Has Selänne surpassed Kurri?

[blueandgoldguy]

Selanne. No one here has mentioned that Kurri played most of his career during the greatest offensive period in NHL history. Selanne played most of his career during the dead puck era and the today's NHL, which still has substantially less scoring than the NHL of the 80s.

Kurri did have some good seasons after Gretzky left. What wasn't mentioned is that instead of playing with the greatest forward who ever played the game, he had to "settle" for playing with arguably 10th-15th best forward who ever played the game, Mark Messier. While I'm on that subject I should also mention he had an MVP season with 130 points in 1990 which would have also helped Kurri's numbers quite a bit, don't you think?

So far, Selanne's numbers are:

GP: 1198
G: 611
A: 661
TP: 1272

Kurri's numbers:

GP: 1251
G: 601
A: 797
TP: 1398

Hmmmmm. Kurri's played just over 50 more games than Selanne, during the highest scoring era in NHL history, playing most of his career with the greatest offensive player of all-time, playing with arguably the team with the greatest offensive depth of all-time, yet he has fewer goals than Selanne and only 120+ total points. Once Selanne makes up those games this season, I suspect he will be about 40 goals ahead and 50 total points behind Kurri. Most of that while playing with substandard talent during the first half of his career with the exception of a few brief flings with Housley, Zhamnov, Tkachuk, and Kariya.

AS for those mediocre seasons during the middle of his career, you can blame that on the idiot coach, Darryl Sutter (one of the most over-rated coaches/GMS I've ever seen who gets by on the glory of one flucky playoff run) who didn't use Selanne and his talents properly while he was in San Jose. In Colorado, you had another terrible coach, Tony Granato, who cut Selanne's icetime early in the season when he struggled to gel with his new teammates. That, and his leg injury which has been documented in the past, led to his worst season. The following year off due to the lockout was a godsend for him!

Back to the comparisons, if Selanne had played during Kurri's era and Kurri had played during Selanne's, you could probably add another 100+ goals and 200+ points to Selanne's career stats, while subtracting 75-100 goals from Kurri and 200 points. Not close really when you think about.

Since Selanne put up similar, if not better offensive numbers than Kurri under much more difficult curcumstances, I think it's safe to assume he is the better player. AS for the comments regarding Kurri's better defensive play, I don't buy it. On those Oiler teams, goalies like Fuhr and Moog were left to fnd for themselves, defense be damned. It was all about the offense back then and how quickly the defense could join the rush.

 

[lextune]

AS for the comments regarding Kurri's better defensive play, I don't buy it. On those Oiler teams, goalies like Fuhr and Moog were left to fnd for themselves, defense be damned. It was all about the offense back then and how quickly the defense could join the rush.

You "don't buy it"? You talk about Kurri like he played 80 years ago and we have to go by newspaper accounts or something....

....I saw his entire career. He was a tenacious backchecker.

Has Selänne surpassed Kurri?

No.

....but with that being said, I do think Selanne is underrated by many.

 

[Corey Perry*]

Kurri is one of the best Finns , but IMO, he is a tad overated. He played with Gretzky for most of his hey day, so his stats were a little inflated. He was still a GREAT player, just I think he wouldn't be as great without playing with Gretzky.

The problem with this debate is that Selanne didnt have much of a defensive game or physical game, but he had a little better offensive game.

This is Hard!

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The problem with this debate is that Selanne didnt have much of a defensive game or physical game, but he had a little better offensive game.

This sums up my thoughts. I ended up voting for Kurri, because I'm a North American who puts a lot of value on NHL playoffs.

 

[Cake or Death]

Kurri is one of the best Finns , but IMO, he is a tad overated. He played with Gretzky for most of his hey day, so his stats were a little inflated. He was still a GREAT player, just I think he wouldn't be as great without playing with Gretzky.

The problem with this debate is that Selanne didnt have much of a defensive game or physical game, but he had a little better offensive game.

This is Hard!

True, but the Gretzky/Kurri relationship kinda works in both directions. In that day, Kurri and Bossy just had the sweetest shots. Both benefited from playing With Gretzky and Trottier respectively. But Gretzky and Trottier benefited too. Gretzky's on ice thinking was weird and profound, to say the least, and to have the the highest synergy, chemistry, and success with Gretzky, it required tremendous skill and also a very high hockey IQ. The level of chemistry that Kurri/Gretzky (and Bossy/Trottier) shared is a testament to exceptional players, who were able to read one another at an exceedingly high level, and also had the skillsets to execute and produce exceedingly high results.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I find this hilarious. If Kurri wasn't able to put up gaudy numbers on weak Finnish teams it owuld be unfortunate, but when people put Kurri over Selanne in the playoffs because Kurri got to ride shotgun to Gretzky while Selanne was centered by Steve Rucchin we're just supposed to look the other way.

that was my thought exactly.

I'm taking

Selanne as he is vastly underrated both by most NHL observers and the people on this board IMO.

Selanne's peak seasons are better than Kurri's and he has a decent playoff record as well.

Kurri was a great player but he is overrated for 2 reasons.

One is playign with Wayne and the 2nd is being able to play on better teams thus getting 200 playoff games to Selanne's 105.

Selanne has aged very well and should be considered one of the top 50 or 60 players of all time IMO.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

formula

begin with RAW CAREER NUMBERS

add 2 pts for each game missed/not played

subtract 100 pts for each all-star teammate

subtract 250 pts for each hall of fame teammate

divide total in half if on the same team as gretzky, lemieux, orr, howe

add 50 pts for each losing season (not his fault, bad linemates!)

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Selanne. No one here has mentioned that Kurri played most of his career during the greatest offensive period in NHL history. Selanne played most of his career during the dead puck era and the today's NHL, which still has substantially less scoring than the NHL of the 80s.

Kurri did have some good seasons after Gretzky left. What wasn't mentioned is that instead of playing with the greatest forward who ever played the game, he had to "settle" for playing with arguably 10th-15th best forward who ever played the game, Mark Messier. While I'm on that subject I should also mention he had an MVP season with 130 points in 1990 which would have also helped Kurri's numbers quite a bit, don't you think?
So far, Selanne's numbers are:

GP: 1198
G: 611
A: 661
TP: 1272

Kurri's numbers:

GP: 1251
G: 601
A: 797
TP: 1398

Hmmmmm. Kurri's played just over 50 more games than Selanne, during the highest scoring era in NHL history, playing most of his career with the greatest offensive player of all-time, playing with arguably the team with the greatest offensive depth of all-time, yet he has fewer goals than Selanne and only 120+ total points. Once Selanne makes up those games this season, I suspect he will be about 40 goals ahead and 50 total points behind Kurri. Most of that while playing with substandard talent during the first half of his career with the exception of a few brief flings with Housley, Zhamnov, Tkachuk, and Kariya.

AS for those mediocre seasons during the middle of his career, you can blame that on the idiot coach, Darryl Sutter (one of the most over-rated coaches/GMS I've ever seen who gets by on the glory of one flucky playoff run) who didn't use Selanne and his talents properly while he was in San Jose. In Colorado, you had another terrible coach, Tony Granato, who cut Selanne's icetime early in the season when he struggled to gel with his new teammates. That, and his leg injury which has been documented in the past, led to his worst season. The following year off due to the lockout was a godsend for him!

Back to the comparisons, if Selanne had played during Kurri's era and Kurri had played during Selanne's, you could probably add another 100+ goals and 200+ points to Selanne's career stats, while subtracting 75-100 goals from Kurri and 200 points. Not close really when you think about.

Since Selanne put up similar, if not better offensive numbers than Kurri under much more difficult curcumstances, I think it's safe to assume he is the better player. AS for the comments regarding Kurri's better defensive play, I don't buy it. On those Oiler teams, goalies like Fuhr and Moog were left to fnd for themselves, defense be damned. It was all about the offense back then and how quickly the defense could join the rush.

So it's all about career numbers then. Good to know that Mark Recchi and Dave Andreychuk are in fact superior players than the two being compared.

Bolded: No, I don't think so actually. In the year immediately following Gretzky's departure, Kurri, a career RW, was moved to center and responded with 102 points. You don't hear of too many wingers who can transition to center and not miss a beat at that stage of their career. I'm not sure how long he remained up the middle, but he certainly wasn't "leeching" off Messier (or Gretzky). Like Trottier said earlier in the thread, playing on a great team is seen as a blemish on a player's career by some, unfortunately.

I also feel the "Selanne had crap teammates in Anaheim" argument being trotted out here is misguided. Not because it's untrue, those Anaheim teams were junk outside of the starting lineup. But this also made it ideal for Selanne in terms of putting up points (for the stat counters in here). Every single minute of offensive ice time was going to him and Kariya. They had free reign to go for goals, that was their job. There was no secondary scoring to share PP time with, and Selanne cashed in big time on that. Which is of course a positive, good on him for doing so. But it shows that having weak teammates beyond the top line can have a positive influence on a player's numbers, contrary to popular sentiment.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

that was my thought exactly.

I'm taking

Selanne as he is vastly underrated both by most NHL observers and the people on this board IMO.

Selanne's peak seasons are better than Kurri's and he has a decent playoff record as well.

Kurri was a great player but he is overrated for 2 reasons.

One is playign with Wayne and the 2nd is being able to play on better teams thus getting 200 playoff games to Selanne's 105.

Selanne has aged very well and should be considered one of the top 50 or 60 players of all time IMO.

Which peak seasons are these? From 1984 to 1988 Kurri averaged 58 goals and 117 points per season while leading the playoffs in goals four times (unmatched by anyone not named Rocket Richard) and being a crucial part of four Stanley Cups. Which five-year stretch of Selanne's eclipsed this?

Oh how silly, I forgot: Playoffs don't count! And any old bum would have put up those numbers with Gretzky. Really, Kurri was no better than contemporary wingers like Toni Tanti and Brian Mullen, they just had bad linemates!

 

[Fish on The Sand]

i'm not wading into the selanne discussion, but feel as if i should stick up for guy hebert. he had the seventh best sv% of any goalie who played 100 or more games in the 90s. 18th in GAA, 8th in shutouts. he wasn't hasek, but he was no scrub either.

While he was ok, its not like any team was going to have much playoff success with him leading the way.

 

[Ogopogo*]

I love Kurri, he was a great player but is overrated by many. Selanne is the greatest Finnish player.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Which peak seasons are these? From 1984 to 1988 Kurri averaged 58 goals and 117 points per season while leading the playoffs in goals four times (unmatched by anyone not named Rocket Richard) and being a crucial part of four Stanley Cups. Which five-year stretch of Selanne's eclipsed this?

Oh how silly, I forgot: Playoffs don't count! And any old bum would have put up those numbers with Gretzky. Really, Kurri was no better than contemporary wingers like Toni Tanti and Brian Mullen, they just had bad linemates!

I was taking only about regular season. I covered some of my thoughts on playoffs later in my reply.

Compare the 2 guys in adjusted stats regular season and top 10 finishes in all Cats and Selanne comes out ahead. And don't try to tell me that Kurri's stats in hte 80's can be compared to Selanne's stats in the clutch and grab era of the NHL.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I was taking only about regular season. I covered some of my thoughts on playoffs later in my reply.

Compare the 2 guys in adjusted stats regular season and top 10 finishes in all Cats and Selanne comes out ahead. And don't try to tell me that Kurri's stats in hte 80's can be compared to Selanne's stats in the clutch and grab era of the NHL.

I mentioned earlier that Selanne has a slight edge in top-10 finishes, but that Kurri's excellent defensive play should make up the gap. Both were great offensive players in the regular season, neither has a decisive edge. So no, I don't believe for a second that Selanne's peak seasons are better than Kurri's, and especially when you consider Kurri was a playoff monster as well during those seasons. Last I checked, April-June is also part of the season, so I don't know why playoff games wouldn't be considered in the overall evaluation of peak seasons. Selanne's playoff play isn't as bad as it's sometimes made out to be, but few can compare to Kurri.

 

[greatgazoo]

This is a close call but in the end I have to go with Kurri by a nose. Here's the evidence:

top 10 pts
kurri 6
selanne 6

top 10 goals
kurri 4
selanne 6

top 10 assists
kurri 3
selanne 4

50+ goal seasons
kurri 4
selanne 3

100+ seasons
kurri 6
selanne 4

40+ goal seasons
kurri 7
selanne 7

playoffs goals per game career
kurri .53
selanne .333

1st or 2nd team all-star
kurri 5
selanne 4

 

[Starchild74]

Jari Kurri is the greatest Finnish player ever and Selanne will never ever in my opinion equal Kurri. Now Selanne is great and the second best Finnish player ever as of now but seriously some on here are not realizing what Kurri did in his career

First of all some might say that he played for the Oilers in the 80's and that is why he got the points that he did. Just because you play for a great team doesn't mean that you will get alot of points. Just because you played in the 1980's it doesn't mena you will get alot of points. Kurri scored alot of goals and points because he was good. Their was just chemistry with Gretzky that no one could explain. It was like they knew exactly where the other was going to be.

But let's look at Kurri. It is one thing to put up good numbers for a year or so but he did it consistantly. Every year Kurri was one of the top goal scorers in the league and on the team. If a player has one good year or maybe two then it can labelled as playing on a great team. However when a player does this for aprox. 10 years straight then the odds are that he was great.

Now I know that regular season means more on here then playoffs. But Kurri was a big part of the Oilers for 5 of their cup runs. Also don't forget in 1983 he was a big part of Edmonton getting to the final. He produced at a great pace including some amazing totals in those years. Even after Gretzky left Kurri was a main part of the Oilers winning the Cup.

If you compare the players seriously forget the names just look at what the two players are

The first is a 5 time Stanley Cup winner. Very consistent goal scorer and good defensively. In his prime was considered on eof the best goal scorers in the NHL and the most dangerous goal scorer in the playoffs in his prime

The other a pure skilled player who had some great years then a period of so so years then ending his career again as a top player. Never led too many of his teams to the playoffs and just an okay playoff record

Now I know alot on here love Selanne that must be the only reason why some have picked him over Kurri

I will not put Selanne down as their is no need to but come on. Jari Kurri was part of one of the greatest teams in NHL history. He was not a passenger he was a key part of the team. Would Selanne have done as well if he played with the Oilers who knows and who cares. It is not about what might have been or what could have been.

Jari Kurri did it and Selanne didn't now if you want to talk about pure skill then yes I would give the edge to Selanne only because he was a faster skater the Kurri and maybe more skilled. Not that Kurri wasn't good either but I can understand an argument that Selanne might have had more skill. However when you look at their careers together and see what one did and the other did. There is no way that Selanne's career could even compare with Kurri. The only thing Selanne has going for him is he played longer and had a better international record. That is it

 

[RECsGuy*]

This is a close call but in the end I have to go with Kurri by a nose. Here's the evidence:

top 10 pts
kurri 6
selanne 6

top 10 goals
kurri 4
selanne 6

top 10 assists
kurri 3
selanne 4

50+ goal seasons
kurri 4
selanne 3

100+ seasons
kurri 6
selanne 4

40+ goal seasons
kurri 7
selanne 7

playoffs goals per game career
kurri .53
selanne .333

1st or 2nd team all-star
kurri 5
selanne 4

Check out the statistical nosedive Kuri's career took at just 30 years old. No longer playing with Gretzky and Coffey, Jari mustered a whopping 33 goals in '89-'90, which represented his lowest single season goal scoring total in eight years and the most goals he would score in a season for the rest of his career (seven more seasons).

 

[kmad]

Check out the statistical nosedive Kuri's career took at just 30 years old. No longer playing with Gretzky and Coffey, Jari mustered a whopping 33 goals in '89-'90, which represented his lowest single season goal scoring total in eight years and the most goals he would score in a season for the rest of his career (seven more seasons).

1) You're not mentioning that despite 33 goals he still hit 93 points, which is pretty good.

2) That was his second year without Gretzky and his third without Coffey. The previous season he got 44 goals for 102 points and led the team in scoring.

 

[Dominus]

Can somebody refresh my memory? Why the hell did Kurri go to Italy after 89-90 season? Did the Oilers not offer him a contract? Or did he not accept the offer? And they still had his rights?

To me that kinda career move seems really weird now. It was weird back then too, but I was only 11 years old so I can't really remember...

 

[Starchild74]

Another point about Kurri and how dominating he was in the playoffs. Jari Kurri scored 71 even strength goals. Teemu Selanne only has 72 points in his career Jari Kurri scored more even strength goals then Selanne has points.

Jari Kurri has 25 power play goals in his career in the playoffs Selanne only has a total of 35 goals in his career. The only category that Selanne performs better then Kurri is game winning goals.

Regular season Kurri was more consistent

consecutive goal seasons

20g a season Kurri 13 Selanne 11
30g a season Kurri 10 Selanne 6
40g a season Kurri 7 Selanne 4
50g a season Kurri 4 Selanne 2
60g a season Kurri 2 Selanne 0

Consecuitve assists a season

20a a season Kurri 13 Selanne 11
30a a season Kurri 13 Selanne 6
40a a season Kurri 10 Selanne 2
50a a season Kurri 9 Selanne 2
60a a season Kurri 3 Selanne 1

Consecutive points a season

40pts a season Kurri 13 Selanne 11
50pts a season Kurri 13 Selanne 8
60pts a season Kurri 13 Selanne 6
70pts a season Kurri 10 Selanne 6
80pts a season Kurri 9 Selanne 5
90pts a season Kurri 8 Selanne 2
100pts a season Kurri 5 Selanne 2

Now some say Selanne wins on longevity so let's take a look at it

Most Goal seasons

Most 20g seasons Selanne 15 Kurri 13
Most 30g seasons Kurri 10 Selanne 9
Most 40g seasons Kurri 7 Selanne 7
Most 50g seasons Kurri 4 Selanne 3
Most 60g seasons Kurri 2 Selanne 1
Most 70g seasons Selanne 1 Kurri 1

Most assists seasons

Most 20a seasons Kurri 13 Selanne 13
Most 30a seasons Kurri 13 Selanne 10
Most 40a seasons Kurri 12 Selanne 7
Most 50a seasons Kurri 10 Selanne 6
Most 60a seasons Kurri 5 Selanne 2


Most points seasons

Most 40pts seasons Selanne 15 Kurri 14
Most 50pts seasons Selanne 13 Kurri 13
Most 60pts seasons Kurri 13 Selanne 9
Most 70pts seasons Kurri 12 Selanne 9
Most 80pts seasons Kurri 10 Selanne 8
Most 90pts seasons Kurri 8 Selanne 8
Most 100pts seasons Kurri 6 Selanne 4
Most 110pts seasons Kurri 3 Selanne 1
Most 120pts seasons Kurri 2 Selanne 1
Most 130pts seasons Kurri 2 Selanne 1

 

[Starchild74]

Can somebody refresh my memory? Why the hell did Kurri go to Italy after 89-90 season? Did the Oilers not offer him a contract? Or did he not accept the offer? And they still had his rights?

To me that kinda career move seems really weird now. It was weird back then too, but I was only 11 years old so I can't really remember...

If I remember correctly and if the rumours were true. Jari Kurri wanted to be traded to Los Angeles and play with Gretzky. He felt that Gretzky should never have been traded and missed playing with him. I think some of it had to do that Kurri was no longer on the first line anymore. He was playing with Mark Lamb and maybe he knew the end was near in Edmonton.

So he left and decided to play in Italy rather then play for the Oilers. Sather at the time wouldn't trade him. When it came down to it Sather traded him to the Flyers who sent him right away to the Kings

 

[RorschachWJK]

Yes. I put a lot of value in best-on-best international hockey and there Selänne has been simply exceptional.

Also, in the NHL he played mostly in the low-scoring era and yet has racked up those numbers .

 

[FinProspects]

One of the hardest comparisons to decide.

Selänne has the edge on:
- Offensive play. The most talented offensive player from Finland. (
- Huge contribution after lockout/knee problems (from 35y old to..well who knows how long he might play). (Kurri´s last years were..well, not so good)
- Played on a pathetic team in his prime-> no playoff succress. (Kurri played on the greatest dynasty NHL has ever witnessed)
- Zero supporting cast aside from Kariya in his prime. (Gretzky, Messier, Coffey, Tikkanen, Anderson, Lowe etc etc)
- Played his prime on deadpuck-era (96-02) and still managed to score impressive totals. (Kurri played in the highest scoring era of the hockey history)
- Longevity. Teemu has been a top winger in the NHL for almost two decades (92-00) now, and is presently scoring over p/game as a 40-year old (Kurri was a top winger in the 80s and early nineties, not so much after 93-94 season)

Kurri has the edge on:
-Two way play. (Amazing two-way play+offensive play.. Forsberg is the only European player who has been as complete as Jari was)
-Playoff success. (5 rings? or was it 4?.. Anyway, this is quite clear)
-Playoff totals. (Kurri was more suitable for playoff-games than Teemu, thats for sure. And he was way better also, not close actually..Teemu somewhat disappeared in the playoffs, altough he wasnt that bad.)


The international play should not be included when comparing NHL careers. Teemu had more opportunities in international games, and had amazing linemates. Kurri didnt have the chances, because he was busy winning Cups in the 80´s.

I must admit, that I grew up watching Teemu in the 90´s, so I´m a huge fan. Didnt see Kurri that much (aside from higlights, some classic games..of course I have red his biography book) but I think that I have fairly good knowledge on how special Jari was in the 80´s.

All in all, I cannot decide. It so close it isnt even funny.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

At this point I'd place Selanne ahead of Kurri. It's still fairly close though.

 

[jepjepjoo]

top5 in Goals:

Selanne: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd and 3rd
Kurri: 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th

top5 in points:

Selanne: 2nd, 2nd, 5th, and 5th
Kurri: 2nd, 2nd and 4th

top10 in assists:

Selanne: 4th, 7th, 9th and 9th
Kurri: 9th, 9th and 10th

All star selections:

Selanne: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd and 1st rookie
Kurri: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd and 2nd

All star games: (not important)

Selanne: 10
Kurri: 8

Goals adjusted:

Selanne 67
Selanne 64
Kurri 62
Selanne 58
Kurri 58
Selanne 57
Selanne 54
Kurri 50
Kurri 44
Selanne 43
Selanne 43
Selanne 42
Kurri 40

Points adjusted:

Selanne 131
Selanne 122
Kurri 117
Selanne 116
Selanne 113
Kurri 112
Selanne 106
Selanne 103
Kurri 101
Selanne 99
Kurri 97
Selanne 94
Selanne 94
Kurri 92
Kurri 91

Olympics:

Selanne: 31gp 20g 18a 38pts (all time scoring leader, Most goals in 92 and 06, Most points in 98 and 06, best forward 06)
Kurri: 13gp 3g 5a 8pts

Selanne's playoff resume isn't that bad if you look past the stats:

Under 30 years old(prime):

1992-93 6gp 4g 2a 6pts
1996-97 11gp 7g 3a 10pts (There's Paul Kariya & Teemu Selanne then there's Brian Bellows & Joe Sacco... Pretty easy to shut down)
1998-99 4gp 2g 2a 4pts

21 gp 13g 7a 20pts (51 goals per 82gp)

30-33 yo (The knee years)

00-01 6gp 0g 2a 2pts (He played with a broken wrist and a broken thumb and had a minor knee surgery a month before the playoffs to remove a loose ligament)
01-02 12gp 5g 3a 8pts (the knee + the defensive system of San Jose)
03-04 10gp 0g 3a 3pts (The knee was so bad that he was thinking about ending his career. He played on the 3rd and 4th lines)

28gp 5g 7a 12pts

35-36 yo (The comeback)

05-06 16gp 6g 8a 14pts (1st in pts)
06-07 21gp 5g 10a 15pts (2nd in pts)

37gp 11g 18a 29pts (most by any Duck during the 2 year period by 5 points)

37-39 yo (Back from retirement)

07-08 6gp 2g 2a 4pts (The whole team sucked. Getzlaf and Pronger had 5pts. Selanne played with Weight who had 1 assist)
08-09 13gp 4g 2a 6pts (There's not much you can do if your linemates are Eric Christensen and Andrew Ebbett)

19gp 6g 4a 10pts

Selanne got to play 21 playoff games in his prime.

Kurri doesn't need excuses for playoffs tho... BUT, after he turned 30 he only scored 31pts in 54games.

 

[begbeee]

By the comparision by jepjepjoo is Selanne close better but clearly. I agree.