Have the canucks quietly built up a solid prospect pool?

Hoghandler

Registered User
Jul 9, 2019
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930
Aaaaaaaand, of course, the usual suspects have drafted us into another BUT GILLIS to avoid talking about what an incompetent buffoon Jim Benning is.

Okay, let's forget about Gillis. By now everyone knows his draft record was absolutely putrid. Nothing more needs to be said.

You want to talk about Benning and what an incompetent buffoon he is. Now is your chance to show us how much smarter you are. Considering you just said Benning sat back and let Eric Crawford run the 2014 draft - and picks outside the 1st rd aren't made by the GM, how did you stack up to Benning?

2015- Boeser
2016- Juolevi
2017- Pettersson
2018- Hughes
2019- Podkolzin

Here are my picks-

2015- Konecny
2016- Tkachuk
2017- Glass
2018- Hughes
2019- Caufield

MS, what does your list look like compared to Benning's?
 

Siludin

Registered User
Dec 9, 2010
7,371
5,304
I would not use the word "solid" to describe the Canucks prospect pool at this point in time.
Going by the poll on the main board, the Canucks are currently 7th in the league. I would call that "solid". There are very high-percentage players at every position in the system. Podkolzin, Woo, Dipietro are as good a top F/D/G combo as anyone in the league, and I use those as examples only because I see guys like Demko and Hughes as graduated, even though by conventional definition they are not.

The concern right now is Utica's role in developing these players into the NHL. It seems like it's ideal to spend as little time in Utica as possible, because it's downhill if you are there for more than 15 games or so.
 
Feb 24, 2017
5,094
2,865
Okay, let's forget about Gillis. By now everyone knows his draft record was absolutely putrid. Nothing more needs to be said.

You want to talk about Benning and what an incompetent buffoon he is. Now is your chance to show us how much smarter you are. Considering you just said Benning sat back and let Eric Crawford run the 2014 draft - and picks outside the 1st rd aren't made by the GM, how did you stack up to Benning?

2015- Boeser
2016- Juolevi
2017- Pettersson
2018- Hughes
2019- Podkolzin

Here are my picks-

2015- Konecny
2016- Tkachuk
2017- Glass
2018- Hughes
2019- Caufield

MS, what does your list look like compared to Benning's?
In the years I followed closely enough I wanted tkachuk, pettersson, Hughes, and this year I was too devastated that Zegras went 1 pick before us to care.
 

MarkusNaslund19

Registered User
Dec 28, 2005
5,478
7,854
I wanted

2014 Ehlers
2015 (didn't have an educated opinion)
2016 Tkachuk
2017 Pettersson/Glass
2018 Hughes
2019 Boldy/Newhook (but I'm happy with Pod).
 

Canucks1096

Registered User
Feb 13, 2016
5,608
1,667
These are the players I wanted

2014 Ehlers
2015 don't remember
2016 PLD
2017 Pettersson/Glass
2018 Hughes/Wahlstrom
2019 Turcotte
 

Nick1219

Registered User
Mar 15, 2012
1,285
492
Okay, let's forget about Gillis. By now everyone knows his draft record was absolutely putrid. Nothing more needs to be said.

You want to talk about Benning and what an incompetent buffoon he is. Now is your chance to show us how much smarter you are. Considering you just said Benning sat back and let Eric Crawford run the 2014 draft - and picks outside the 1st rd aren't made by the GM, how did you stack up to Benning?

2015- Boeser
2016- Juolevi
2017- Pettersson
2018- Hughes
2019- Podkolzin

Here are my picks-

2015- Konecny
2016- Tkachuk
2017- Glass
2018- Hughes
2019- Caufield

MS, what does your list look like compared to Benning's?
Takes a lot of effort to go back but... MS’s picks:

2018 - Dobson
2017 - Vilardi
2016 - Was “okay” with the Juolevi pick. Was upset with Canucks luck that we didn’t get an impact player through the lottery.

Said the following about Tkachuk:

“I think he'll play and be a decent scoring-line winger, but I also think his situation has HUGELY inflated his draft stock relative to his actual ability. I can't recall a more favourable situation for any draftee in recent memory. If he'd scored 75 points in 60 games this year in Guelph or Mississauga, I don't think he's rated top-5.”
 

RobertKron

Registered User
Sep 1, 2007
15,521
8,666
Okay, let's forget about Gillis. By now everyone knows his draft record was absolutely putrid. Nothing more needs to be said.

You want to talk about Benning and what an incompetent buffoon he is. Now is your chance to show us how much smarter you are. Considering you just said Benning sat back and let Eric Crawford run the 2014 draft - and picks outside the 1st rd aren't made by the GM, how did you stack up to Benning?

2015- Boeser
2016- Juolevi
2017- Pettersson
2018- Hughes
2019- Podkolzin

Here are my picks-

2015- Konecny
2016- Tkachuk
2017- Glass
2018- Hughes
2019- Caufield

MS, what does your list look like compared to Benning's?

Why would this be relevant?
 
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PuckMunchkin

Very Nice, Very Evil!
Dec 13, 2006
12,431
10,121
Lapland
Are you being serious?
stop making these bad excuses
Gms have a big say in the picks in the top50. Gillis was awful....like the worst in the NHL awful....end of story

No they dont. They have an NHL team to run.

Why would this be relevant?

Because the goal is to build a defense of Jim, not to actually assess him or the prospect pool we have.
 
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tantalum

Hope for the best. Expect the worst
Sponsor
Apr 2, 2002
25,142
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Missouri
Yeah but we've graduated most of our top prospects so the cupboards are a bit thin once again. I get it though it could be a lot better but it could also be a lot worse. At least we have a good core of Pettersson-Boeser-Hughes to build off of (Horvat not included because he was Gillis-era).

Other teams also graduate top prospects every year. That's a poor excuse for the lack of depth the still exists throughout the organization given how bad the team has been. Could it be a a lot worse? maybe it could. But here you have a basement team over the last 4 years and you typically need to do the bulk of your building through the draft (top end talent and organizational depth). How does such a team truly catch up and PASS the teams they chase if they don't have a clear advantage in this regard? I don't think a team can.
 

Tobi Wan Kenobi

Registered User
May 25, 2011
5,284
94
Vancouver
Okay, let's forget about Gillis. By now everyone knows his draft record was absolutely putrid. Nothing more needs to be said.

You want to talk about Benning and what an incompetent buffoon he is. Now is your chance to show us how much smarter you are. Considering you just said Benning sat back and let Eric Crawford run the 2014 draft - and picks outside the 1st rd aren't made by the GM, how did you stack up to Benning?

2015- Boeser
2016- Juolevi
2017- Pettersson
2018- Hughes
2019- Podkolzin

Here are my picks-

2015- Konecny
2016- Tkachuk
2017- Glass
2018- Hughes
2019- Caufield

MS, what does your list look like compared to Benning's?

WTF are you talking about. In 2014 Benning's exact quote was "I took the first round and left the rest of the draft to our scouts"
 

PavelBure10

The Russian Rocket
Aug 25, 2009
5,047
6,924
Okanagan
Our prospects are ok, I would of rated the Canucks much higher if Juolevi, Lind, and Gadjovich progressed. Still have hope in Gaudette, but even Gaudette hasn't been all that impressive so far in the NHL. With all of the draft picks in the top 10, you would of thought our prospect pool would of been much stronger.
The Rangers just started their rebuild and seem to be way ahead of us on their future assets. With all of the great picks we had, our prospect pool should be much greater.

The Canucks have good prospects, not great ones.
 

sting101

Registered User
Feb 8, 2012
15,973
14,902
WTF are you talking about. In 2014 Benning's exact quote was "I took the first round and left the rest of the draft to our scouts"
Do you have the quote? I thought it was mostly about him wanting to sit back and oversee them and let them do their thing. Chibisov getting Tryamkin Gradin Forsling etc etc. Later rounds stuff

The intel i have from 2014 was Virtanen was already decided upon before JB arrived. They told his agent over a month before the draft if he's still there at 6 they were taking him....obviously Benning agreed with them in the end, so i'm not trying to make excuses for him picking Jake just adding that the staff at the top wanted him and this overruled everyone BS is just that. Although it is likely arguments were made for Nylander or Ehlers etc.

From what i also understand was Demko was heavily scouted by Boston and Benning was a big fan. This notion that GMs are not responsible for 2nd rounders and have a lot of say is sketchy at best.....i would expect many 2nd round picks for teams in the top50 are players that they may have looked at as 1st rounders with plenty of input from the top.

The McCann selection was also interesting. There was a report over a yr ago about Benning giving his scouts heck for not doing better identifying Pastrnak. At the draft he was bullish about McCann though. There is that video of Garth Snow trying to move up and Benning not wanting to do that because he wants McCann

Bottom line is the GM wears the draft. If he's unhappy with his scouts later round selections then he better get pro active and set the methods and standards or change the personnel. Gillis talked a big game (Detroit model) but in 6yrs was the worst in the NHL

People trying to paint a diversion to these facts regarding who wears the responsibility of the draft are delusional. Any respecatabe analysis of a teams drafting would be properly addressed as Jim Benning and his staff are doing a xxxxx job at drafting. Not Mike Gillis is certainly being overrun by his scouting staff and that is having a negative effect on an otherwise good GM. Being able to make quick decisions to steer a ship in the right direction is the ultimate responsibility of the GM/President. Gillis knew of the struggles at the draft table that had Nonis being heavily criticized and he also knew that Delorme had a poor reputation and was being heavily criticized from the media and Canucks community. He had direct quotes about his change in philosophy regarding the focus on IQ and Hodgson Schroeder, was bullish enough about Rodin to say they had him as a 1st rounder and Sauve had NHL level tools. The fact is he did make changes they just were the wrong one's and the drafting continued to suck,

Also will add that the witch hunt attching Benning to Bostons failure at the draft table is pretty funny considering he was the AGM below Neely Chiarelli and Wayne Smith who was the director of Amateur scouting. Jim would have essentially been the 3rd or 4th voice regarding 1st rounders top50 guys and after that it would have been Smith and his staff. This is the quote of Jim's role in Boston:

"He serves as an advisor to General Manager Peter Chiarelli on all matters pertaining to player evaluation, trades and free agent signings, in addition to assisting the General Manager in overseeing all individuals in their specific duties for the Bruins."

so while he bears some responsibilty it is pretty minor to say the least and when your helping advise a team that wins a Stanley Cup and boast one of the best records in the NHL during that era it's an odd focal point with an agenda to say the least to paint Benning as responsible for all of Bostons shit picks and dismiss the excellent job they did at adding the components they needed to win
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

Registered User
Oct 1, 2017
26,215
16,114
Do you have the quote? I thought it was mostly about him wanting to sit back and oversee them and let them do their thing. Chibisov getting Tryamkin Gradin Forsling etc etc. Later rounds stuff

The intel i have from 2014 was Virtanen was already decided upon before JB arrived. They told his agent over a month before the draft if he's still there at 6 they were taking him....obviously Benning agreed with them in the end, so i'm not trying to make excuses for him picking Jake just adding that the staff at the top wanted him and this overruled everyone BS is just that. Although it is likely arguments were made for Nylander or Ehlers etc.

From what i also understand was Demko was heavily scouted by Boston and Benning was a big fan. This notion that GMs are not responsible for 2nd rounders and have a lot of say is sketchy at best.....i would expect many 2nd round picks for teams in the top50 are players that they may have looked at as 1st rounders with plenty of input from the top.

The McCann selection was also interesting. There was a report over a yr ago about Benning giving his scouts heck for not doing better identifying Pastrnak. At the draft he was bullish about McCann though. There is that video of Garth Snow trying to move up and Benning not wanting to do that because he wants McCann

Bottom line is the GM wears the draft. If he's unhappy with his scouts later round selections then he better get pro active and set the methods and standards or change the personnel. Gillis talked a big game (Detroit model) but in 6yrs was the worst in the NHL

People trying to paint a diversion to these facts regarding who wears the responsibility of the draft are delusional. Any respecatabe analysis of a teams drafting would be properly addressed as Jim Benning and his staff are doing a xxxxx job at drafting. Not Mike Gillis is certainly being overrun by his scouting staff and that is having a negative effect on an otherwise good GM. Being able to make quick decisions to steer a ship in the right direction is the ultimate responsibility of the GM/President. Gillis knew of the struggles at the draft table that had Nonis being heavily criticized and he also knew that Delorme had a poor reputation and was being heavily criticized from the media and Canucks community. He had direct quotes about his change in philosophy regarding the focus on IQ and Hodgson Schroeder, was bullish enough about Rodin to say they had him as a 1st rounder and Sauve had NHL level tools. The fact is he did make changes they just were the wrong one's and the drafting continued to suck,

Also will add that the witch hunt attching Benning to Bostons failure at the draft table is pretty funny considering he was the AGM below Neely Chiarelli and Wayne Smith who was the director of Amateur scouting. Jim would have essentially been the 3rd or 4th voice regarding 1st rounders top50 guys and after that it would have been Smith and his staff. This is the quote of Jim's role in Boston:

"He serves as an advisor to General Manager Peter Chiarelli on all matters pertaining to player evaluation, trades and free agent signings, in addition to assisting the General Manager in overseeing all individuals in their specific duties for the Bruins."

so while he bears some responsibilty it is pretty minor to say the least and when your helping advise a team that wins a Stanley Cup and boast one of the best records in the NHL during that era it's an odd focal point with an agenda to say the least to paint Benning as responsible for all of Bostons **** picks and dismiss the excellent job they did at adding the components they needed to win

Benning did say on the radio that he was very familiar with Thatcher Demko,..obviously because TD played for Boston College (and I believe they played at the Garden)..So there was obviously input there.

Gillis had an embargo on drafting Russian players, Benning lifted it..enter Tryamkin.
 

megatron

Registered User
Dec 11, 2016
270
395
Gillis had an embargo on drafting Russian players, Benning lifted it..enter Tryamkin.

Enter tryamkin followed promptly by exit Tryamkin. Benning should have kept that recommendation in place.... no worries Benning is learning.. oh wait!

Low quality comment aside, given our place in the standings our prospect pool seems average. This regime has had some nice hits with Patterson and Boeser but also some flops like Virtanen and Joulevi.
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

Registered User
Oct 1, 2017
26,215
16,114
Enter tryamkin followed promptly by exit Tryamkin. Benning should have kept that recommendation in place.... no worries Benning is learning.. oh wait!

Low quality comment aside, given our place in the standings our prospect pool seems average. This regime has had some nice hits with Patterson and Boeser but also some flops like Virtanen and Joulevi.
Looks like it could be enter Tryamkin again (as if he's the first ever Russian player to bolt home for the KHL..?)...

Virtanen is an NHL player who has improved every season...Juolevi has been constantly injured..You're not going to be hitting home runs at every draft.
 

Hoghandler

Registered User
Jul 9, 2019
1,921
930
Takes a lot of effort to go back but... MS’s picks:

2018 - Dobson
2017 - Vilardi
2016 - Was “okay” with the Juolevi pick. Was upset with Canucks luck that we didn’t get an impact player through the lottery.

Said the following about Tkachuk:

“I think he'll play and be a decent scoring-line winger, but I also think his situation has HUGELY inflated his draft stock relative to his actual ability. I can't recall a more favourable situation for any draftee in recent memory. If he'd scored 75 points in 60 games this year in Guelph or Mississauga, I don't think he's rated top-5.”

Interesting. Here is how MS did compared to Benning the moron.

2015- Merkley (Boeser)
2016- Juolevi (Juolevi)
2017- Villardi (Pettersson)
2018- Dobson (Hughes)
2019- Caufield (Podkolzin)

I like the Caufield pick. Not a fan of any of the other selections though.
 

Jyrki21

2021-12-05
Sponsor
I'm not claiming anything. I'm contesting a claim for which no evidence was provided.
Apart from common sense, here you go – I’ve posted it before:

2DF01F2F-111B-4C4A-BC69-BA210502BEC6_zpsje5loc9a.png
 

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bandwagonesque

I eat Kraft Dinner and I vote
Mar 5, 2014
7,153
5,471
Apart from common sense, here you go – I’ve posted it before:

2DF01F2F-111B-4C4A-BC69-BA210502BEC6_zpsje5loc9a.png
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this use a single season's point total as a measure of team success? Apart from how dubious that would appear to be as a measure of the success of a team's prospect accumulation over the course of several seasons, it wasn't the measure suggested by the person who brought it up. He proposed to use the period of Benning's tenure.
 

bandwagonesque

I eat Kraft Dinner and I vote
Mar 5, 2014
7,153
5,471
Enter tryamkin followed promptly by exit Tryamkin. Benning should have kept that recommendation in place.... no worries Benning is learning.. oh wait!

Low quality comment aside, given our place in the standings our prospect pool seems average. This regime has had some nice hits with Patterson and Boeser but also some flops like Virtanen and Joulevi.
Incidentally, Tryamkin recently said on a livestream that he's definitely coming back to Vancouver as soon as his KHL contract is up.
 
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VanillaCoke

Registered User
Oct 30, 2013
25,465
11,925
I'm not claiming anything. I'm contesting a claim for which no evidence was provided.
Tbf he was right about the premise, thanks to jyrki for posting the data.
Im not sure "common sense" is a blanket answer when teams so often draft poorly regardless of position.
It shoukd be bottom 10 teams have top 10 pools. Period. But the reality is probably more grey than black and white
 

Hoghandler

Registered User
Jul 9, 2019
1,921
930
Incidentally, Tryamkin recently said on a livestream that he's definitely coming back to Vancouver as soon as his KHL contract is up.

Where did this happen?

I would be shocked if he doesn't come back to the NHL in a year. Way too much money to leave on the table. Not to mention NHL players are treated so much better than guys in Russia.

Would be nice if he brings Podkolzin with him. Add a couple more physical specimens to the mix.
 

bandwagonesque

I eat Kraft Dinner and I vote
Mar 5, 2014
7,153
5,471
Tbf he was right about the premise, thanks to jyrki for posting the data.
Im not sure "common sense" is a blanket answer when teams so often draft poorly regardless of position.
It shoukd be bottom 10 teams have top 10 pools. Period. But the reality is probably more grey than black and white
No relevant data was posted. He used point totals from this season only. The most conspicuous poor-performance good-farm data point, the Sentaors, had 99, 85 and 98 points 2015-2017, and didn't have the 1st rounder that resulted from the performance represented on the graph. Another, the Ducks, whose position on the graph using last season's point totals alone would appear to support Jyrki21's conclusion, had 116, 109, 103, 105 and 101 points the 5 seasons before the previous one. The graph did nothing to prove, disprove or suggest any premise.
 
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