he had after his concussion/neck issues and was one of the best of his career. I don't see anything stopping him from being considered one of the top 10 players of all time once he retires.

 

[Ally22]

Oh, ****. If Crosby has peaked then Malkin definitely has, this team is screwed, blow it up, trade them both. We might still be able to get McDavid for them.

Trade them both for Getzlaf. The true best centre in the NHL.

 

[Til the End of Time]

If Sid hit 150 points in today's NHL, it quite possibly could have been seen as the greatest season of all time. With expectations that high, you're only setting yourself up for disappointment.

I don't think Crosby's development has been affected by these injuries. Each time he comes back just as strong as he was before. Last season was the first season he had after his concussion/neck issues and was one of the best of his career. I don't see anything stopping him from being considered one of the top 10 players of all time once he retires.

fair enough, but i think he was/is capable of such historic seasons.

and i dont buy that hes always come back as strong as before. he was clearly slowed by that high ankle sprain when he returned. iirc, he returned, player a game or two, then missed another 10 or so games. when he did permanently return, he was noticeably slower with worse acceleration. it even affected him the following season, when he looked slow and heavy and had a meager 103 points. it routinely takes guys more than a year to fully recover from a high ankle sprain and sid is no exception.

he was great last season but i think most people here agree he was not as good as his dominating '10-'11. that '10-'11 season was the best of his career, i think most people would agree. he has yet to return to that level since his concussion problems.

concussions are serious business with significant long-term affects. crosby is still great, but i think there is a good chance he is an inferior player because of his history of head trauma.

 

[66-30-33]

Nope, we have yet to see Crosby in full form. Once we get him his winger, that's when we will see the best of Crosby and he'll be so far ahead of the rest of the NHL it's not even funny. No more days of shutting him down this easily, it'll be all out possession time. Maybe even a few 140 point seasons from him. Imagine if he had 140 points, next guy had 95? haha.

 

[Waffle Fries]

fair enough, but i think he was/is capable of such historic seasons.

and i dont buy that hes always come back as strong as before. he was clearly slowed by that high ankle sprain when he returned. iirc, he returned, player a game or two, then missed another 10 or so games. when he did permanently return, he was noticeably slower with worse acceleration. it even affected him the following season, when he looked slow and heavy and had a meager 103 points. it routinely takes guys more than a year to fully recover from a high ankle sprain and sid is no exception.

he was great last season but i think most people here agree he was not as good as his dominating '10-'11. that '10-'11 season was the best of his career, i think most people would agree. he has yet to return to that level since his concussion problems.

concussions are serious business with significant long-term affects. crosby is still great, but i think there is a good chance he is an inferior player because of his history of head trauma.

I'll give you the ankle sprain. That did take some time for him to get back to where was. As far as 10-11, it was his best, but a large part of that is he was shooting more than he is now.

I think he can return to that level if he makes the commitment to start throwing more pucks at the net. Of course, it would be helpful if one of his linemates could complete tape to tape passes that enable him to do so.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Like people have said, we haven't seen what Sid can really do until he's not carrying around a cement block like Dupuis on his RW.

 

[Blitzburgh87*]

Trade them both for Getzlaf. The true best centre in the NHL.

I lol'd. Good job