Hart Trophy Perspective or Perry=Jagr=Bathgate

[hfboardsuser]

Here's how I myself would rank them based both on in-season performance and consistency as a top performer.

Top 25:

1st- Bobby Orr '70 (Best season ever IMO)
2nd- Bobby Orr '72 (Close second, minus the Art Ross)
3rd- Wayne Gretzky '85
4th- Wayne Gretzky '86
5th- Dominik Hasek '98
6th- Dominik Hasek '97
7th- Phil Esposito '74
8th- Brett Hull '91
9th- Mario Lemieux '88
10th- Howie Morenz '28
11th- Wayne Gretzky '82
12th- Mario Lemieux '93
13th- Alex Ovechkin '08
14th- Jaromir Jagr '99
15th- Jacques Plante '62
16th- Sergei Fedorov '94
17th- Bobby Orr '71
18th- Bobby Clarke '76
19th- Jean Beliveau '56
20th- Joe Thornton '06
21st- Sidney Crosby '07
22nd- Bobby Hull '66
23rd- Bobby Clarke '72
24th- Bobby Clarke '76
25th- Maurice Richard '47

"Worst" 10:

68th- Ted Kennedy '52 (really odd one; 2nd on own team in points)
69th- Ebbie Goodfellow '40 (4th in pts among D and 2nd on team, but bad club and didn't appear to significantly help defensively)
70th- Babe Siebert '37 (lifetime achievement Hart)
71st- Billy Burch '25 (Perry with three more TTPs)
72nd- Frank Nighbor '24 (lifetime achievement Hart)
73rd- Chuck Rayner '50 (Hart yet 2nd team goalie?)
74th- Corey Perry '11 (too early in his career to judge fairly)
75rd- Al Rollins '54 (A singular Vezina otherwise)
76th- Roy Worters '29 (most puzzling IMO, but has career)
77th- Jose Theodore '02 (Never won another major award, nor was he even a SAST ever again)

 

[seventieslord]

- what is wrong with worters' hart?
- for Nighbor to make your list is for you to lack understanding of just how dominant he was defensively.
- I think you mean 54 or 55 for kennedy, and that was truly a lifetime achievement award. It should be #1.
- siebert and goodfellow's harts are defensible as well.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I'm pretty sure that if a poll was done in 1992 that greater than 50% would want Messier on their team over Hull.

They actually did a poll at the end of the 1992 Regular Season, weighing Messier against everyone in the NHL. Messier won 67-2. They even gave him a trophy.


1. All Hart Trophies are created equal.

2. Mark Messier's 1992 Hart Trophy is more equal than some of the others. /animalfarm

 

[overpass]

- what is wrong with worters' hart?
- for Nighbor to make your list is for you to lack understanding of just how dominant he was defensively.
- I think you mean 54 or 55 for kennedy, and that was truly a lifetime achievement award. It should be #1.
- siebert and goodfellow's harts are defensible as well.

Nighbor's Hart was among the closest votes ever, so it's defensible to list it among the weaker winners. Top 3 vote totals were 37-36-35.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Here's how I myself would rank them based both on in-season performance and consistency as a top performer.

Top 25:

1st- Bobby Orr '70 (Best season ever IMO)
2nd- Bobby Orr '72 (Close second, minus the Art Ross)
3rd- Wayne Gretzky '85
4th- Wayne Gretzky '86
5th- Dominik Hasek '98
6th- Dominik Hasek '97
7th- Phil Esposito '74
8th- Brett Hull '91
9th- Mario Lemieux '88
10th- Howie Morenz '28
11th- Wayne Gretzky '82
12th- Mario Lemieux '93
13th- Alex Ovechkin '08
14th- Jaromir Jagr '99
15th- Jacques Plante '62
16th- Sergei Fedorov '94
17th- Bobby Orr '71
18th- Bobby Clarke '76
19th- Jean Beliveau '56
20th- Joe Thornton '06
21st- Sidney Crosby '07
22nd- Bobby Hull '66
23rd- Bobby Clarke '72
24th- Bobby Clarke '76
25th- Maurice Richard '47

Gordie Howe's 1951-52 Hart trophy season easily deserves to be on this list, possibly in the top ten (he led the league in goals by a staggering 52% margin, and led the league in points by a 25% margin, while being at worst an above-average defensive player).

His 1952-53 Hart trophy season is perhaps even more deserving (leading the league in goals by 63%, assists, and points by a 34 margin over his linemate Ted Lindsay, and a Gretzky-like 56% margin over his closest non-teammate, again while being a good defensive forward).

 

[Iain Fyffe]

"Worst" 10:

72nd- Frank Nighbor '24 (lifetime achievement Hart)
77th- Jose Theodore '02 (Never won another major award, nor was he even a SAST ever again)

Confused by this. Theodore's was bad because he didn't have much of a career outside of that one great season, yet Nighbor's was bad because it was for career achievement? You seem to be judging them on different bases: Theodore on a career basis and Nighbor on a season basis.

 

[livewell68]

Here's how I myself would rank them based both on in-season performance and consistency as a top performer.

Top 25:

1st- Bobby Orr '70 (Best season ever IMO)
2nd- Bobby Orr '72 (Close second, minus the Art Ross)
3rd- Wayne Gretzky '85
4th- Wayne Gretzky '86
5th- Dominik Hasek '98
6th- Dominik Hasek '97
7th- Phil Esposito '74
8th- Brett Hull '91
9th- Mario Lemieux '88
10th- Howie Morenz '28
11th- Wayne Gretzky '82
12th- Mario Lemieux '93
13th- Alex Ovechkin '08
14th- Jaromir Jagr '99
15th- Jacques Plante '62
16th- Sergei Fedorov '94
17th- Bobby Orr '71
18th- Bobby Clarke '76
19th- Jean Beliveau '56
20th- Joe Thornton '06
21st- Sidney Crosby '07
22nd- Bobby Hull '66
23rd- Bobby Clarke '72
24th- Bobby Clarke '76
25th- Maurice Richard '47

"Worst" 10:

68th- Ted Kennedy '52 (really odd one; 2nd on own team in points)
69th- Ebbie Goodfellow '40 (4th in pts among D and 2nd on team, but bad club and didn't appear to significantly help defensively)
70th- Babe Siebert '37 (lifetime achievement Hart)
71st- Billy Burch '25 (Perry with three more TTPs)
72nd- Frank Nighbor '24 (lifetime achievement Hart)
73rd- Chuck Rayner '50 (Hart yet 2nd team goalie?)
74th- Corey Perry '11 (too early in his career to judge fairly)
75rd- Al Rollins '54 (A singular Vezina otherwise)
76th- Roy Worters '29 (most puzzling IMO, but has career)
77th- Jose Theodore '02 (Never won another major award, nor was he even a SAST ever again)

Maybe it's just me but Ovechkin doesn't deserve to be that high with his 2008 season.

Jagr should also be there for 1996, 2000 and 2006.

Or do I have this all wrong? Is it only for Hart winning seasons?

It seems to me you're putting too much emphasis on raw numbers instead of looking at the context.

For instance Esposito had Orr so his Hart is not as impressive.

Brett Hull's Hart winning season is put on a pedestal but he had Oates that season who had pretty darn good assist totals.

Ovechkin didn't even win the Art Ross by a large margin in 2008.

Jagr won the Art Ross in 1999 by 20 Pts playing in the Dead Puck Era that favored low scoring games and goalies. He also did it by outscoring his nearest linemate by 44 Pts.

Hasek's seasons look impressive on paper but the context was that it was the Dead Puck Era and although his numbers were better than the rest of the goalies, the rest of the goalies' numbers would have been good enough to win them Vezina trophies in any other era. So overall goalies looked better in regards to forwards.

Compare Hasek's numbers to Brodeur's numbers in Hasek's 2 Hart winning seasons and you see what I mean by this. Goalies all put up very impressive numbers during the Dead Puck Era. The games were won because of great goaltending, and that position was more important than any other position.

Now there is an emphasis on good team defense, two-way forwards, but back then goalies stole games all the time.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Interesting

Interesting so far. Brief overview from the first to last Hart Trophy, touching on the shifting perceptions of Most Valuable player from season to season and since the start.

Please keep in mind that the playoffs are not part of the Hart Trophy considerations.

The most interesting issue is the perception of individual dominance within the league relative the value that a player brought to the team

Prime example Gordie Howe dominated the league in early fifties and the Red Wings finished first. Gordie Howe earned two Hart Trophies. Yet during the 1954-55 season when Gordie Howe did not lead the Red Wings in scoring the team still finished first. Ted Kennedy won the Hart.

Such situations lead to the inevitable debate between being outstanding, being valuable and being the difference maker.