Hakstol v Berube

[Striiker]

It's always amusing to see people who think that they're the only ones who are non biased and seeing clearly, shedding light on us ignorant sheep and challenging us to enlighten ourselves.

Your problem is that you're incapable of realizing, or too stubborn to realize, that this exact topic has been explained many times... including a few thousand times in this one thread.

If you think that it was just a bad team that screwed over Berube then you're beyond clueless. You just have some strange, idiotic need to remove him from as much blame as possible.

So, for the last time, the team was flawed, but Berube made it so so so so much worse than it needed to be by being as ****** of a coach as possible. The coaches job is to get the most possible out of his team. Even if the team is bad his job is to get them to play as well as possible... he did the exact opposite. He took an already mediocre team and made them play worse than they should have by making horrible decisions.

But of course I'm wasting my time typing this. You're not going to learn. You're going to keep pretending Berube got the short end of the stick by doing his best with a team that let him down.

Pathetic.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Those who think this was a good team that Berube deep sixed are clueless.

Find a single person who has said this. Please. I'll wait, but I'll be waiting indefinitely.

Those who think this was a bad team that deep sixed Berube, who was over his head trying to coach up a mess, are not.

Well, you're flat out wrong. What we saw was what happens when you hand a flawed roster to one of the worst coaches in the NHL. The team didn't get Berube fired. Berube got himself fired. It's been explained to you in detail why, but you seemingly just ignore that. You just ignore what actually happened so you can defend a failed coach who is never going to sniff a HC position ever again.

I think the reason people want to blame Berube is denial, if he's the problem then replacing him means we don't have to go through the pain of rebuilding, because it's all the coach's fault.

Yeah, no. I just gave you a long list of reasons why Berube was bad. None of it had to do with denial, all of it had to do with Berube doing bad things.

Fortunately Hextall is nobody's fool, he's spent the last two years patiently trying to get out of cap hell, accumulating draft picks to replenish a "farm system" that was thin on talent, refusing to rush young prospects, and waiting until he could hire a coach that had a similar philosophy (i.e. not hiring a name to placate fans). Which means this season isn't going to be a huge jump over last season, because Hextall is building for the long-term. No big trades, no big FA signing, a coach who'll need time to learn the ropes. No magical solutions, no miracle coach, no savior free agent.

Fortunately Hextall is no fool, so he recognized the coach was damaging the team and making winning harder. So now we have a new coach. If the coach wasn't a problem and was actually doing a good job, then he'd still be here.

 

[CodyTheHuman]

Those who think this was a good team that Berube deep sixed are clueless.
Those who think this was a bad team that deep sixed Berube, who was over his head trying to coach up a mess, are not.

I think the reason people want to blame Berube is denial, if he's the problem then replacing him means we don't have to go through the pain of rebuilding, because it's all the coach's fault.

Fortunately Hextall is nobody's fool, he's spent the last two years patiently trying to get out of cap hell, accumulating draft picks to replenish a "farm system" that was thin on talent, refusing to rush young prospects, and waiting until he could hire a coach that had a similar philosophy (i.e. not hiring a name to placate fans). Which means this season isn't going to be a huge jump over last season, because Hextall is building for the long-term. No big trades, no big FA signing, a coach who'll need time to learn the ropes. No magical solutions, no miracle coach, no savior free agent.

You don't seem to understand that people aren't saying that this is a contender team. People are acknowledging that the team is flawed, but that Berube's horrible coaching decisions (of which there were a lot, as you have been shown multiple times in this thread) made it harder for a team that should have made the playoffs, probably as the 8th seed, perform to the level that was actually expected.

 

[Curufinwe]

Those who think this was a good team that Berube deep sixed are clueless.
Those who think this was a bad team that deep sixed Berube, who was over his head trying to coach up a mess, are not.

I think the reason people want to blame Berube is denial

No, denial is the reason you want to excuse his very obvious failings.

Hextall fired him because he did a bad job. He hasn't been hired anywhere else because he did a bad job. Eventually, you'll have to accept that.

 

[deadhead]

You don't seem to understand that people aren't saying that this is a contender team. People are acknowledging that the team is flawed, but that Berube's horrible coaching decisions (of which there were a lot, as you have been shown multiple times in this thread) made it harder for a team that should have made the playoffs, probably as the 8th seed, perform to the level that was actually expected.

But aren't you saying they're a contending team, "a team that should have made the playoffs", i.e. a 100 point team that should have been ranked pre-season (before TSN would have known Berube was awful) around 12-15th?

And there were flaws that no coach could have worked around, shootouts aren't really something you can practice, that's like practicing dunking in basketball! One on one play is usually what coaches try to beat OUT of their players. The bad backup goalies couldn't really be protected when your starter has limited durability (Mason is not a workhorse goalie). The defense, well, what coach could make them better than below average?

My point is that this team wasn't a playoff caliber team last year, and probably won't be this year, and it isn't due to coaching, it's due to lack of talent. Hextall knows this, unlike Holmgren, he's not in denial and won't rely on some quick fix (experienced coach for a one year jump, cap clearing deals to buy a FA or two by sacrificing future draft picks). He hired Hakstol because he's not worried about making the playoffs this season. That would be a side benefit of a lot of things going right (health, finding the right mix of wingers, kids maturing quickly in Allentown).

That's exactly why I say fans are in denial, if you think Berube is the reason the Flyers weren't a playoff team, you're giving him more credit than he deserves. He may have helped them get a better draft pick, but he didn't cost them 20 points.

 

[YEM]

made it harder for a team that should have made the playoffs, probably as the 8th seed, perform to the level that was actually expected.

they shouldn't have made the playoffs
everyone who did was objectively better than them

 

[Striiker]

I've never seen a thread where something is explained so many times and it just flys over the guys head every single time and he pretends nobody had explained it.

This is some advanced stage denial.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

He may have helped them get a better draft pick, but he didn't cost them 20 points.

i'd say his stupid line use and game time decisions cost us pretty much exactly that..

remove Berube last season with just about another other NHL ready coach and we dont end up with the point total we had...

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I've never seen a thread where something is explained so many times and it just flys over the guys head every single time and he pretends nobody had explained it.

This is some advanced stage denial.

this isn't as bad as BP74 and his over the top defending of Bryzgalov

 

[Striiker]

this isn't as bad as BP74 and his over the top defending of Bryzgalov

OK we'll call it even.

 

[Garbage Goal]

they shouldn't have made the playoffs
everyone who did was objectively better than them

The Sens made the playoffs, they aren't objectively better then us. They had a better coach, a goalie on an insane once-in-his-lifetime hot streak, and lost in the first round.

Edit: Saying the Flyers should have been a playoff team is a little too optimistic. They should have been a fringe team at least though, not at the absolute bottom of the barrel. That's pretty obvious. Well, to most people.

 

[deadhead]

i'd say his stupid line use and game time decisions cost us pretty much exactly that..

remove Berube last season with just about another other NHL ready coach and we dont end up with the point total we had...

So who was the coach in 2013-2014 when we ended up with 94 points despite starting 0-3?
And who was the coach in 2012-2013 when we were on pace for 84 points?

Are you suggesting that last year's team, sans Kimmo and Hartnell, with Read hobbled, was more talented than those teams? [yes, the goalie was 10 goals better than 2 years ago, but the rest of the team was probably more than 10 goals worse]

I doubt Berube cost this team as many as 10 points, and they might have been worse with a coach who tried to implement a wide open system with the players they had last year.

 

[YEM]

The Sens made the playoffs, they aren't objectively better then us.

they had a winning record against the Flyers, were 15 points better also
they were +23 in GD, while scoring 23 more goals and allowing 19 less goals than the Flyers, who were -19 in GD
hence, objectively=better, any way you look at it

 

[Curufinwe]

The awful changes he made to the PK cost them 10 points on its own.

 

[Striiker]

So who was the coach in 2013-2014 when we ended up with 94 points despite starting 0-3?
And who was the coach in 2012-2013 when we were on pace for 84 points?

Are you suggesting that last year's team, sans Kimmo and Hartnell, with Read hobbled, was more talented than those teams? [yes, the goalie was 10 goals better than 2 years ago, but the rest of the team was probably more than 10 goals worse]

I doubt Berube cost this team as many as 10 points, and they might have been worse with a coach who tried to implement a wide open system with the players they had last year.

OK, he officially didn't watch the Flyers this year. No other excuse for this stupidity.

 

[royals119]

shootouts aren't really something you can practice,

I will admit, up front, that I've never seen an NHL team practice, but I've seen a lot of ECHL practices, and shootouts are definitely something they practice. Typically at the end of practice, with some kind of bet or incentive on the line to make it competitive.

 

[deadhead]

they had a winning record against the Flyers, were 15 points better also
they were +23 in GD, while scoring 23 more goals and allowing 19 less goals than the Flyers, who were -19 in GD
hence, objectively=better, any way you look at it

No, get with the program.

With another coach the Flyers would have scored 20 more goals and given up 20 less goals.

Didn't you watch the games? Berube played Rinaldo when he could have played Vinnie, oops, Akeson, oops, . . .

He didn't use Giroux enough, who actually was 3rd in minutes played per game (7 seconds behind Tavares). Vorecek (13th among RWs) played a whole minute less per game than Kane, so that must have cost them a lot of goals.

The PK was below average, but Berube was the coach the year before when it was above average, so maybe the real problem was the change in personnel. The funny thing is they had 50 less power plays to kill last year.

I've never claimed Berube was a good coach, but to credit him with a 20 goal swing on both offense and on defense is ridiculous. This wasn't a good team the two previous seasons, why would anyone have expected them to be better last year without Kimmo and Hartnell, Read injured, no backup goalie, etc. If they were a 94 point team the year before (and that was a significant improvement over Laviolette who is now a good coach in Nashville?), what was a reasonable expectation for last season?

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

there was at times a half dozen times at least where Berube sends out the 4th line for a OZ draw. many times after a media time out when the top line had ample time to rest up. Does having Giroux, Jake and Simmonds out there for a OZ draw after a media timeout guarantee a goal? no but your chances are much higher of generating something.
Yes it was a flawed roster. Any sane Flyer fan will admit that, but that being said if you think Berube got everything you could out of this roster than you have not been paying attention at all.
Berube was constantly outcoached. Especially on the road. he couldn't play the matchup game to save his life.

 

[Rebels57]

Anyone who actually watched the games last year would not defend Berube.

The only fans that defend Berube are those that instead of watching the games, just comment on Facebook threads and Flyers message boards.

Berube was a complete and total buffoon behind the bench, pretty much start to finish last season.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Actually, with a better coach we may well allow at least 20 fewer goals because of semi-competent line and TOI management, as well as not completely destroying the PK. Berube's idiotically aggressive PK allowed 57 goals last season. The season before: 43. That's 14 goals right there. Another 6 can easily be accounted for thanks to Berube's terrible line matching and game management in general.


Giroux not being made to play unbelievably conservatively would have certainly added another 5-10 goals for us, but I don't know how much above that they could've gone due to the D group.

 

[Striiker]

Also remember how halfway through the games the 1st line would regularly have similar TOI to the 4th line?

Then he would rectify that atrocity by basically double shifting them for the last half of the game, which could certainly make them less effective if they're not getting enough rest between shifts.

And maybe if he didn't save them so much during the first half of the game the team wouldn't be in a position where we NEEDED to be double shifted for the rest of the game to facilitate a comeback.

 

[deadhead]

So the loss of Kimmo had no impact on the PK.
Replacing half the PK guys had no impact.

What kind of TOI management? Giroux was maxed out, Vorecek was used as much as most top RWs? Whose minutes would you have increased?

"Giroux not being made to play unbelievably conservatively would have certainly added another 5-10 goals for us" and probably 5-10 goals for our opponents as well.

Berube may not have done a good job, but anyone who didn't have an axe to grind (and slam it between his eyes) would admit that with any coach this wasn't a 90+ point team last year - it's not like they were a 100 point team in 2013-2014 that went out and made significant additions - it was a 94 point team (and that was a 10 point jump over the previous season) that had significant losses.

 

[Mkoll]

If Berube was actually a good coach, wouldnt he have a job coaching by now?

 

[Rebels57]

So the loss of Kimmo had no impact on the PK.
Replacing half the PK guys had no impact.

What kind of TOI management? Giroux was maxed out, Vorecek was used as much as most top RWs? Whose minutes would you have increased?

"Giroux not being made to play unbelievably conservatively would have certainly added another 5-10 goals for us" and probably 5-10 goals for our opponents as well.

Berube may not have done a good job, but anyone who didn't have an axe to grind (and slam it between his eyes) would admit that with any coach this wasn't a 90+ point team last year - it's not like they were a 100 point team in 2013-2014 that went out and made significant additions - it was a 94 point team (and that was a 10 point jump over the previous season) that had significant losses.

Finally.

End: Thread

 

[deadhead]

I never said Berube was a good coach, my point was this wasn't a good team with ANY coach. Berube is the fan scapegoat for Holmgren's screwups. Laviolette crashed and burned with the same talent. Is he a terrible coach?

Once you get away from Berube hate, a realistic fan has realistic expectations of what this team is going to do under Hakstol, until the young defensemen are ready, we're gonna have to pray Streit doesn't feel his age, Medvedev is for real, Mac can bounce back, Shultz continues to play better than journeyman level, etc. And until some young wingers emerge, pray there are no injuries.

Hakstol may be able to get this team to play more coherent hockey, but he's gonna need Hextall to get him some more talent, and Hextall is going to need a year or two to clear out the bad contracts.