Gritty 3rd liners vs soft Top6ers

[TopCheese]

need a mix of both

 

[txpd]

the question that doesn't get answered is what is gritty 3rd liners and who are soft top 6rs? Are we talking about Marcus Johansson vs Tom Wilson? Marcus Johansson vs. Justin Williams? Tom Wilson vs Nicklas Backstrom?

And you cant play this game without addressing the defense. Are we talking about puck moving top 4 defensemen vs gritty 3rd pair d?

I will take soft top 6 forwards against gritty 3rd pair d all day and night.

 

[siddy]

How is this even a question? The World Cup game between US and Canada pretty clearly shows that skill trumps grit.

 

[coupe93]

How is this even a question? The World Cup game between US and Canada pretty clearly shows that skill trumps grit.

Not so fast. So, Perry, Getzlaf, Marchand, Thornton, Toews, Crosby etc... are soft now?

 

[siddy]

Not so fast. So, Perry, Getzlaf, Marchand, Thornton, Toews, Crosby etc... are soft now?

Canada did not 'out grit' the USA. Canada took more skillful players, and clearly won. I don't seem to recall Canada outhitting and scoring dirty goals. They played a dominating possession game that the US could not handle.

Want another example of skill > grit? Chicago.

 

[Eisen]

Not so fast. So, Perry, Getzlaf, Marchand, Thornton, Toews, Crosby etc... are soft now?

They are not soft but neither are they playing gritty.

 

[542365]

Skill will beat grit almost every time. "Grit", "toughness", "sandpaper" are just euphemisms for players who aren't good hockey players. "Grit" loses far more games than it wins. "Grit" takes penalties, "grit" botches odd-man rushes, "grit" puts his team in a bad position. I would take a team full of Phil Kessels over a team of "gritty" players any day of the week.

 

[KingsHockey24]

I'm guessing the gritty 3rd liners team would look something like this?

AbdelKader - Hanzal - Brouwer
Chimera - Couturier - Callahan
Roussel - Eakin - Shaw
Brown - Komarov - Comeau

*Helm, Wilson, Weise

 

[coupe93]

Imagine there are two teams. One is full of tough and gritty 3rd liners and the other is full of soft and delicate top6ers. Defense and goaltending is the same. Which of these two teams would win?

In bold is the important portion of the OP's question.

Canada did not 'out grit' the USA. Canada took more skillful players, and clearly won. I don't seem to recall Canada outhitting and scoring dirty goals. They played a dominating possession game that the US could not handle.

This is not my idea of "soft and delicate top 6ers". There was no way on earth the U.S. with their so called gritty line-up was going to intimidate that line-up at all. Bad example is all I'm saying.

Red Army vs Philadelphia in the 1976 (ie the Broad Street Bullies) would probably be as close of an example. That game ended 4-1 in favour of a Philadelphia team that was clearly outmatched in the skill department, but intimidated their vastly more skilled opponents. I hate picking on Kessel, he's clearly a wonderfully skilled player given the right situation (which Pittsburgh is) but he's an example of an extremely skilled player that doesn't enjoy going into the dirty areas. Put 6 of that type against 6 of say Lucic/Backes type players, and the skilled camp may have a problem.

 

[AINEC*]

Goals are something only the casual hockey fan thinks of when they think success. Goals don't actually matter, when will you people realize that? Sure you need them to win hockey games, and skilled players usually score more goals than 3rd-line trashcans. But do you really want to win hockey games, or do you want to DOMINATE ON THE BOARDS AND GET THAT PUCK DEEP?

Figure it out.

 

[Sweetpotato]

Hoffman-Seguin-Kane
JVR-RNH-Eberle
Boedker-Spezza-Kessel
Hudler-Ribeiro-Ryan

VS

Foligno-Dubinsky-Callahan
Hagelin-Fisher-Clutterbuck
Komarov-Helm-Abdelkader
Chimera-Shaw-Wilson

this puts it in perspective. Scoring depth, skill, speed, all these make it an absolute blood bath. It also helps the skill teams top 3 centers are good 2 way players.

 

[Bank Shot]

It really depends on the calibre of the soft top sixers.

If its a bunch of guys like Ryder, Hudler, Granlund, and Purcell then give me the 3rd line grinders.


If the soft team gets to have a bunch of first line star players then they will win in a walk.

 

[siddy]

In bold is the important portion of the OP's question.

Canada did not 'out grit' the USA. Canada took more skillful players, and clearly won. I don't seem to recall Canada outhitting and scoring dirty goals. They played a dominating possession game that the US could not handle.

This is not my idea of "soft and delicate top 6ers". There was no way on earth the U.S. with their so called gritty line-up was going to intimidate that line-up at all. Bad example is all I'm saying.

Red Army vs Philadelphia in the 1976 (ie the Broad Street Bullies) would probably be as close of an example. That game ended 4-1 in favour of a Philadelphia team that was clearly outmatched in the skill department, but intimidated their vastly more skilled opponents. I hate picking on Kessel, he's clearly a wonderfully skilled player given the right situation (which Pittsburgh is) but he's an example of an extremely skilled player that doesn't enjoy going into the dirty areas. Put 6 of that type against 6 of say Lucic/Backes type players, and the skilled camp may have a problem.

Canada may have had some 'grit' on their team, but they did not play a gritty style, grinding game. They played an up-tempo, dominating skill game.

It's funny how you call me out by saying that Team Canada was not 'soft and delicate' but somehow Lucic and Backes are 3rd line forwards?

I think if we really want to take it to the logical extremes, give me a team of 6 Kessels at forward vs a team of 6 Komorov's (1st line soft talent, vs 3rd line grinder) and Kessel's team would win by a landslide.

Also I think if you have to go back to 1976 to prove your point, maybe it's not such a strong point.

 

[Toggel]

This is basically NA/Canada vs USA. USA didn't stand a chance because they didn't have the skill.

 

[Rorschach]

Since forwards go against defensemen usually, you can't really vs. this.

If I had good puck mover defensemen and passers, that would compliment my grinders well.

 

[Keepin It Real*]

Ask therrien, he'd have a team full of 4th line diminutive checking centres.

 

[deathtouchtrample]

this thread is everything wrong with hockey fandom.

 

[gwh]

Neither.

Top GF% against good opposition. Don't care if you are soft or hard or medium rare.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Canada may have had some 'grit' on their team, but they did not play a gritty style, grinding game. They played an up-tempo, dominating skill game.

It's funny how you call me out by saying that Team Canada was not 'soft and delicate' but somehow Lucic and Backes are 3rd line forwards?

I think if we really want to take it to the logical extremes, give me a team of 6 Kessels at forward vs a team of 6 Komorov's (1st line soft talent, vs 3rd line grinder) and Kessel's team would win by a landslide.

Also I think if you have to go back to 1976 to prove your point, maybe it's not such a strong point.

I think the only think the kamarovs got going for them is that they will win more faceoffs

 

[nvan97]

This isn't Canada v. US IMO. Canada wasn't what you would call "soft". It is however the reason the US was no good. Picked too many players based on "grit" and "toughness" while clearly leaving more skilled guys at home. You ALWAYS want the most skilled team possible. If a player is both then that's great but skill is more important.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

So...
Smith-Pageau-Shaw
Bailey-Eller-Weise
Kulemin-Helm-Fast
Chimera-Cizikas-Clutterbuk

Vs.

Kane-Seguin-Kessel
Gaudreau-Lehtera-Eberle
Hudler-Granlund-Purcell
Boedker-Ribero-Gaborik

That should be a run away for team skill. Though it does depend on how good the defence. If I have a defence of

Staal-Giardi
Orpik-Michalek
Tytuin-Polak

I'd be concern about the skilled team's puck possession as their forwards are never going to have the puck. Otherwise known as Oiler hockey the last several years.

 

[dream43]

Personally Skill>>Grit

I take my chances that no matter how great and gritty the 3rd liners are, That out of 12 Top 6 players at least a few will still produce and then there skill will be much greater than that of the Grit.

 

[Kranix]

Give me 20 Eric Nystroms and I'll give you a modern day dynasty. I wouldn't even have to draw up plays.

 

[member 157595]

We've reached peak HFBoards.

...Never go full HFBoards.

 

[Readytostart]

Imagine there are two teams. One is full of tough and gritty 3rd liners and the other is full of soft and delicate top6ers. Defense and goaltending is the same. Which of these two teams would win?

So, the 1996 Florida Panthers vs. mid-2000s Washington Capitals?