Has the Oilers pro-scouting department finally turned the corner?

[ManofSteel55]

Hyman was a whopping -9 on the year in the reg season. (Tied for team worst)

27 goals playing with mcdavid or drai all year is nothing. Friggin pat marron scored 27 with them.

Alex chaisson scored 22.

He was good in the playoffs mediocre in the reg season.

Come on beer fish you can do better than using plus minus.

27 goals isn't nothing. It's still 27 goals.

 

[Whyme]

Going by P/60 or goals/60 Pulju has always been really good.

Yes, so what I'm saying is I don't quite understand how some fans think Hyman was a terrific signing, but if Pulju gets between 3.5-4 million he isn't close to being worth it and the team should walk away. I think the team should try to find a way to keep him if they see he has potential for a top-6 place.

 

[McSuper]

Hyman was a whopping -9 on the year in the reg season. (Tied for team worst)

27 goals playing with mcdavid or drai all year is nothing. Friggin pat marron scored 27 with them.

Alex chaisson scored 22.

He was good in the playoffs mediocre in the reg season.

Not true. I remember countless time he was playing with RNH on the 3rd line.

 

[Whyme]

Come on beer fish you can do better than using plus minus.

27 goals isn't nothing. It's still 27 goals.

It's not like plus minus is totally worthless. It has its limitations, but what stat doesn't. It's no coincidence some players are in the bottom of the team almost each year while some among the best of the team. I also think 27 goals is a good amount so that is one, but not the only good thing Hyman is bringing to the team.

 

[Mr Sakich]

i still like the foegle trade. we gave up a replacement level player for him so the cost was very low

I think that I read he did well under woodcroft so there is hope for a 2nd / 3rd line power forward . the issue is the cap right now. He is not bad value but we are tight

 

[russ99]

I find it funny that some fans think Brad Holland is going to sweep in a massive analytics-only acquisition system, and they go out and get McKegg and Janmark.

 

[Oilers in NS]

Over the decade of darkness, one of the Oilers key organizational weaknesses had always been their ability to identify and acquire the right talent for the team. From signing Mark Fayne because of his performance beside Andy Greene & Andrew Ference for his "cup winning leadership", to handing Nikita Nikitin a $4.5M AAV contract, there are countless examples of how the Oilers management group made the team worse by overpaying for fringe players. This continued in the Chiarelli era: Eberle for Strome for Spooner, Hall for Larsson, the list goes on and on. Let's spare ourselves the details and the pain that comes with it.

Finally, we come to the Holland years. They haven't been perfect - there have been a few misses, some of which were exacerbated by the pandemic (Athanasiou, Green), but there has been a signficant uptick in quality NHL players coming into the organization:

• Zach Hyman, a versatile player who was let go by his former team, has become a key cog in our top 6 and was a major contributor in our WCF appearance
• Cody Ceci, an oft ridiculed defenseman by media/fans alike, has become a stabilizing force in our top 4 and was our steadiest d-man last year on a bargain contract
• Brett Kulak, a smooth skating defenseman who is just entering his prime, formed a respectable partnership with high-event Barrie on the bottom pair last season and looks to push into the top 4 next year
• Evander Kane, a rugged top 6 power forward, who, apart from Draisaitl (and arguably Maroon), formed the best fit on McDavid's wing and led the post-season last year in goals scored
• Jack Campbell, one of the top goaltending free agents available, chose to sign in Edmonton after breaking out with the Toronto Maple Leafs

Now these players aren't as sexy, and they might have been overpaid at the time, but you can't argue that they didn't provide value to the team despite their age:

• Duncan Keith, who became a key mentor & veteran presence for Bouchard and the rest of the team last season and into the playoffs
• Mike Smith, who delivered quality goaltending at a bargain price for 3 years and formed a decent, if not solid, tandem with Koskinen during his time in Edmonton

From rumors, we also can surmise that the Oilers have / had at one point looked into the following players:

• Jacob Markstrom
• Darcy Kuemper
• Patrick Kane
• Connor Brown

All that being said, how do you feel about the Oilers pro-scouting finally turning over a new leaf? Are the recent high profile moves made by Holland & co enough to assuage your fears or are you still skeptical that our management group has what it takes to build a contender?

On UFA day, I give Holland an A+. Resigned very important pieces at great prices and got a goalie. As for drafting, it takes a few years to see the results. One thing I’m happy with is the defence prospects. We have some dandies coming. They are monsters. It’s been a long time since we had that. Sure we have missed along the way but we have more hits now. I strongly believe Broberg will be a dandy

 

[Drivesaitl]

Odd thread. Titled scouting and yet all the players mentioned in OP are actual vet NHL players, Actual players, not prospects. Anybody with a brain knew Kane would be great here. Sorry but this was so obvious not sure how it could escape anybody.

Hyman was pretty much a known quantity who's skillset would be amplified playing more of a role with skill like McDrai. This was going to work.

Ceci is another positive. Can't say too much about this one as I hadn't seen him good before getting here. But he seemed capable. I liked Kulak from what I saw in Montreal as well. This is basically getting some D backstop that was readily available.

Keith? On the ice he was a miss. In the room I think he helped a lot. So kind of a 50/50 and the contract kind of hurt us. Good thing he retired.

Brassard, Foegele Ryan. These were not good pickups and barely good enough to be on the ice. These were all players that resulted in our bottomsix being weak. They were just not helpful additions. People could argue Ryan but he struggled more than not in season.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Over the decade of darkness, one of the Oilers key organizational weaknesses had always been their ability to identify and acquire the right talent for the team. From signing Mark Fayne because of his performance beside Andy Greene & Andrew Ference for his "cup winning leadership", to handing Nikita Nikitin a $4.5M AAV contract, there are countless examples of how the Oilers management group made the team worse by overpaying for fringe players. This continued in the Chiarelli era: Eberle for Strome for Spooner, Hall for Larsson, the list goes on and on. Let's spare ourselves the details and the pain that comes with it.

Finally, we come to the Holland years. They haven't been perfect - there have been a few misses, some of which were exacerbated by the pandemic (Athanasiou, Green), but there has been a signficant uptick in quality NHL players coming into the organization:

• Zach Hyman, a versatile player who was let go by his former team, has become a key cog in our top 6 and was a major contributor in our WCF appearance
• Cody Ceci, an oft ridiculed defenseman by media/fans alike, has become a stabilizing force in our top 4 and was our steadiest d-man last year on a bargain contract
• Brett Kulak, a smooth skating defenseman who is just entering his prime, formed a respectable partnership with high-event Barrie on the bottom pair last season and looks to push into the top 4 next year
• Evander Kane, a rugged top 6 power forward, who, apart from Draisaitl (and arguably Maroon), formed the best fit on McDavid's wing and led the post-season last year in goals scored
• Jack Campbell, one of the top goaltending free agents available, chose to sign in Edmonton after breaking out with the Toronto Maple Leafs

Snip...

No.

The critical need for pro scouting is the ability to identify latent, unseen value in players and build up your team's talent while being ahead of the market. All of the players mentioned are deeply established NHL players, 3 of 5 former first round picks. Hyman was about high dollar and term with a coveted free agent. Kane a high risk acquisition to save a season on the brink. Campbell bet again is big dollars and term for a guy still with a short runway of NHL headline work.

Ceci and Kulak were excellent gets. Credit to pro scouting for their work. However it's still an organization that's largely missed on bottom six support guys like Turris, the cheap Euro tweeners, and the like.

This pro scouting staff when it can begin identifying Hyman (before he became HYMAN) and players like Marchment, Bunting and Tanner Jeanette will be invaluable to this organization's success. Ability to add inexpensive, quality support pieces around a Cap threshold team within it's hopeful winning window would be invaluable.

 

[Drivesaitl]

i still like the foegle trade. we gave up a replacement level player for him so the cost was very low

I think that I read he did well under woodcroft so there is hope for a 2nd / 3rd line power forward . the issue is the cap right now. He is not bad value but we are tight

Foegele hasn't been a good player with either coach and hasn't filled his role with either. he's a high GA player in bottomsix. Its almost difficult to be as ineffective and bad as he's been against weakest possible NHL opposition. You can't really put him anywhere in a lineup or get much out of him. Complete waste of money. For respective bucks spent Foegele is the worst contract on the club. Just doesn't bring anything and no intangibles either. Foegele even got scratched in the playoffs. Out of the lineup for 3 games, and was -5 in the limited and ugly minutes he did play. Probably worst player on the team in the playoffs. Except Malone...

 

[AM]

I don’t believe in the premise. Bad then good now. It’s got more to do with players wanting to come to the team now.

 

[OG Eberle]

Odd thread. Titled scouting and yet all the players mentioned in OP are actual vet NHL players, Actual players, not prospects. Anybody with a brain knew Kane would be great here. Sorry but this was so obvious not sure how it could escape anybody.

Hyman was pretty much a known quantity who's skillset would be amplified playing more of a role with skill like McDrai. This was going to work.

Ceci is another positive. Can't say too much about this one as I hadn't seen him good before getting here. But he seemed capable. I liked Kulak from what I saw in Montreal as well. This is basically getting some D backstop that was readily available.

Keith? On the ice he was a miss. In the room I think he helped a lot. So kind of a 50/50 and the contract kind of hurt us. Good thing he retired.

Brassard, Foegele Ryan. These were not good pickups and barely good enough to be on the ice. These were all players that resulted in our bottomsix being weak. They were just not helpful additions. People could argue Ryan but he struggled more than not in season.

You realize there is a difference between "pro scouting" and "amateur scouting" right?

It seems pretty obvious which one we're speaking about

 

[Spawn]

Honestly Cody Ceci seems to be the only really big win for the pro-scouting team so far in Holland's tenure. Where as he's a guy who came in and outperformed expectations.

Kane, Hyman, Keith and Barrie have all been what you'd expect. So I don't think any big credit or knock for them.

Athanasiou was a huge miss.

But where the pro scouting has really let the team down is just completely bombing when it comes to identifying competent bottom 6 forwards.

Turris
Ryan
Foegele
Brassard
Archibald
Sheahan
Kahun
Shore
Ennis
Haas
Nygard
Perlini
Granlund
Jurco

Don't get me wrong, every roster is going to have the odd miss when they are bringing in bottom 6 guys to fill out a roster. But the Oilers list of suck is pretty magnificent.

We'll see if Janmark bucks the trend.

 

[tiger_80]

Lots of average to below average pick-ups. Foegele, Ryan etc

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Odd thread. Titled scouting and yet all the players mentioned in OP are actual vet NHL players, Actual players, not prospects. Anybody with a brain knew Kane would be great here. Sorry but this was so obvious not sure how it could escape anybody.

Hyman was pretty much a known quantity who's skillset would be amplified playing more of a role with skill like McDrai. This was going to work.

Ceci is another positive. Can't say too much about this one as I hadn't seen him good before getting here. But he seemed capable. I liked Kulak from what I saw in Montreal as well. This is basically getting some D backstop that was readily available.

Keith? On the ice he was a miss. In the room I think he helped a lot. So kind of a 50/50 and the contract kind of hurt us. Good thing he retired.

Brassard, Foegele Ryan. These were not good pickups and barely good enough to be on the ice. These were all players that resulted in our bottomsix being weak. They were just not helpful additions. People could argue Ryan but he struggled more than not in season.

You’re aware there’s different types of scouts right?

 

[Fixed to Ruin]

Odd thread. Titled scouting and yet all the players mentioned in OP are actual vet NHL players, Actual players, not prospects. Anybody with a brain knew Kane would be great here. Sorry but this was so obvious not sure how it could escape anybody.

Hyman was pretty much a known quantity who's skillset would be amplified playing more of a role with skill like McDrai. This was going to work.

Ceci is another positive. Can't say too much about this one as I hadn't seen him good before getting here. But he seemed capable. I liked Kulak from what I saw in Montreal as well. This is basically getting some D backstop that was readily available.

Keith? On the ice he was a miss. In the room I think he helped a lot. So kind of a 50/50 and the contract kind of hurt us. Good thing he retired.

Brassard, Foegele Ryan. These were not good pickups and barely good enough to be on the ice. These were all players that resulted in our bottomsix being weak. They were just not helpful additions. People could argue Ryan but he struggled more than not in season.

I share this view.

We haven't found the proverbial "diamond in the rough" since Patrick Maroon. Highlighting a player like Keith as a great find by our pro scouts is very bizarre when Keith was the one who wanted to to come to Edmonton and is a Hall of Fame defenseman.

I'll give them credit for Ceci, he was fairly unloved by most of pundits out there and fit in with the Oilers perfectly.

As Drivesaitl mentioned there are many misses, mostly in our bottom six that hurts us more than helps us.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I share this view.

We haven't found the proverbial "diamond in the rough" since Patrick Maroon. Highlighting a player like Keith as a great find by our pro scouts is very bizarre when Keith was the one who wanted to to come to Edmonton and is a Hall of Fame defenseman.

I'll give them credit for Ceci, he was fairly unloved by most of pundits out there and fit in with the Oilers perfectly.

As Drivesaitl mentioned there are many misses, mostly in our bottom six that hurts us more than helps us.

Yeah. I just don't get the notion in the first place that scouting "knowns" that are actually playing in the league is any great deduction. Seems like a job description for Captain Obvious. To me the art of scouting is trying to find prospects out there that can actually play in the bigs. Not finding the trout that are actually in the shallow trout pond that you can just see already.

That said there's been more misses than hits and the ones like Kane that fell right in our lap the org would be foolish not to take. I don't think we're stealing clubs lunch money out there.

Pro scouting is such a dubious task. Its like turning a tap on and saying you're making water... I mean the whole gist of the thing is people scouring the league looking at greener grass thinking that X players would look better in your lineup. I guess with analytics people can now pretend theres even any basis in the payscale. But really its sniffing smelling and guessing.

A story on this. Years ago anybody would have thought either Ken Linseman or Kent Nillson would have made the biggest splash on our 2nd line. That they would be transformative. Not really, and either didin't improve the club immensely. They were nice to have. Sexy additions. Then when the Oilers traded Paul Coffey for Craig Simpson most people were crying. Yet the team was never better than after they got Simpson. That 88 club was unstoppable and a fairly ordinary Simpson was a bigger addition that the two previous star players. Oddly the Oilers improved through that trade. Other than players like Kane its often just guesswork what a pro player is going to be like on another pro club. That a ton of people get paid to do this is kind of a lark.

 

[LTIR]

Pro scouting has been decent so I am somewhat confident. Having said that there is still a lot of throwing at the wall and hoping it sticks with our depth players.

Kulak is still TBD IMO and I don't think Campbell is going to be a clear upgrade over Smith.

 

[AddyTheWrath]

For all the people saying Hyman / Kane were obvious acquisitions, you also have Lucic on the other end of the spectrum. Just because a player is established in the top 6 doesn’t mean they’ll fit well with the team, or your locker room.

 

[Stoneman89]

Over the decade of darkness, one of the Oilers key organizational weaknesses had always been their ability to identify and acquire the right talent for the team. From signing Mark Fayne because of his performance beside Andy Greene & Andrew Ference for his "cup winning leadership", to handing Nikita Nikitin a $4.5M AAV contract, there are countless examples of how the Oilers management group made the team worse by overpaying for fringe players. This continued in the Chiarelli era: Eberle for Strome for Spooner, Hall for Larsson, the list goes on and on. Let's spare ourselves the details and the pain that comes with it.

Finally, we come to the Holland years. They haven't been perfect - there have been a few misses, some of which were exacerbated by the pandemic (Athanasiou, Green), but there has been a signficant uptick in quality NHL players coming into the organization:

• Zach Hyman, a versatile player who was let go by his former team, has become a key cog in our top 6 and was a major contributor in our WCF appearance
• Cody Ceci, an oft ridiculed defenseman by media/fans alike, has become a stabilizing force in our top 4 and was our steadiest d-man last year on a bargain contract
• Brett Kulak, a smooth skating defenseman who is just entering his prime, formed a respectable partnership with high-event Barrie on the bottom pair last season and looks to push into the top 4 next year
• Evander Kane, a rugged top 6 power forward, who, apart from Draisaitl (and arguably Maroon), formed the best fit on McDavid's wing and led the post-season last year in goals scored
• Jack Campbell, one of the top goaltending free agents available, chose to sign in Edmonton after breaking out with the Toronto Maple Leafs

Now these players aren't as sexy, and they might have been overpaid at the time, but you can't argue that they didn't provide value to the team despite their age:

• Duncan Keith, who became a key mentor & veteran presence for Bouchard and the rest of the team last season and into the playoffs
• Mike Smith, who delivered quality goaltending at a bargain price for 3 years and formed a decent, if not solid, tandem with Koskinen during his time in Edmonton

From rumors, we also can surmise that the Oilers have / had at one point looked into the following players:

• Jacob Markstrom
• Darcy Kuemper
• Patrick Kane
• Connor Brown

All that being said, how do you feel about the Oilers pro-scouting finally turning over a new leaf? Are the recent high profile moves made by Holland & co enough to assuage your fears or are you still skeptical that our management group has what it takes to build a contender?

"Kane best fit with McDavid (arguably with Maroon)"

There IS no argument. Kane is head and shoulders above Maroon at his best, not even close.

Hyman scored a lot of goals so he deserves credit for that. But I think fans make a bigger difference between him and JP than they should.

Hyman got much more PP time, but his points/60 was almost identical with JP's (2.190 vs 2.048). Like you said Hyman was -9, while JP +22.

Hyman was a good addition, but while I know some get annoyed by me bringing Pulju's stats I'm not sure there's a huge difference between the players statistically in the regular season.

Hyman also came on strong towards the end of the season and ramped it up in the playoffs, while JP faded into oblivion quicker than a summer flower in October. Absolutely zero comparison in my mind.

 

[Stoneman89]

Hyman scored a lot of goals so he deserves credit for that. But I think fans make a bigger difference between him and JP than they should.

Hyman got much more PP time, but his points/60 was almost identical with JP's (2.190 vs 2.048). Like you said Hyman was -9, while JP +22.

Hyman was a good addition, but while I know some get annoyed by me bringing Pulju's stats I'm not sure there's a huge difference between the players statistically in the regular season.

Hyman also came on strong towards the end of the season and ramped it up in the playoffs, while JP faded into oblivion quicker than a summer flower in October. Absolutely zero comparison in my mind.

Hyman was a whopping -9 on the year in the reg season. (Tied for team worst)

27 goals playing with mcdavid or drai all year is nothing. Friggin pat marron scored 27 with them.

Alex chaisson scored 22.

He was good in the playoffs mediocre in the reg season.

And interesting that before Hyman, we either had McDavid or Draisaitl or nothing, and it got us nowhere. Both Kane and Hyman provided the extra that we needed to go 3 rounds and advance to where we haven't been for over 15 years. I'd say that's a huge win.

 

[Macheteops]

Hyman scored a lot of goals so he deserves credit for that. But I think fans make a bigger difference between him and JP than they should.

Hyman got much more PP time, but his points/60 was almost identical with JP's (2.190 vs 2.048). Like you said Hyman was -9, while JP +22.

Hyman was a good addition, but while I know some get annoyed by me bringing Pulju's stats I'm not sure there's a huge difference between the players statistically in the regular season.

Hyman has the ability to skate and stick handle the puck at the same time so that skill sets him apart from JP

Hyman is an animal. Love his no quit attitude to drive the net with the puck. Wish JP had a quarter of that

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

The only actual good pro scouting finds here on this list were Ceci and Kulak. I'm going to spot you with Tyson Barrie for the list too since he was coming off an abysmal year in Toronto and then led NHL defensemen in scoring for us (probably shouldn't have been kept afterwards given his overlapping niche with Bouchard but that's a different story). Everyone and their mothers knew Hyman was good, we just happened to be the only contender willing to overterm him on a nice fat contract. Evander Kane was also a well known strong 1st line power forward and his availability was due to off ice issues. Jack Campbell hasn't played a minute for us yet and that could blow up in our face if we don't get rid of Tyson Barrie given Campbell's historic issues vs high danger shots. We've had some pretty meh pickups like Foegele, Ryan, Kahun, and Ennis and some full pepega pro scouting fails like Keith, Athanasiou, Turris, Brassard, Sceviour, Perlini, Haas, and Nygard. It's better than the Summer of Steve Belanger/Eager/Hordichuk/Barker shenanigans but that's not a high bar.

 

[5 14 6 1]

I find it funny that some fans think Brad Holland is going to sweep in a massive analytics-only acquisition system, and they go out and get McKegg and Janmark.

Its not funny, its measured.

What did Helm and Coglianos analytics look like prior to Colorado?

Sometime a player fits a teams style beyond basic analytic numbers. Edmonton trying to be a pressure heavy strong skating team, Janmark fits the mold with his speed. Foegele, McLeod, Janmark, Holloway all have wheels now. Much faster (and more skilled) bottom 6 than past years.

Point is, you can't judge a move in only one way. Sometime you use analytics to aid in decisions, sometimes you need to look at the roster you are building and acquire pieces that fit the system.

McKegg fills a veteran player gap for Bako (replaces Marody).

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

Its not funny, its measured.

What did Helm and Coglianos analytics look like prior to Colorado?

Sometime a player fits a teams style beyond basic analytic numbers. Edmonton trying to be a pressure heavy strong skating team, Janmark fits the mold with his speed. Foegele, McLeod, Janmark, Holloway all have wheels now. Much faster (and more skilled) bottom 6 than past years.

Point is, you can't judge a move in only one way. Sometime you use analytics to aid in decisions, sometimes you need to look at the roster you are building and acquire pieces that fit the system.

McKegg fills a veteran player gap for Bako (replaces Marody).

I agree with your point but not sure about your example. Helm and Cogliano weren't exactly world beaters for Colorado. Helm had the series winning goal against St. Louis but they were otherwise nonfactors to Colorado's success both regular season and playoffs. They just looked like gods against us b/c they got to play against Duncan Keith who makes everyone look like an offensive wizard.