Hasn't the league decided who is the greatest hockey player?

[Tranq]

I realize that the question of who is the greatest hockey player is up for debate in this board. But I feel like the league has already decided this. Isn't his number retired?

Yes its Gretzky. Who else? His name is synonymous with the game of hockey around the world. So I feel like when this board debates the point I don't think they give enough consideration to this point. Orr was great. Lemieux was great. But the league chose him to be the face of hockey? Was this just a clever marketing strategy or do they really consider him the greatest ever?


***
I just realized the man has a separate wiki page for just his achievements.
http://en.wikipedia.or/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Wayne_Gretzky

what a ****ing badass

Click to read more...

 

[unknown33]

Greatest =/= Best on the ice

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Gretzky is the greatest hockey player ever IMO. Accomplishments, name recognition, face of hockey ect.

What's up for debate is who is the best ever. A solid case can be made for four players, Howe, Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Realize that a substantial majority of forumers (based on previous threads) are either indifferent our outright disagree with the retirement of #99. It's not like that was a democratic decision, and frankly it would have meant a LOT more if it hadn't come in the heat of the moment when Gretzky hype was at a peak.

 

[Tranq]

Wait so being the greatest hockey player does not mean you are the best hockey player ever? What?

 

[Dark Shadows]

Wait so being the greatest hockey player does not mean you are the best hockey player ever? What?

Greatest career? Or greatest player? There is a difference.

Many people, myself included, would say that the player who was the absolute best when he was in his peak is Bobby Orr, but recognize that Gretzky had a better career.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

The league can't "decide" who the greatest hockey player is. I'm not sure what you're trying to getting at.

 

[Tranq]

I thought by retiring his number the league had indirectly decided he was the greatest hockey player.

 

[Tranq]

Greatest career? Or greatest player? There is a difference.

Many people, myself included, would say that the player who was the absolute best when he was in his peak is Bobby Orr, but recognize that Gretzky had a better career.

sounds like an excuse. the greatest hockey player should have the greatest career? doesnt that make sense?

 

[tarheelhockey]

sounds like an excuse. the greatest hockey player should have the greatest career? doesnt that make sense?

This isn't hard to understand.

If Bobby Orr was a better hockey player than Gretzky, but Gretzky played twice as long, you have two different players who could be called the "greatest".

This argument has been going for 20 years now. I really don't think you're going to solve it today.

 

[Dark Shadows]

sounds like an excuse. the greatest hockey player should have the greatest career? doesnt that make sense?

Gretzky broke just about every offensive record there was to break, and had a long storied career. He is responsible for the popularity growth of Hockey in the south, and he had a long storied career.

But were I choosing the best player I had ever seen for my team during their best 5 years only, I would take Bobby Orr without hesitation.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

sounds like an excuse. the greatest hockey player should have the greatest career? doesnt that make sense?

If you only measure career it can get awfully subjective. Is Player A automatically better than Player B, simply because Player A retired with more points and Stanley Cups? Despite Player B being a much more dominant player and taking the league by storm but unfortunately not playing as many years or finding himself on the best teams?

That's not a subtle Gretzky - Orr comparison, by the way...

But I like that this board breaks it down further and is leaning to a generally accepted method of rating players by considering Peak, Prime *and* Career when assessing the value of players. Mark Messier has a greater career than Mario Lemieux, but you will be hard-pressed to find anyone who thinks Messier was 'better' or 'greater'. Specifically considering peak and prime helps you come to that proper distinction and decision.

I'm someone who believes Orr probably had a higher absolute peak than Gretzky, but that Gretzky's far superior prime and career tip the scales well into his favor when speaking of the greatest/best player of all-time.

 

[Epsilon]

I thought by retiring his number the league had indirectly decided he was the greatest hockey player.

Retiring Gretzky's number wasn't the NHL implicitly declaring him to be the greatest player ever. It was acknowledging his obvious status as the most important player in the modern history of the NHL (due to both his on-ice records and his influence on the popularity and expansion of the league) as well as the fairly unique nature of his jersey number (and the fact that he retired in 1999 certainly helped in their decision, Bettman said as much at the ceremony).

I honestly don't get why some people get sour over that event. To me it was a really nice, appropriate gesture by the league, and Gretzky's retirement/final game remains one of the great retirement events in the history of sports (up there with Lou Gehrig's). It was a well-done, genuine event that wasn't sullied by an un-retirement a few months or years later.

 

[tazzy19]

This isn't hard to understand.

If Bobby Orr was a better hockey player than Gretzky, but Gretzky played twice as long, you have two different players who could be called the "greatest".

This argument has been going for 20 years now. I really don't think you're going to solve it today.

I understand your point, but out of interest, what if Gretzky hadn't played twice as long, and instead retired after 10 years just after winning his 4th Cup and owning 49 NHL records (and winning 9 MVPs in 10 years)? Who would have been considered the greatest then?

 

[redbull]

Gretzky broke just about every offensive record there was to break, and had a long storied career. He is responsible for the popularity growth of Hockey in the south, and he had a long storied career.

But were I choosing the best player I had ever seen for my team during their best 5 years only, I would take Bobby Orr without hesitation.

I'll assume you saw Orr through his prime and subsequently (I hope) were able to see 99 through his prime.

Would be curious of the posters who have seen both through their primes who they'd choose if their goal was to build a championship team (multiple cups) over a 5-7 year span.

I find it hard to believe that one wouldn't pick 99. The fact that MANY people who saw both would pick Orr is incredible to me, just based on how amazing a player Gretzky was.

(I read through the Orr vs Gretzky threads and love the historical context and stories about Orr - but it's the filtering through all the non-sense that is difficult and unsatisfying!)

 

[Canadiens1958]

#42 Jackie Robinson

I thought by retiring his number the league had indirectly decided he was the greatest hockey player.

Baseball honoured Jackie Robinson and the #42. By no stretch of the immagination did that make him directly or indirectly the greatest baseball player.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Over 55 Years

I'll assume you saw Orr through his prime and subsequently (I hope) were able to see 99 through his prime.

Would be curious of the posters who have seen both through their primes who they'd choose if their goal was to build a championship team (multiple cups) over a 5-7 year span.

I find it hard to believe that one wouldn't pick 99. The fact that MANY people who saw both would pick Orr is incredible to me, just based on how amazing a player Gretzky was.

(I read through the Orr vs Gretzky threads and love the historical context and stories about Orr - but it's the filtering through all the non-sense that is difficult and unsatisfying!)

Have seen over 55 years of hockey and the "Wow" factors, changed the game factors, or nuance factor is virtually the same for Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux, Orr.

For me the deciding factor comes down to what separates hockey from other sports - skating.Bobby Orr was by far the best skater in the group.When all the other factors wash, it still comes down to being the best at what defines hockey.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I understand your point, but out of interest, what if Gretzky hadn't played twice as long, and instead retired after 10 years just after winning his 4th Cup and owning 49 NHL records (and winning 9 MVPs in 10 years)? Who would have been considered the greatest then?

That's a great question. Stats aside, if I were to watch both of these guys play in a hockey game against each other I think I'd say Orr was the better player.

 

[CHGoalie27]

1 on 1 ...Ovechkin. Ever. Against anybody.

 

[shazariahl]

If you only measure career it can get awfully subjective. Is Player A automatically better than Player B, simply because Player A retired with more points and Stanley Cups? Despite Player B being a much more dominant player and taking the league by storm but unfortunately not playing as many years or finding himself on the best teams?

That's not a subtle Gretzky - Orr comparison, by the way...

But I like that this board breaks it down further and is leaning to a generally accepted method of rating players by considering Peak, Prime *and* Career when assessing the value of players. Mark Messier has a greater career than Mario Lemieux, but you will be hard-pressed to find anyone who thinks Messier was 'better' or 'greater'. Specifically considering peak and prime helps you come to that proper distinction and decision.

I'm someone who believes Orr probably had a higher absolute peak than Gretzky, but that Gretzky's far superior prime and career tip the scales well into his favor when speaking of the greatest/best player of all-time.

I am in this camp as well - those who think Orr's best season may have eclipsed Gretzky's even, but who think Wayne's best 6 or so beat out Orr's best 6. Combined with a better career in general and twice as many cups (yes, I know that's a team award, not specific to these two, but it still factors into my judgement), I feel that Gretzky was the "better" hockey player, despite Orr's 139 pt, +124 season, which just could be the greatest season by any player ever.

 

[Mothra]

I'll assume you saw Orr through his prime and subsequently (I hope) were able to see 99 through his prime.

Would be curious of the posters who have seen both through their primes who they'd choose if their goal was to build a championship team (multiple cups) over a 5-7 year span.
I find it hard to believe that one wouldn't pick 99. The fact that MANY people who saw both would pick Orr is incredible to me, just based on how amazing a player Gretzky was.

(I read through the Orr vs Gretzky threads and love the historical context and stories about Orr - but it's the filtering through all the non-sense that is difficult and unsatisfying!)

I would pick Orr and as DS said, without hesitation. I have never seen anyone control play/the game more than Orr. He played full tilt, all the time.....which is why his career was shortened.

I often wonder just how great he would have been had he played on 2 knees for most of his career. It wasnt like he had one big injury.....most of his career was played on a torn up knee

 

[BenchBrawl]

How can a league decide that kind of thing , first of all not every people running the league are hockey genius , and second even if they are it's still an opinion.

 

[BostonAJ]

Statistically, there's no denying Gretzky. What locks him out of the all time top spot for me is a purely subjective matter. He was one of the biggest wusses on the ice at all times. You know all that stuff you read from fans calling Crosby a diver/whiner/whatever? If HF existed during Gretzky's prime there'd be 10x the amount of complaints. The Oilers had to go so far as to get him a bodyguard, for crying out loud.

His passes were amazing, no doubt. He'd always do that slight curl away from the defender, and just as it looked like 99 was going to get lit up, the puck would squirt out and land on the tape of a team mate rushing towards the net. That, or he'd set up right behind the net and wait for someone to jump into the slot.

Still, from a fan's perspective I prefer a Howe or an Orr to Gretzky. But there's no way to deny his numbers.

 

[tazzy19]

Gretzky broke just about every offensive record there was to break, and had a long storied career. He is responsible for the popularity growth of Hockey in the south, and he had a long storied career.

But were I choosing the best player I had ever seen for my team during their best 5 years only, I would take Bobby Orr without hesitation.

It's debatable as to what Gretzky's best 5 years were because he had so many amazing years in the 1980s. Do you pick 83-84 when he scored an unthinkable 153 points in a record 51 straight games (3 points per game!) and finished with a record 2.77 PPG average and his 1st Cup? Or do you pick 84-85 when he obliterated the competition by beating runner up Jari Kurri for the scoring title by a whopping 73 points and winning his 6th straight Hart Trophy (and 4th straight Pearson), while demolishing the Flyers in the Stanley Cup Finals with 7 goals in 5 games, finishing with 47 points in 18 playoff games (47 points in 18 games!!!) on route to his 2nd Cup and first Conn Smythe? Or would you pick 1981-82 when a 20 year old kid named Gretzky scored a ridiculous 50 goals in 39 games on route to 92 goals and 120 assists for 212 points, leaving runner up superstar Mike Bossy some 65 odd points back? Or would it be 1986 when he somehow managed to score 163 assists in a season, something that only one other person has ever managed to do in terms of total points, forget about assists....while still somehow scoring over 50 goals (on route to breaking his old record with 215 points)! Ridiculous. Or would you pick 1986-87 when he won the scoring title by 72%, his 8th straight Hart Trophy, and yet another Stanley Cup? Or how about 87-88 when he won 3 championships in one calender year (2 Stanley Cups and a Canada Cup), including the Conn Smythe, as well as the scoring title and tournament MVP at the 87 Canada Cup? At some point in the 80s, it seemed like Gretzky was just breaking his old records from that point on. As such, there's just too many great years to choose from...but if you managed to pick the 5 "best", would Orr's 5 "best" seriously topple Gretzky's "best" as a group?

 

[VMBM]

For me, a player and his career walk closely hand in hand and I don't separate them, so Gretzky it is for me*... what he maybe loses in [physical] talent, he wins it in longevity and unique hockey sense

* of course I don't mean that Bobby Orr didn't have a great career

Is this a disguised Orr vs. Gretzky part III? Moderator no likey!