Hasn't the league decided who is the greatest hockey player?

[Rhiessan71]

Couple of points here are that being a better skater can help you be a much better defensive guy and today more players are forced by their coaches and systems to play a defensive game, this transition really started in the 1980's and is pretty much complete today as even most stars are asked to play defensively as well.

I think people are trying to make the case of Orr being better than Gretzky by determining what Gretzky wasn't (a defensive player) instead of focusing on what he was.

Positional play shouldn't hurt a player IMO because when it comes down to it Goalies are the most important players on the ice, ie. a goalie like Hasek in his peak can have more influence in the amount of wins a team gets and this could be considered by some as another yardstick as to who the greatest player was of all time.

At the end of the day there probably should be 3 all time great lists, one for forwards a second one for Dmen and another for goalies as it would bring more clarity to the matter IMO.

Skating, while obviously an asset does not make you better defensively, just ask Rod Langway heh.
All speed does is allow you to get into a better defensive position sooner but doesn't mean anything if you're not willing to engage or work for it.
Offense is fun, defense is work and getting the "white" collar guy to take out the trash is a lot harder than getting the "blue" collar guy to it.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Skating by itself doesn't make a player better at anything of course but take 2 equal guys in all other areas, never mind the size of modern guys, and I'll take the speed guy 9 times out of 10.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Skating by itself doesn't make a player better at anything of course but take 2 equal guys in all other areas, never mind the size of modern guys, and I'll take the speed guy 9 times out of 10.

Oh no doubt.
I played goal for over 26 years making it as far as bench warming Jr B and about 7-8 years ago, I got a call from a buddy I work with.
He rented the ice at the Icepark in Hespler and wanted to know if I wanted to come out and play goal for 'em, just practicing and stuff.
Now, I knew going in that my buddy grew up with Maltby's brother but it was quite a shock to walk into the dressing room and seeing both Kirk and Draper suiting up.
Ok, now for the point of this story.
You see out of the 20 or so guys on the ice neither Draps or Maltby were the best shooters or the best passers or even the best stickhandlers but they were by far the fastest, like ridiculous speed.
Even though the two of them had the most chances due to their speed, there were a couple other guys with much better hands that scored on me more.

Don't get me wrong, speed kills but speed does not equal talent.

 

[VMBM]

Skating, while obviously an asset does not make you better defensively, just ask Rod Langway heh.

Or Bobby Clarke.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Salary Cap Parity

The salary cap is designed to create parity, therefore, if it's working the non-salary cap era teams should have larger extremes than those in the salary cap era. The elite teams should be better compared to the rest of the league (which is evidenced by dynasties) and the bad teams should be worse compared to the rest of the league.

Using this line of thought, we would expect the 3rd and 4th lines of the elite teams of the past to be better than those of the elite teams of today. We would also expect the 3rd and 4th lines of the worst teams in the league today to be better than those of the past.

Again, this is assuming that the salary cap is working to create a more balanced league

Salary cap parity is a far cry from talent and skill parity.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Salary cap parity is a far cry from talent and skill parity.

Agree, that's why I put that little disclaimer at the end of my post. Not only are there many things a team can spend money on to improve their team that are not affected by the salary cap at all, but there are plenty of instances where a player is better than another player that makes more money. Also, many teams do not come close to spending the salary cap limit.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Speed and Context

Well for the case of Bourque the number 1 reason is experience, same goes for Gordie Howe. Both guys don't have to rely on purely physical skills to do the same things in year number 1 than in year number 20. The same holds true for just about any profession or sport

Also the case with Howe is playing time, I highly doubt that he got a feature role at the age of 18 and even at the age of 51 his scoring was inflated in that year with the influx of the 4 WHA teams.

You also have given no indication of how Borque or Howe actually maintained the same pace at age 18 to their final seasons either.

Are you actually going to tell me that you watched NHL games in 79-80, or in Orr's day and that they were on the same level, skill, speed and talent wise, as today?

Or that only equipment is to account for the changes?
If that's the case then I have to suggest hat you and I are not watching the same NHL games.

The speed that catches your attention in today`s game is a function of shift length.That 30-45 second shifts are played at a faster pace than 1 1/2 - 2 minute shifts should not be surprising. That the 100 meter dash is run at a faster pace than the 1500 meter race is not surprising either.

Still it comes down to skill and execution. The greater the distance or time places a greater demand on skill. 100 meter dash does not require cornering or jockeying for lane position, A 30 to 45 second shift places very limited skill demands beyond skating. Puck handling is minimal and for the most part yhe player is concerned with avoiding a critical mistake.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Average

I'm not even exactly sure what you are trying to say to be honest.
When you have such a disparity of talent in the league like in the 70's, it goes without saying that the expansion teams are going to have players on their bottom lines that prolly shouldn't even be in the league.
While at the same time the established teams had guys on their bottom lines that prolly could of been 2nd or maybe even 1rst line players on those expansion teams.

I'm still not sure how in the hell you thought you could mention the Gainey line and pass it off as being anywhere close to representing what was an average 3rd line in the 70's.
I'm sorry but that's ridiculous.




So what, you're still picking out the best of the best for examples while ignoring what the other 18-29 teams had.
When talking about average, you sure as hell don't just list the best second line center in the league and end it there now do you.

If what you're trying to argue is that the Habs/Bruins of the 70's or the Isles/Oilers of the 80's prolly had better 3rd/4th lines than what is on the top teams today, you're prolly right but I guarantee you the bottom teams from those times also had far worse 3rd/4th lines than the bottom teams of today.

Average.Rather simple. Step-up and define the 10-12th teams from the 1975-85 era. Then define their third or fourth line and we will look at actaul comparables as opposed to some phantom or hypothetical average team/lines/players.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Parity

Agree, that's why I put that little disclaimer at the end of my post. Not only are there many things a team can spend money on to improve their team that are not affected by the salary cap at all, but there are plenty of instances where a player is better than another player that makes more money. Also, many teams do not come close to spending the salary cap limit.

Salary cap is just another variable in the parity debate.Two views of parity. Either raise the talent levels and distribution in an equitable fashion or live with a situation where strengths and weaknesses cancel each other and you have competitive but waterdown games.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Average.Rather simple. Step-up and define the 10-12th teams from the 1975-85 era. Then define their third or fourth line and we will look at actaul comparables as opposed to some phantom or hypothetical average team/lines/players.

I perfectly understand what it would take to produce an average and I'll work on making up such a list.

What still confuses me though was your attempt to mention some of the very best 3rd lines or second line centers in your argument.
I'm afraid I still need for you to explain exactly what point you were trying to make with those.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Oh no doubt.
I played goal for over 26 years making it as far as bench warming Jr B and about 7-8 years ago, I got a call from a buddy I work with.
He rented the ice at the Icepark in Hespler and wanted to know if I wanted to come out and play goal for 'em, just practicing and stuff.
Now, I knew going in that my buddy grew up with Maltby's brother but it was quite a shock to walk into the dressing room and seeing both Kirk and Draper suiting up.
Ok, now for the point of this story.
You see out of the 20 or so guys on the ice neither Draps or Maltby were the best shooters or the best passers or even the best stickhandlers but they were by far the fastest, like ridiculous speed.
Even though the two of them had the most chances due to their speed, there were a couple other guys with much better hands that scored on me more.

Don't get me wrong, speed kills but speed does not equal talent.

so we are talking about a pickup game here, where the 2 guys mentioned probably were taking it easy on you. I understand that other guys seemed to be better shooters on the day but the comparison doesn't translate all that well to the NHL IMO.

 

[Rhiessan71]

so we are talking about a pickup game here, where the 2 guys mentioned probably were taking it easy on you. I understand that other guys seemed to be better shooters on the day but the comparison doesn't translate all that well to the NHL IMO.

The point is that there are plenty of guys out there with high level skillsets but not the speed/skating to make it on a professional level.

I think people take for granted the speed of the game today and fail to realise that even one of the slowest guys in the league like Hall Gill would be one of the faster players in most of the upper tier semi-pro leagues.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Comparables

I perfectly understand what it would take to produce an average and I'll work on making up such a list.

What still confuses me though was your attempt to mention some of the very best 3rd lines or second line centers in your argument.
I'm afraid I still need for you to explain exactly what point you were trying to make with those.

Simple fact that quality lines were 3rd or 4th lines on championship teams 25-35 years ago, You do not see that today even on championship teams.

Likewise centers - Pittsburgh with Crosby,Malkin and Staal is a bit of an anomaly and they do not have the support wingers to take advantage. The issue is that there is a perception that with Euros, Americans, etc the talent pool is deeper in theory but in reality it appears that the high end talent - Crosby, Ovechkin, Stamkos, etc is comparable to previous generations BUT there is a drag at the support talent level and the 3rd/4th line level.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The point is that there are plenty of guys out there with high level skillsets but not the speed/skating to make it on a professional level.
I think people take for granted the speed of the game today and fail to realise that even one of the slowest guys in the league like Hall Gill would be one of the faster players in most of the upper tier semi-pro leagues.

I would think there are also guys with NHL speed out there without the NHL skill set.

But even more important may be knowing how to play the game.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Simple fact that quality lines were 3rd or 4th lines on championship teams 25-35 years ago, You do not see that today even on championship teams.

Likewise centers - Pittsburgh with Crosby,Malkin and Staal is a bit of an anomaly and they do not have the support wingers to take advantage. The issue is that there is a perception that with Euros, Americans, etc the talent pool is deeper in theory but in reality it appears that the high end talent - Crosby, Ovechkin, Stamkos, etc is comparable to previous generations BUT there is a drag at the support talent level and the 3rd/4th line level.

I'd like to see more than anecdotal evidence to back this up, as I find it absurd.

You are trying to sell the league was deeper in the 70s, after tripling in size and having been steadily siphoned off of from the WHA, before the US made much of an impact and before any europeans were coming over?

Since 1980, the league has increased by only 43% in over 30 years (compared to 300% in only 7 years post-expansion during the 70s); the USA and Europe are major markets; and you do not have a competing N. American league.

In what way was the typical 3rd line better in the 70s than it is today? Because it was all canadian?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Comparables

I'd like to see more than anecdotal evidence to back this up, as I find it absurd.

You are trying to sell the league was deeper in the 70s, after tripling in size and having been steadily siphoned off of from the WHA, before the US made much of an impact and before any europeans were coming over?

Since 1980, the league has increased by only 43% in over 30 years (compared to 300% in only 7 years post-expansion during the 70s); the USA and Europe are major markets; and you do not have a competing N. American league.

In what way was the typical 3rd line better in the 70s than it is today? Because it was all canadian?

Start by taking apart your percentages and replacing them with real numbers.

1967 O6 NHL required a core of 120 players increased to 240 players after the 1967 expansion then to 420 players after the WHA was absorbed.Today with a thirty-team league and 23 player rosters you require a core of 690 players. How you managed only 43% over 30 years when the increase in core players went from 420 to 690 is beyond me. Fact of the matter is that today's NHL requires 450 more core players than it did for the 1967 - 68 season.

Taking an arbitrary season from the 1970's:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points
could play the game at a high level. St. Louis had Ungar, Berenson, Sanderson, Pittsburgh had Larouche, Apps Jr, Shock, Chicago had Mikita, Martin, Boldirev.

Nice balance between offense and defense with well rounded games and skill sets.

Take it to the elite team level - Flyers had Clarke, MacLeish, Kindrachuk, Bridgeman. Take it to the weak team level, the non-playoff Rangers had Esposito, Dillon, Stemkowski and Tkaczuk. Again a nice blend of offense, defense,with well rounded games and skill sets.

Take a borderline playoff team from the 2009-10 season - Montreal. Pick of third line centers - Lapierre, Metropolit, Moore. Not one has anything that ressembles a complete NHL game.Put their skills together and they may make a serviceable third line center. Rather obvious why two were not retained while Lapierre is playing wing.
This is true for other teams at other levels as usual - Flyers have nice depth on their lines, so did the Hawks, Red Wings are getting old. Most of the other teams scramble like the Canadiens putting situational players in 3rd/4th line roles as dictated by circumstances.

As for Euros. There are perhaps 110-120 skaters who played 60 or more games last season. Factor out the d-men, the elite 1st / 2nd line players and it is rather clear that they do not directly impact 3rd/4th lines like you would like us to believe.

Actually the only absurdities stem from your loose use of percentages and failure to match real numbers to real players.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Start by taking apart your percentages and replacing them with real numbers.

1967 O6 NHL required a core of 120 players increased to 240 players after the 1967 expansion then to 420 players after the WHA was absorbed.Today with a thirty-team league and 23 player rosters you require a core of 690 players. How you managed only 43% over 30 years when the increase in core players went from 420 to 690 is beyond me. Fact of the matter is that today's NHL requires 450 more core players than it did for the 1967 - 68 season.

Taking an arbitrary season from the 1970's:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points
could play the game at a high level. St. Louis had Ungar, Berenson, Sanderson, Pittsburgh had Larouche, Apps Jr, Shock, Chicago had Mikita, Martin, Boldirev.

Nice balance between offense and defense with well rounded games and skill sets.

Take it to the elite team level - Flyers had Clarke, MacLeish, Kindrachuk, Bridgeman. Take it to the weak team level, the non-playoff Rangers had Esposito, Dillon, Stemkowski and Tkaczuk. Again a nice blend of offense, defense,with well rounded games and skill sets.

Take a borderline playoff team from the 2009-10 season - Montreal. Pick of third line centers - Lapierre, Metropolit, Moore. Not one has anything that ressembles a complete NHL game.Put their skills together and they may make a serviceable third line center. Rather obvious why two were not retained while Lapierre is playing wing.
This is true for other teams at other levels as usual - Flyers have nice depth on their lines, so did the Hawks, Red Wings are getting old. Most of the other teams scramble like the Canadiens putting situational players in 3rd/4th line roles as dictated by circumstances.

As for Euros. There are perhaps 110-120 skaters who played 60 or more games last season. Factor out the d-men, the elite 1st / 2nd line players and it is rather clear that they do not directly impact 3rd/4th lines like you would like us to believe.

Actually the only absurdities stem from your loose use of percentages and failure to match real numbers to real players.

Quick re:
You can not dismiss top line euro and US players because they are pushing Canadian players that would have been top line players into the bottom lines, hence, creating a deeper league.

 

[Hardyvan123]

The point is that there are plenty of guys out there with high level skillsets but not the speed/skating to make it on a professional level.

I think people take for granted the speed of the game today and fail to realise that even one of the slowest guys in the league like Hall Gill would be one of the faster players in most of the upper tier semi-pro leagues.

1st and 2nd points taken, we are probably pretty close on the same wavelength here

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Simple fact that quality lines were 3rd or 4th lines on championship teams 25-35 years ago, You do not see that today even on championship teams.

Likewise centers - Pittsburgh with Crosby,Malkin and Staal is a bit of an anomaly and they do not have the support wingers to take advantage. The issue is that there is a perception that with Euros, Americans, etc the talent pool is deeper in theory but in reality it appears that the high end talent - Crosby, Ovechkin, Stamkos, etc is comparable to previous generations BUT there is a drag at the support talent level and the 3rd/4th line level.

You used to have to walk to and from school in the snow every day, uphill both ways, right?

 

[Briere Up There*]

The point is that there are plenty of guys out there with high level skillsets but not the speed/skating to make it on a professional level.

I think people take for granted the speed of the game today and fail to realise that even one of the slowest guys in the league like Hall Gill would be one of the faster players in most of the upper tier semi-pro leagues.

Aww, I know your point and it is valid, but Hal Gill is a bad example. He's fast by high school or junior C standards maybe, but that's it. Not to take anything away from the guy because he's always in good position, but fast is not a word you're going to be using with Gill.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Quick re:
You can not dismiss top line euro and US players because they are pushing Canadian players that would have been top line players into the bottom lines, hence, creating a deeper league.

Agree with you here and he doesn't even address the situation of US colleges becoming a good feeder program for talent as well.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Not So................

Quick re:
You can not dismiss top line euro and US players because they are pushing Canadian players that would have been top line players into the bottom lines, hence, creating a deeper league.

No one is being dismissive of any player category. Euros or Americans are not responsible for the situation where Pittsburgh's first line last season featured Kunitz and Guerin - American with Crosby. Guerin did not get an invite back.

Rather obvious that if Kunitz and Guerin type players are playing first line minutes then the depth is impacted but not in the way you would like to portray.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No one is being dismissive of any player category. Euros or Americans are not responsible for the situation where Pittsburgh's first line last season featured Kunitz and Guerin - American with Crosby. Guerin did not get an invite back.

Rather obvious that if Kunitz and Guerin type players are playing first line minutes then the depth is impacted but not in the way you would like to portray.

I think the forced parity of the economics of the new NHL have more to do with that. In the past, you had some really terrible teams, so the good teams could really stack their teams with talent. Now, with Crosby and Malkin taking up a high percentage of the cap, the Penguins can't afford to surround them with better wingers.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Along with the forced parity and teams having to pick and choose what talent they can keep and what they have to move (see Chicago current edition), picking one team from one year Pittsburgh in this case, when we are talking over a period of years and the entire league is being shortsighted at best and intellectually dishonest at worst, take your pick but either way it does not further your point that the 3rd and 4th lines in the 70's would be top line players on any NHL teams today.

Further to that point, how about talking about an average 70's team like Buffalo or St. Louis or even Toronto instead of always cherry picking Montreal, Philly or Boston in their best years.

The bottom line is that the overall talent level ie. average player from the 70's to today has gone up considerably in terms of talent.

This has happened not only due to the influx of talent from areas that the NHL never tapped into before but also the rise of elite amateur programs especially after Canada had that horrible performance at the world Jr's in the late 80's but it was already happening in selected areas like Detroit which produced Pat Lafontaine in the early 80's.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Salary Cap

I think the forced parity of the economics of the new NHL have more to do with that. In the past, you had some really terrible teams, so the good teams could really stack their teams with talent. Now, with Crosby and Malkin taking up a high percentage of the cap, the Penguins can't afford to surround them with better wingers.

More a factor of overpaying the Kunitz, Guerin, Fedotenko type players.