Habs Wing Depth

[DJJones]

Great depth but who cares. Top 9 are really the only ones that matter

A more interesting question is how many teams would trade their wingers for Montreals. The number would drop sharply.

 

[T REX]

How many teams have two 30 goalscorers on their 2nd line, talent like Drouin and Anderson on the 3rd line, and then guys like Armia, Lehkonen, Byron, and Perreault as their 7th to 10th best wingers?

Drouin?

Buwahahahahahaha

 

[BlueBaron]

This isn't about the Leafs.

Yeah you got me...our forwards are lousy offensively. We wish we had a good winger or two.... .

Are you being ironic? Well you are but was it planned? You get that Marner alone is worth 2 Hab wingers offensively right? Do you know who Nylander is?

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Top 9 IMO. Despite lacking elite talent every position is a TOP 9 winger.

Sure, but none of them are close to being elite.

Caufield COULD be elite.

I would not say our group is better, but we have two guys who are more productive than any of theirs.

The Habs have good depth everywhere, but they have no top talent outside of Price.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Where does the Habs wing group rank in the league?

Toffoli - x - Caufield
Hoffman - x - Gallagher
Drouin - x - Anderson
Lehkonen - x - Armia
Perreault - x - Byron
Paquette

It's deep but the overall talent level isn't very high, in my opinion.

Toffoli is a pretty good and I'd rate him as either a lower tier 1st liner or a higher tier 2nd liner. He was the 8th highest scoring RW last season, and 23rd highest scoring winger total but not someone that screams game breaker. I don't think he's going to score as much next season and probably reverts back to 50ish point Toffoli.
Hoffman is a set powerplay shooter who is a defensive liability (A downgrade from Tatar). What he adds in scoring might not offset the additional goals against he's going to cost Montreal.
Gallagher and Caulfield are undersized goalscoring wingers that I think can be counted on for 50ish points.
Their 3rd line has 2 2nd line wingers in Anderson and Drouin, but I don't think Drouin plays much next year. Anderson would be better for Montreal playing up in Hoffman's spot on the 2nd line.
And their 4th line has 2 3rd line wingers in Lehkonen and Armia.

I think it's good and probably top 10 in the league but without better centers it's to imagine them being that effective over a full 82 game season. Suzuki is a legit top 6 center but I'm not sold on Kotkaniemi in a top 6 role, and Jake Evans and Cedric Paquette as the bottom 6 centers is as bad as Detroit and Buffalo.

 

[BlueBaron]

Gallagher, while a talented player, is a 50 point winger it appears. Toffoli remains to be seen considering his career sample size. Hoffman has talent but clearly flawed as well. Anderson is a middle six winger. Drouin, who knows? Following that group, depth wingers are depth wingers. Every team has depth.

It is fine to be excited for your team but you may be finding yourself quite underwhelmed when the divisions and competition return to normal this season, regarding regular season points/goals totals.

Middle of the pack forward group.

Habs fans are the same every summer. Their team is perfect until reality slaps them in the face. Add their recent Cinderella run and they will be Cup contenders until they look like they might miss, then Bergevin becomes an idiot again. Rinse and repeat. Best summer fans ever.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Top 15. Lots of depth but lacking the elite winger at this point. Could change with Caufield but we need to see it for a full season first.

 

[Captain97]

I think the definition of depth here is important, the Habs 3rd line winger next year are likely Drouin and Anderson. So 25 goal power forward and a 45-50 point play maker.

The 4th line will likely be Perrault and Armia.

So we have 2nd line wingers on the 3rd line and 3rd line wingers on the 4th. To me that says the Winger group is very deep.

But the other argument is the only high end wingers we have are Toffoli and maybe caufield depending on how good he is over a full year.

So depending on your definition of depth I think you either have to say near the top or near the middle.

 

[Captain97]

Habs fans are the same every summer. Their team is perfect until reality slaps them in the face. Add their recent Cinderella run and they will be Cup contenders until they look like they might miss, then Bergevin becomes an idiot again. Rinse and repeat. Best summer fans ever.

Lol,

When it comes to fanbases I feel like this is a Kettle meet pot type scenario.

 

[TS Quint]

In no particular order:

Better than Montreal:

• Boston
• Hurricanes
• Florida
• Rangers
• Flyers
• Tampa
• Vegas
• Washington

I'm on the fence:

• Columbus
• Colorado
• Dallas
• Islanders
• Seattle
• Blues
• Vancouver

And I'm not sure who the wingers are on the Jets after Ehlers, Connor, Wheeler, but that would take some garbage down the lineup for their winger group to not be at least equivalent to Montreal's.

That means there are 8 teams clearly better than Montreal on the wings, and 7 that I'm not sure. Colorado for example has the obvious star power advantage (Rantanen - Landeskog), but I prefer Montreal's "bottom 6" wingers.

I selected top 12, as I'm really hopeful Caufield and Hoffman can make it a team that has a scoring option on each line.

Copp with 39 points would have been easily the #2 winger on the Habs last year and the Jets gave away Appleton who had 24 points was tied for Andersson for 3rd on the Habs wingers for points.

I don’t see the depth on the Habs as anything special. If the point is they have great 4th line wingers then sure….I guess. But their lack of overall talent hurts them.

 

[abo9]

Copp with 39 points would have been easily the #2 winger on the Habs last year and the Jets gave away Appleton who had 24 points was tied for Andersson for 3rd on the Habs wingers for points.

I don’t see the depth on the Habs as anything special. If the point is they have great 4th line wingers then sure….I guess. But their lack of overall talent hurts them.

Yeah for the Jets I just wasn't sure who was there after their big names, but I wanted to say that I consider them at worst equal to Montreal, and maybe better due to quality.

And no, Habs wingers are nothing special. But some people claimed the Habs had "excellent" winger depth 2 years ago, then when Gallagher or Drouin fell, we had to play Paul Byron in the top 6. If that's not some incredible winger depth, idk what it is.

Last year with the additions of Anderson (middle 6) and Toffoli (top 6), and this summer adding Caufield (top 6, hopefully), I think we've made progress towards having a competitive winger depth. I personally consider the Tatar vs Hoffman a wash, although maybe a better fit.

What's killing this team is the defense and lack of superstar forward. When I say superstar it's not a McDavid, just one or two legit first liner - 70pts/80pts guy. Center depth is also not that great, but it's young so hopefully fixes itself soon.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Habs fans are the same every summer. Their team is perfect until reality slaps them in the face. Add their recent Cinderella run and they will be Cup contenders until they look like they might miss, then Bergevin becomes an idiot again. Rinse and repeat. Best summer fans ever.

17 years

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

In no particular order:

Better than Montreal:

• Boston
• Hurricanes
• Florida
• Rangers
• Flyers
• Tampa
• Vegas
• Washington

I'm on the fence:

• Columbus
• Colorado
• Dallas
• Islanders
• Seattle
• Blues
• Vancouver

And I'm not sure who the wingers are on the Jets after Ehlers, Connor, Wheeler, but that would take some garbage down the lineup for their winger group to not be at least equivalent to Montreal's.

That means there are 8 teams clearly better than Montreal on the wings, and 7 that I'm not sure. Colorado for example has the obvious star power advantage (Rantanen - Landeskog), but I prefer Montreal's "bottom 6" wingers.

I selected top 12, as I'm really hopeful Caufield and Hoffman can make it a team that has a scoring option on each line.

Penguins?

Why do the Pens continually get overlooked whenever any sort of "top winger groups" or "top forward groups" polls come up? They're consistently among the highest scoring teams in the league (finished 2nd overall last year) and no, it's not only because of Crosby and Malkin.

 

[abo9]

Penguins?

Why do the Pens continually get overlooked whenever any sort of "top winger groups" or "top forward groups" polls come up? They're consistently among the highest scoring teams in the league (finished 2nd overall last year) and no, it's not only because of Crosby and Malkin.

Well I'm sure you'll disagree but imo

Guentzel > Toffoli
Rust <= Gallagher
Zucker ~= Drouin
Kapanen < Hoffman
McGinn < Anderson
Heinen <= Caufield (I'm being careful with Caufield's value)

And I won't pretend that I know the Pens 4th line wingers, but can I assume it's probably a wash with Lehkonen/Armia?

Is the difference between Guentzel and Toffoli worth the differences between both Hoffman and Kapanen, Anderson and McGinn?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Well I'm sure you'll disagree but imo

Guentzel > Toffoli
Rust <= Gallagher
Zucker ~= Drouin
Kapanen < Hoffman
McGinn < Anderson
Heinen <= Caufield (I'm being careful with Caufield's value)

And I won't pretend that I know the Pens 4th line wingers, but can I assume it's probably a wash with Lehkonen/Armia?

Is the difference between Guentzel and Toffoli worth the differences between both Hoffman and Kapanen, Anderson and McGinn?

At this point, is Rust really not on par with Gallagher? Rust's production the past two years since he was given a top six role is 98 points in 111 games for a 72 points per 82 games pace. He's responsible defensively and can effectively PK, so it's not like he's just an offensive winger that provides nothing else.

As for Hoffman/Kapanen, Hoffman's a better pure goal scorer, but Kapanen brings more of an all-around game. Better defensively, more physical, and can be used on the PK. And Kapanen paced for 60 points this past year, so it's not like the offensive gap is massive.

So at the very least, the Pens' top 6 wingers (top 4 wingers on the list) are superior to the Habs' top six. So even if the Habs have slightly better bottom six wingers, I don't think that makes up for an inferior top six.

 

[wetcoast]

Deep, but lacks stars. 11-15 range.

That was my guess but really I didn't do a deep dive here.

 

[The90]

I think the definition of depth here is important, the Habs 3rd line winger next year are likely Drouin and Anderson. So 25 goal power forward and a 45-50 point play maker.

The 4th line will likely be Perrault and Armia.

So we have 2nd line wingers on the 3rd line and 3rd line wingers on the 4th. To me that says the Winger group is very deep.

But the other argument is the only high end wingers we have are Toffoli and maybe caufield depending on how good he is over a full year.

So depending on your definition of depth I think you either have to say near the top or near the middle.

Lol. Toffoli and caufield are not high end wingers.

caufield, maybe someday, but not today. Toffoli, no. Just, no.

 

[Captain97]

Lol. Toffoli and caufield are not high end wingers.

caufield, maybe someday, but not today. Toffoli, no. Just, no.

He was 7th in goals last year while playing on our PK, to me that's pretty high-end I also listed Caufield as maybe.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

At this point, is Rust really not on par with Gallagher? Rust's production the past two years since he was given a top six role is 98 points in 111 games for a 72 points per 82 games pace. He's responsible defensively and can effectively PK, so it's not like he's just an offensive winger that provides nothing else.

As for Hoffman/Kapanen, Hoffman's a better pure goal scorer, but Kapanen brings more of an all-around game. Better defensively, more physical, and can be used on the PK. And Kapanen paced for 60 points this past year, so it's not like the offensive gap is massive.

So at the very least, the Pens' top 6 wingers (top 4 wingers on the list) are superior to the Habs' top six. So even if the Habs have slightly better bottom six wingers, I don't think that makes up for an inferior top six.

Rust is better than any of the wingers the Habs have. Gallagher's career high is 54 points. His career PPG is 0.61. Rust's career PPG is 0.58 while his last two years are way above Gallagher's. Both are very complete. I like Gallagher's style better, but at this point, he is not equal or better than Rust.

Toffoli had a career year this season playing in a terrible division. His career high is 58 points... 6 seasons ago. His career PPG is 0.60. Guentzel's has been a PPG player for 3 years straight and his career PPG is 0.86. He is not as complete, but he is much better offensively.

I'd probably take Kapanen before a guy like Anderson (definitely ahead of Hoffman because we have better scoring options and Drouin because he is mostly broken goods at this point). I would not argue against someone who would take him before Kappy.

Zucker is a strange case. He has been mostly shit with the Pens, yet, he has produced at a 0.57 PPG level. That's close to Toffoli/Gallagher/Rust career range. Would I take him before Hoffman? If we get last year's Zucker? Nope. Would I take him before Drouin? Probably.

They DO have more depth than we do though. Our 3rd and 4th line wingers do not compare.

 

[The90]

He was 7th in goals last year while playing on our PK, to me that's pretty high-end I also listed Caufield as maybe.

It’s possible that he continues that pace, but last year was a statistical anomaly. I’ve seen many Habs fans Point that out as well. Probably not the likeliest that it’ll be repeated. He had a great year though (Toffoli).

 

[Captain97]

It’s possible that he continues that pace, but last year was a statistical anomaly. I’ve seen many Habs fans Point that out as well. Probably not the likeliest that it’ll be repeated. He had a great year though (Toffoli).

He will almost certainly regress but by how much? If he regressed his 82 game pace but 9 goals he still puts up 35 goals while also being a very good defensively player. Imo that's still a high end winger.

 

[The90]

He will almost certainly regress but by how much? If he regressed his 82 game pace but 9 goals he still puts up 35 goals while also being a very good defensively player. Imo that's still a high end winger.

To each their own I guess.

He’s never hit 60 points, and only hit 30 goals once, you think it’s reasonable to now expect 35?

Again, nice player, but not high end IMO.

 

[Captain97]

To each their own I guess.

He’s never hit 60 points, and only hit 30 goals once, you think it’s reasonable to now expect 35?

Again, nice player, but not high end IMO.

The thing about his goal totals,

He scored a lot on the kings aka one of if not the lowest scoring team every year. They play a super defensive and structured game. Since leaving the kings he has played 91 games regular season and playoffs in that time he's scored 41 goals. That isn't exactly a small sample size.

I'm not expecting him to maintain the 44 goal pace he had this year, but I also don't think he is going to regress to the same totals he put up on the mostly Darryl Sutter LA Kings teams either.

I think he'll be somewhere in the middle 30-35 goal range is likely a fair guess.

 

[The90]

The thing about his goal totals,

He scored a lot on the kings aka one of if not the lowest scoring team every year. They play a super defensive and structured game. Since leaving the kings he has played 91 games regular season and playoffs in that time he's scored 41 goals. That isn't exactly a small sample size.

I'm not expecting him to maintain the 44 goal pace he had this year, but I also don't think he is going to regress to the same totals he put up on the mostly Darryl Sutter LA Kings teams either.

I think he'll be somewhere in the middle 30-35 goal range is likely a fair guess.

I mean maybe. But that’s still not high end. Unless it’s accompanied by ~40 assists minimum. Gallagher is a nice player too and I’d take him on my team any day of the week, even in his 30 goal years he’s a poor man’s high end.

 

[Voight]

Average.