Habs Off-season discussion Part 3 (All your ****** proposals go here)

[Monctonscout]

According to Jean-François Plante of LeDroit, Pascal Vincent could be replacing Gallant. Eeeeesh.

I wonder if they spoke to Boucher and if he would be interested...maybe they'd have to offer him the next HC gig...

I'm on the fence on Vincent, he had some good and bad moments in the QMJHL, pro game can be a different beast.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

That's solid value for what gionta brings.

Anyone you can find who brings what gionta brings would be more expensive. Where is this young 3rd liner who can put up 40 points while playing a shutdown role?

Imagine how much actual scoring Gionta would do if his PP ice time was cut to zero, and his 5v5 ice time was reduced considerably. He got less than 20 goals and around 40ish points getting mad ice time last season. Him being one year older, with no bicep muscles left, and less ice time ? The fallacy is to think Gionta is an actual legit 40 pts player. His production is almost entirely a result of ice time which he shouldn't have gotten.

Put Bournival in Gionta's role with his ice time and he'd get 40 pts too. At 600K instead of 3.5M.

Now, maybe his leadership is actually the ****, and they can't do without.. I'm not qualified to judge but I've never really believed in off ice leaders who can't bring it on the ice. And MT will always be tempted to put his captain in a on-ice position to not look like he's completely done. Understandably so.

 

[Monctonscout]

Imagine how much actual scoring Gionta would do if his PP ice time was cut to zero, and his 5v5 ice time was reduced considerably. He got less than 20 goals and around 40ish points getting mad ice time last season. Him being one year older, with no bicep muscles left, and less ice time ? The fallacy is to think Gionta is an actual legit 40 pts player. His production is almost entirely a result of ice time which he shouldn't have gotten.

Put Bournival in Gionta's role with his ice time and he'd get 40 pts too. At 600K instead of 3.5M.

Now, maybe his leadership is actually the ****, and they can't do without.. I'm not qualified to judge but I've never really believed in off ice leaders who can't bring it on the ice. And MT will always be tempted to put his captain in a on-ice position to not look like he's completely done.

That's BS.

Gionta got 33 of his 40 points 5 on 5.

By comparison Gallagher got 32, Galchneyuk 21, Plerkanec 33, Pacioretty 43, Desharnais 37 Subban 30.

He got 13 of his 18 goals AFTER January 1st, so obviously his surgery impacted his early goal totals. 12 of the 13 were 5 on 5.

12 ES goals the last 41 games shows he has something left in the tank. Plus when he was put with Eller and Bourque, both got going. I'm sure his leadership and work ethic was a factor there.

 

[Halifaxhab*]

That's BS.

Gionta got 33 of his 40 points 5 on 5.

By comparison Gallagher got 32, Galchneyuk 21, Plerkanec 33, Pacioretty 43, Desharnais 37 Subban 30.

He got 13 of his 18 goals AFTER January 1st, so obviously his surgery impacted his early goal totals. 12 of the 13 were 5 on 5.

12 ES goals the last 41 games shows he has something left in the tank. Plus when he was put with Eller and Bourque, both got going. I'm sure his leadership and work ethic was a factor there.

I like Gio, and I do not think Bournival could replace him on the 3rd line.

But

if the number is 3.5M for 2 seasons.....I'd rather sign Michalek for that.

I just don't think Gio has enough left in the tank to justify a 2yr deal at that cap hit. One yr? ok, but not anything longer.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Emelin really looked bad against the speedy Rangers but I remember him to be pretty effective against Boston round 2. anyone who make Lucic lose his mind like that is a keeper imo...

Getting rid of Emelin would be a gigantic mistake. That player is criminally underrated on these boards.

-He plays on his wrong side. Some guys don't mind, some do. I thought he looked a lot better on the left when he first broke into the lineup with Martin. But we lack RH dmen like most other teams. That's also a nice quality that he has to be able to play RH while being a lefty.

-He had a serious knee injury. It takes time to get back from this 100%. You can basically disregard anything you saw this season since he missed training camp + beginning of season. Players in that situation tend to have bad timing all season long and be behind other players.

-The Markov-Emelin pairing is stupid. Both are guys who aren't the fastest, and it's not ideal to keep them together. Got burned a lot. I'd like to see Emelin on the left with Subban on the right.

-Emelin got destroyed in the playoffs. Bruins ran Emelin all series long. He had a huge physical battle with Lucic and drove him completely mad. Enough so that he took exception to Emelin and threatened him for next season. But Emelin came out on top and was a big reason why we could take out the bruins. He obviously was injured after a few games against the rangers.

But in some people's mind Gorges, who was actually hitting his own goalie and causing own goals, and actually actively deflecting pucks into his own net.. and just being a complete nuisance out there against the rangers... while providing his usual zero offense, puck movement self.. well in some people's mind that Gorges is superior to Emelin.

I really hope we upgrade on Gorges. Niskanen would be amazing if we could sign him and trade Gorges. He's RH too. We could then do Emelin-Subban and Markov-Niskanen. We could take all of Gorges money and dump it on Niskanen + whatever is needed to complete. Gorges simply doesn't bring enough to be an actual solid 2nd pairing guy on a contender. He handles the puck like a grenade, isn't fast, isn't a big hitter, isn't big. Sure he blocks pucks, probably provides leadership (no one who isn't in the room knows) and is generally solid positionally and take safe decisions.. but that's not enough to be a dominant 2nd pairing guy on a real contender. He's dragging Subban down.

Having dmen playing on their proper side is important. Team Canada understood that. It's why Subban didn't play because he was the #4 RH dman. Kings are built the same way on D, with a LD/RD on each pairing.

But apparently the habs and JJD don't believe in that.

http://www.lapresse.ca/sports/hocke...er-a-gauche-pour-les-defenseurs-droitiers.php

 

[Raimu]

I like Gio, and I do not think Bournival could replace him on the 3rd line.

But

if the number is 3.5M for 2 seasons.....I'd rather sign Michalek for that.

I just don't think Gio has enough left in the tank to justify a 2yr deal at that cap hit. One yr? ok, but not anything longer.

I'd like to think the Canadiens have a similar concern, or else the deal would be done by now. 3 x 2 or 3.5 x 1 I'd be much more comfortable with

 

[Raimu]

Getting rid of Emelin would be a gigantic mistake. That player is criminally underrated on these boards.

-He plays on his wrong side. Some guys don't mind, some do. I thought he looked a lot better on the left when he first broke into the lineup with Martin. But we lack RH dmen like most other teams. That's also a nice quality that he has to be able to play RH while being a lefty.

-He had a serious knee injury. It takes time to get back from this 100%. You can basically disregard anything you saw this season since he missed training camp + beginning of season. Players in that situation tend to have bad timing all season long and be behind other players.

-The Markov-Emelin pairing is stupid. Both are guys who aren't the fastest, and it's not ideal to keep them together. Got burned a lot. I'd like to see Emelin on the left with Subban on the right.

-Emelin got destroyed in the playoffs. Bruins ran Emelin all series long. He had a huge physical battle with Lucic and drove him completely mad. Enough so that he took exception to Emelin and threatened him for next season. But Emelin came out on top and was a big reason why we could take out the bruins. He obviously was injured after a few games against the rangers.

But in some people's mind Gorges, who was actually hitting his own goalie and causing own goals, and actually actively deflecting pucks into his own net.. and just being a complete nuisance out there against hte rangers... while providing his usual zero offense, puck movement self.. well in some people's mind that Gorges is superior to Emelin.

I really hope we upgrade on Gorges. Niskanen would be amazing if we could sign him and trade Gorges. He's RH too. We could then do Emelin-Subban and Markov-Niskanen. We could take all of Gorges money and dump it on Niskanen + whatever is needed to complete. Gorges simply doesn't bring enough to be an actual solid 2nd pairing guy on a contender. He handles the puck like a grenade, isn't fast, isn't a big hitter, isn't big. Sure he blocks pucks, probably provides leadership (no one who isn't in the room knows) and is generally solid positionally and take safe decisions.. but that's not enough to be a dominant 2nd pairing guy on a real contender. He's dragging Subban down.

Having dmen playing on their proper side is important. Team Canada understood that. It's why Subban didn't play because he was the #4 RH dman. Kings are built the same way on D, with a LD/RD on each pairing.

But apparently the habs and JJD don't believe in that.

http://www.lapresse.ca/sports/hocke...er-a-gauche-pour-les-defenseurs-droitiers.php

Agreed on Emilin. The same people calling for the "de-smurfing" would willingly throw our most physical defenseman out the window.

 

[deandebean]

There's the link.

https://twitter.com/jfplante_Droit/status/481220028553904129

 

[Agnostic]

This is what happens when someone opens a part 3 without closing part 2. Paging a mod for a mop up on aisle 2

 

[Monctonscout]

I like Gio, and I do not think Bournival could replace him on the 3rd line.

But

if the number is 3.5M for 2 seasons.....I'd rather sign Michalek for that.

I just don't think Gio has enough left in the tank to justify a 2yr deal at that cap hit. One yr? ok, but not anything longer.

I agree that 2 years 7 mil is a bit rich.

If you label him a 3rd liner than 3 mil is the ceiling and 2 years is the max length. Maybe 1 year 3.5 if you are not convinced the UFA market has good value(no players that fit for a reasonable cost) and give Andrighetto, DLR, Crisp etc an extra year.

Maybe Bournival is a top 9 guy in a year, right now he's a 4th liner in my book...Weise also. Maybe one or both force their way into bigger roles, but you can't bank on that when building your roster...

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I agree that 2 years 7 mil is a bit rich.

If you label him a 3rd liner than 3 mil is the ceiling and 2 years is the max length. Maybe 1 year 3.5 if you are not convinced the UFA market has good value(no players that fit for a reasonable cost) and give Andrighetto, DLR, Crisp etc an extra year.

Maybe Bournival is a top 9 guy in a year, right now he's a 4th liner in my book...Weise also. Maybe one or both force their way into bigger roles, but you can't bank on that when building your roster...

If it were me, I'd try to move into another direction than Gionta. But it might not be realistic to think we can get a better fit seeing how he's also captain, and by all accounts a positive influence in the room.

Now, for a 1 year deal, I don't care about the amount. If we sign him for 1 year, I kind of assume that there are no other options, as long as we have enough to sign our guys and are not missing out on quality UFAs who wanted to sign here.

For 2 years, well it would be a big mistake to sign Gionta for more than one year but if we did go there, I'd not give him more than 2.5M. He's clearly a 3rd liner at this point in his career and that's good money for a third liner.

3 years I'd cry a little.

 

[axman88]

Getting rid of Emelin would be a gigantic mistake. That player is criminally underrated on these boards.

-He plays on his wrong side. Some guys don't mind, some do. I thought he looked a lot better on the left when he first broke into the lineup with Martin. But we lack RH dmen like most other teams. That's also a nice quality that he has to be able to play RH while being a lefty.

-He had a serious knee injury. It takes time to get back from this 100%. You can basically disregard anything you saw this season since he missed training camp + beginning of season. Players in that situation tend to have bad timing all season long and be behind other players.

-The Markov-Emelin pairing is stupid. Both are guys who aren't the fastest, and it's not ideal to keep them together. Got burned a lot. I'd like to see Emelin on the left with Subban on the right.

-Emelin got destroyed in the playoffs. Bruins ran Emelin all series long. He had a huge physical battle with Lucic and drove him completely mad. Enough so that he took exception to Emelin and threatened him for next season. But Emelin came out on top and was a big reason why we could take out the bruins. He obviously was injured after a few games against the rangers.

But in some people's mind Gorges, who was actually hitting his own goalie and causing own goals, and actually actively deflecting pucks into his own net.. and just being a complete nuisance out there against the rangers... while providing his usual zero offense, puck movement self.. well in some people's mind that Gorges is superior to Emelin.

I really hope we upgrade on Gorges. Niskanen would be amazing if we could sign him and trade Gorges. He's RH too. We could then do Emelin-Subban and Markov-Niskanen. We could take all of Gorges money and dump it on Niskanen + whatever is needed to complete. Gorges simply doesn't bring enough to be an actual solid 2nd pairing guy on a contender. He handles the puck like a grenade, isn't fast, isn't a big hitter, isn't big. Sure he blocks pucks, probably provides leadership (no one who isn't in the room knows) and is generally solid positionally and take safe decisions.. but that's not enough to be a dominant 2nd pairing guy on a real contender. He's dragging Subban down.

Having dmen playing on their proper side is important. Team Canada understood that. It's why Subban didn't play because he was the #4 RH dman. Kings are built the same way on D, with a LD/RD on each pairing.

But apparently the habs and JJD don't believe in that.

http://www.lapresse.ca/sports/hocke...er-a-gauche-pour-les-defenseurs-droitiers.php

I completely agree with you...wouldn't be opposed to trying to sign Niskanen and resigning Subban...and if we can't find a taker for Gorges...there's always the option of sending Briere to the minors for this year (if there are no takers for him as well) and there you have $4 mill available + extra cap space from not resigning Vanek
Defense would look like...

Subban - Emelin/Gorges
Niskanen - Markov
Beaulieu - Tinordi/Emelin/Gorges

And during the year try to find a taker for Gorges...

 

[Raimu]

There's the link.

https://twitter.com/jfplante_Droit/status/481220028553904129

Pascal Vincent coming in as a new assistant? If so that's an excellent add.

 

[raffibomb]

Agreed on Emilin. The same people calling for the "de-smurfing" would willingly throw our most physical defenseman out the window.

Completely agree.I havent been around this site that long, but to see consistently people ragging on him but being ok with Gionta coming back at all, let alone for something around 3 million makes me wonder if its worth coming here anymore.

 

[Monctonscout]

If it were me, I'd try to move into another direction than Gionta. But it might not be realistic to think we can get a better fit seeing how he's also captain, and by all accounts a positive influence in the room.

Now, for a 1 year deal, I don't care about the amount. If we sign him for 1 year, I kind of assume that there are no other options, as long as we have enough to sign our guys and are not missing out on quality UFAs who wanted to sign here.

For 2 years, well it would be a big mistake to sign Gionta for more than one year but if we did go there, I'd not give him more than 2.5M. He's clearly a 3rd liner at this point in his career and that's good money for a third liner.

3 years I'd cry a little.

Maybe the best plan is to wait later this week, kick tires on other UFA's and then make a call on Gionta with a more informed decision...

If you can replace him with Kulemin and can get it done 4 years at 11 mil, then you do it, I find him a very underrated player. Obviously if Kulemin only wants to play top 6 and costs more in the 3.5-4 mil AAV over 4-6 years then maybe you're better off with Gio at 1 year 3.5 or 2 years 5.5-6 mil.

Term in the UFA market is just as important as cap hit. If you gamble on a player but it's only 1-2 years then the risk is much lower. If you sign a guy 6 years and he is a poor fit, it's much harder to move on or move the player if he flops.

 

[Monctonscout]

jf plante ‏@jfplante_Droit · 14h
View translation
Une bonne source m'avance que Pascal Vincent a une longueur d'avance pour remplacer Gérard Gallant comme adjoint avec le #canadien. #ledroit

 

[Quagmier]

I completely agree with you...wouldn't be opposed to trying to sign Niskanen and resigning Subban...and if we can't find a taker for Gorges...there's always the option of sending Briere to the minors for this year (if there are no takers for him as well) and there you have $4 mill available + extra cap space from not resigning Vanek
Defense would look like...

Subban - Emelin/Gorges
Niskanen - Markov
Beaulieu - Tinordi/Emelin/Gorges

And during the year try to find a taker for Gorges...

As a 35+ contract, Briere's cap hit would count no matter where he is. Only option is buyout or trade (to Buffalo would make so much sense!)

 

[Agnostic]

I completely agree with you...wouldn't be opposed to trying to sign Niskanen and resigning Subban...and if we can't find a taker for Gorges...there's always the option of sending Briere to the minors for this year (if there are no takers for him as well) and there you have $4 mill available + extra cap space from not resigning Vanek
Defense would look like...

Subban - Emelin/Gorges
Niskanen - Markov
Beaulieu - Tinordi/Emelin/Gorges

And during the year try to find a taker for Gorges...

Briere has NMC plus the cap relief would only be $925K, not $4M

 

[le_sean]

I think having one of the best 1-2 D in the league makes the drop off to our 3-4 look worse than it really is

I'd consider moving Gorges or Emelin for a Top 6 W if we were able to sign a good RHD (Fayne or Bellemore) through UFA otherwise we don't have anyone that can take their minutes next season

The issue isn't Gorges and Emelin, the issue is playing guys like Murray and Bouillon over Beaulieu and Tinordi. A full year of Weaver (hopefully) should help too.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

jf plante ‏@jfplante_Droit · 14h
View translation
Une bonne source m'avance que Pascal Vincent a une longueur d'avance pour remplacer Gérard Gallant comme adjoint avec le #canadien. #ledroit

Whitesnake would approve the move

 

[vokiel]

jf plante ‏@jfplante_Droit · 14h
View translation
Une bonne source m'avance que Pascal Vincent a une longueur d'avance pour remplacer Gérard Gallant comme adjoint avec le #canadien. #ledroit

I hope the source in question is MT himself, otherwise this is pretty much worth nothing. I mean the head coach hires his own assistants usually yes? It's not like the process should go through the entire staff.

 

[sharks9]

The issue isn't Gorges and Emelin, the issue is playing guys like Murray and Bouillon over Beaulieu and Tinordi. A full year of Weaver (hopefully) should help too.

Exactly. Our D will look a lot better with a bottom pairing that's actually good and hopefully over the season they'll be able to take more minutes from Markov-Emelin.

 

[Barriwhite]

jf plante ‏@jfplante_Droit · 14h
View translation
Une bonne source m'avance que Pascal Vincent a une longueur d'avance pour remplacer Gérard Gallant comme adjoint avec le #canadien. #ledroit

Lateral moves don't happen often. Leaving the AC gig in Winnipeg for Montreal's might hurt his reputation in the future.

 

[Dominator13]

Man there's so many possibilities next season with our line-up.

The D. Hopefullx next season 1 or 2 prospect makes the team as a full-tune regular.

Emelin-Subban
Markov-Pateryn
Beaulieu-Gorges
Tinordi
Nygren

This is how my defense would look like. No UFA signings, build a young stable D core.

The forwards. For me this is THE off-season where we can add size and become a team ALA L.A Kings. Obviously in my proposed line-up, trades would have to be made, but this is how it would look.

Pacioretty-Desharnais-Gallagher
Galchenyuk-Plekanec-Stewart
Prust-Eller-Weise
Nolan-Bournival-Thorburn.

No more push-overs. That team can skate, hit and protect itself NO PROBLEM.
[!!]

 

[Milhouse40]

If i dream a little, i would move things around...even if we got to the ECF. I go after stastny and start with that blueprint:

Pacioretty - Stastny (6.6) - Gallagher
Galchenyuk - Eller (3.25) - Gionta (3.5)
Bournival - Briere - Bourque
Prust - White - Weise

Markov - Subban(8.0)
Beaulieu - Emelin
Gorges - Weaver(1.3)
Pateryn - Tinordi

Price
Tokarski

Then we add the returns from Plekanec + Desharnais + Moen + Budaj
Even if they would brings only picks....Habs would still have 7 to 8 millions to play in the UFA but i would expect a solid winger for Plek+ and a good 3rd line center for DD +. And still could use some picks inluding 1st round and mid prospect like Nygren, Thomas, Andrighetto to close some trades.