Euro: Group E: Sweden vs. Slovakia, 6/18/2021

[Eye of Ra]

That's nice for him, I'm good with Flick as long as he doesn't share Jogi's obsession with keeping Kroos in the lineup 5 years too long.

If Kroos was good enough to play on those CL winning Madrid teams and still are, he should be good enough for Germany. How old is he, 30? Not much of an age.

Gnabry
Müller - Havertz
Gosens - Gundogan - Kroos - Baku
Kimmich - Hummels - Ginter

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I like how on account of this being a hockey forum the threads involving Finland and Sweden get the most heated when on your average football forum the Finns and Swedes typically are pretty docile and more likely to be riled up about their Premier League teams than anything else.

 

[Eye of Ra]

I like how on account of this being a hockey forum the threads involving Finland and Sweden get the most heated when on your average football forum the Finns and Swedes typically are pretty mundane and more likely to be riled up about their Premier League teams than anything else.

LOL

swedish league have lots of fans and great supporter culture. PL fans here in Sweden are a minority, mostly old people.

 

[cgf]

Making the semis in 2012 and 2016 is still about on par with what you could expect from those squads. Results wise he absolutely didn’t underperform. You played nice football in 2012 and lost against Italy in a game where you played well. The 2016 semis against France are partly on Löw for sure.

Jogi started Toni Kroos at RW against Italy in 2012, your argument is invalid.

He was fine until that match, but that Italy game was an absolute coaching disaster. He did everything he could have to make sure we neutralized our own strengths while failing to counter Italy's and play right into their game-plan.


If Pep never came to Bavaria to teach the world cup winners how to play in possession, Jogi would've probably been fired ages ago.

 

[Albatros]

Nonsense. Löw did quite well in 2008, 2010, 2012 and 2016 as well.

If he was in charge of Sweden, even Böörti Vogts took them to two finals winning once.

 

[AB13]

Jogi started Toni Kroos at RW against Italy in 2012, your argument is invalid.

He was fine until that match, but that Italy game was an absolute coaching disaster. He did everything he could have to make sure we neutralized our own strengths while failing to counter Italy's and play right into their game-plan.


If Pep never came to Bavaria to teach the world cup winners how to play in possession, Jogi would've probably been fired ages ago.

Boateng, Lahm, Muller and Schweinsteiger were the only starters that played under Pep right? And for one season. A small part of the core playing one season under Pep doesn't drastically change the entire team. You were great in possession in 2012 as well (from my memory).

 

[cgf]

If Kroos was good enough to play on those CL winning Madrid teams and still are, he should be good enough for Germany. How old is he, 30? Not much of an age.

Gnabry
Müller - Havertz
Gosens - Gundogan - Kroos - Baku
Kimmich - Hummels - Ginter

If we had Varane in the middle of our defense, then we wouldn't need to care about Toni starting.

But with our personnel, we:
a) don't need Toni's class on the ball that badly...as Kimmich, Gundogan, Goretzka & Neuhaus are all excellent with the ball in deeper areas and we aren't compensating for some whose skill is as limited as Casemiro's;
b) we don't have the defenders to make up for one of our 6/8s being a non-factor against the ball. Especially not when we're only playing with two of them in front of the defense and;
c) we already have to compensate for Hummels' legs. Having to make up for two guys in deeper areas who could lose a footrace to any random poster in this thread, is just suicide when you see the ball as much as we do.

I love Toni and he was under-rated on this forum for a long time, but he was always more Pirlo than Schweini, and those limitations against the ball have only gotten worse with age. We're just better without Kroos in the lineup anymore:

Müller - Gnabry
......................Gosens - Gundogan - Goretzka - Kimmich/Hofmann
Kimmich/Neuhaus
Rüdiger - Hummels - Ginter
Neuer

Gnabry
Müller - Havertz
..................................................Gosens - Gundogan - Kimmich/Goretzka* - Kimmich/Hofmann
Rüdiger - Hummels - Ginter
Neuer

*Neuhaus​

 

[cgf]

Boateng, Lahm, Muller and Schweinsteiger were the only starters that played under Pep right? And for one season. A small part of the core playing one season under Pep doesn't drastically change the entire team. You were great in possession in 2012 as well (from my memory).

I was oversimplifying things to be a smartass, but there's a lot more truth to that notion than you are suggesting.


The Bayern contingent that year was Neuer, Boateng, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Kroos, Müller, & Götze. So we're talking about 6 starters & the top attacking option from the bench.

And you seem to be forgetting just how transformational of an effect Pep had on those players' ability to break down a deep block without space in behind...Lahm, Kroos, Müller & Schweini all became much more mature in possession, and in the case of Boateng, Pep took a stagnated disappointment (comparable to a modern Tah) & turned him into a top 10 CB.

But that's only counting the players that Pep worked with directly, and not the guys who were taught his ideas by German coaches who had learned them from Pep's Bayern.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I think Löw is remarkably flexible for a national team manager in terms of fundamental approach. We've gone through some very different basic shapes and approaches in his tenure. He's far more stubborn about players and player constellations than he is about tactics. But he is really not that great at tactical adjustments on the fly during matches, and he allows personal preferences for some players to limit his tactical choices.

 

[AB13]

I was oversimplifying things to be a smartass, but there's a lot more truth to that notion than you are suggesting.


The Bayern contingent that year was Neuer, Boateng, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Kroos, Müller, & Götze. So we're talking about 6 starters & the top attacking option from the bench.

And you seem to be forgetting just how transformational of an effect Pep had on those players' ability to break down a deep block without space in behind...Lahm, Kroos, Müller & Schweini all became much more mature in possession, and in the case of Boateng, Pep took a stagnated disappointment (comparable to a modern Tah) & turned him into a top 10 CB.

But that's only counting the players that Pep worked with directly, and not the guys who were taught his ideas by German coaches who had learned them from Pep's Bayern.

I don't really remember how those players changed from year to year in the early 2010s obviously but I have a hard time thinking that Pep drastically changed how they play in possession in one year. Maybe he did, but Löw still had to implement his own style of play in 2014.

 

[cgf]

I don't really remember how those players changed from year to year in the early 2010s obviously but I have a hard time thinking that Pep drastically changed how they play in possession in one year. Maybe he did, but Löw still had to implement his own style of play in 2014.

He really did and the style Jogi implemented was the one Bayern played that season. He was shadowing what Pep was doing with them at the club level.

I was a Pep doubter before he came to bavaria, but that changed in no time because of the impact he had on german football & coaching.

 

[member 305909]

Sweden is so... Sweden. They are rarely impressive but it is the result which counts and that is often good for Sweden.

It has been said that nowadays Finland is better at hockey than Sweden. Maybe maybe not. However, Finland will never overtake Sweden at football.

Sweden is a fairly regular qualifier to the WC and euros and often gets to the knockout-stage like this time when as for Finland having qualified for this tournament is very likely going to be a once in a lifetime experience.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Sweden is so... Sweden. They are rarely impressive but it is the result which counts and that is often good for Sweden.

It has been said that nowadays Finland is better at hockey than Sweden. Maybe maybe not. However, Finland will never overtake Sweden at football.

Sweden is a fairly regular qualifier to the WC and euros and often gets to the knockout-stage like this time when as for Finland having qualified for this tournament is very likely going to be a once in a lifetime experience.

it should be said that euros have more teams than ever so its more eazy to qualify. when it was fewer teams and way harder to qualify, sweden still did it.

 

[gary69]

it should be said that euros have more teams than ever so its more eazy to qualify. when it was fewer teams and way harder to qualify, sweden still did it.

Nah, they only qualified for the first time when they were hosts.

But Sweden does have more impressive history qualifying for the World cups.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Nah, they only qualified for the first time when they were hosts.

But Sweden does have more impressive history qualifying for the World cups.

sweden made euro 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012, 2016 and 2020

we have not miss a single euro tournament in 21 years

 

[gary69]

Yes, after it was extended and it was easier to qualify.

You still don't get that many teams from Europe at the WC, so it's more impressive to qualify for WC (after the Euros were expanded from 8 teams).

 

[Eye of Ra]

Yes, after it was extended and it was easier to qualify.

You still don't get that many teams from Europe at the WC, so it's more impressive to qualify for WC (after the Euros were expanded from 8 teams).

yes but last 2 euros its expanded even more, it was harder to qualify to euros 2000-2012 and even harder before that.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Olsen
Lustig - VNL - Helander/Jansson - Augustinsson
Kulusevski - Larsson - Ekdal - Forsberg
Isak - Quaison

I think i just nailed it. Larsson would fit perfect as cleaner beside Ekdal. Olsson have not impressed me.

Danielsson is horrible with his feet, Jansson/Helander is just simple better than him.

Berg playing over Quaison is a massive joke. Quaison works as hard as Berg but is much more dangerous and better passer.

 

[Antiillafire]

Has a coach ever been fired mid tourney? Tarkovic

 

[Eye of Ra]

btw world cup is just 1 year away, i never been so pumped up for our national team.

Zlatan - Isak
Forsberg - Svanberg - Cajuste - Kulusevski
Augustisson - Lindelöf - Helander/Jansson - Krafth
Olsen

Thats a good team. Could do some damage in WC 2022. Yes i think Zlatan will be there. He just came back to the NT and missed euros with a injury, he is gonna be super hungry for a WC. Isak, Kulu, Svanberg and Cajuste 1 year older.

 

[cgf]

btw world cup is just 1 year away, i never been so pumped up for our national team.

Zlatan - Isak
Forsberg - Svanberg - Cajuste - Kulusevski
Augustisson - Lindelöf - Helander/Jansson - Krafth
Olsen

Thats a good team. Could do some damage in WC 2022. Yes i think Zlatan will be there. He just came back to the NT and missed euros with a injury, he is gonna be super hungry for a WC. Isak, Kulu, Svanberg and Cajuste 1 year older.

A 4-4-2 with actual strikers is just too limiting nowadays. Only having 4 players in that CB/CM area is going to leave you outmanned in that part of the pitch against pretty much everyone...and that doesn't just make it harder to build up through that area, it makes it harder to defend without dropping everyone into a deep block.

Especially with how flexible Forsberg has become...thriving for Leipzig as both a false-9 as well as as a playmaker from deeper & more central areas.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

A 4-4-2 with actual strikers is just too limiting nowadays. Only having 4 players in that CB/CM area is going to leave you outmanned in that part of the pitch against pretty much everyone...and that doesn't just make it harder to build up through that area, it makes it harder to defend without dropping everyone into a deep block.

Especially with how flexible Forsberg has become...thriving for Leipzig as both a false-9 as well as as a playmaker from deeper & more central areas.

Don't see the system changing unless they get a new manager, and there's no real reason for that to happen yet.

 

[cgf]

Don't see the system changing unless they get a new manager, and there's no real reason for that to happen yet.

that's a shame. I feel like a 4-3-3 with Isak & Kulusevski playing off of Zlatan and Forsberg behind them in a hybrid 8/10 spot, would make a lot more sense given their improving talent & give them a better structure to create without exposing the defense.

Maybe a 3-4-3 when Zlatan retires with Kulusevski, Isak & Forsberg in a fluid front 3 with heavy rotation.