what?
without shesterkin the rangers might not qualify for the play-offs. your skaters aren't anything special.
Gretzky or Hasek+Ovechkin
- Thread starter toothlessgoon
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without shesterkin the rangers might not qualify for the play-offs. your skaters aren't anything special.
hasek and ovi have a comparable kind of longevity. for the sake of this discussion you can't assume hasek steps on NA soil at the age of 26 for the first time.
And Gretzky didn’t win after leaving Edmonton. And Lemieux didn’t even make the playoff for years. And peak Ovechkin didn’t win. And McDavid still hasn’t won. And Bourque never won in Boston. Every great player needs a supporting cast. I think goalies can be less important in the sense that it’s easier for an average goaltender to get hot and play elite than it is for an average skater to do the same, but at the same time, when you’re always getting that elite goaltending, especially when it’s a cut above the other elite goaltenders like with Hasek, you’re not spoiling your chances if you can find the right supporting cast. Some great teams can never get over the hump because they’re constantly undone by goaltending.
Gretzky didn't win after Edmonton because he was getting older/injured and was no longer a peak 200+ point machine. If he had been- he'd have won elsewhere. Gretzky is in a different class, but even he slowed down with age.
Lemieux reached his peak level in ~88, and he won 2 cups shortly after. With how injuries hit him, he didn't have many years at his peak.
As for Hasek - 'he almost won in Buffalo'. Ok - so did Kolzig in Washington the year after. Or Vanbiesbrook in Florida 3 years prior. Or Price last year with a weaker Habs group than Buffalo had. There's been lots of great goalie performances in the playoffs over the years - Hasek in the 99 playoffs gets overblown. Great performance - but many goalies have had similar caliber playoff runs, it doesn't stand out that much.
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
The fact that the poll results are not 100% Ovechkin+Hasek is embarrassing to be honest.
When I read this I was like "what's the point here?" but then I saw the results...
When I read this I was like "what's the point here?" but then I saw the results...
First of all, look at Georgiev's record and the record of the Islanders. The Rangers make it as a wild card team with an average starting goalie. Second, we have a Norris winner, a former Hart finalist, a top 15 enter in the league, and a 50 goal scorer on the team. This take that the Rangers were some garbage team carried by their goaltender is bullshit. Third, despite that the Rangers skaters while not the garbage you're making them out to be weren't good enough to win a cup and Shesterkin didn't help them win the cup either, which is my point exxactly.
Off the top of my head Vasi, Quick, and Tim Thomas were the the only post-lockout teams to win it and have elite goaltending. How many teams that won it didn't have a #1 center?
DanyHeatley
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WarriorofTime
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He carried really garbage Buffalo teams really far. Your premise is just inaccurate based on actual history.
I like these types of poll. Even tho I'm an Oilers fan, Gretzky shouldn't always be the answer. Going with Hasek and OV here by a slight margin
KoozNetsOff 92
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We'll never know.
Lemeiux hit his peak around 87 yet he couldn't even carry the pens to the playoffs. He won "shortly after" because the team got stacked.
You're just proving the point of how a hot goalie can carry a mediocre team far, definitely further than 1 forward can.
WarriorofTime
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That is more of a function of salary cap allocation, and not that goaltenders aren't valuable. The pre-lockout Cups were dominated by elite goaltenders - 3 for Brodeur, 4 for Roy, 1 for Hasek, 1 for Belfour. Only the Red Wings in 97 and 98 were winning Cups in that era without elite goaltending.
Greatest player ever vs best LW and best goaltender ever. I would take Ovechkin and Hasek without much debate.
A single player doesn't win a Cup. McDavid put together a modern day Gretzky like performance with 10g and 23a in 16 games, it got his team 8 wins.
Hasek alone could put a mediocre team in the Cup Final. Ovechkin after that is just gravy.
A single player doesn't win a Cup. McDavid put together a modern day Gretzky like performance with 10g and 23a in 16 games, it got his team 8 wins.
Hasek alone could put a mediocre team in the Cup Final. Ovechkin after that is just gravy.
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
WarriorofTime
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Well salary cap allocation is a proxy for player value. If you can't afford to allocate X amount for a top goalie because you have to allocate it for a top forward doesn't that mean that the forward is more valuable?
WarriorofTime
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I mean, the Lightning have won back to back Cups with the best goaltender in the League on a big contract, so it's not like goaltenders are just awful value. It just is a bit tougher.
Comparing Hasek to Lundqvist is like comparing Gretzky to I don't know, Yzerman? Just stop.
DanyHeatley
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This is a dumb argument. You can only judge them relative to their peers. Gretzky was so far above his it’s ridiculous. Nobody will ever reach that level of dominance. McDavid is the closest we have today, and his contemporaries are much closer to him than Gretzky’s were.
And if you are going to bring up the argument that the average player is better today, again, it’s all relative, and also, that argument would make sense if Gretzky dominated because of things like speed, athleticism, and strength. He didn’t. It was all mastery combined with intrinsic skill/aptitude and a brain that processed the game much faster and more complete than anyone else. Once in a lifetime player.
That being said, I take the combo of Hasek + Ovechkin over Gretzky alone.
Matty Sundin
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norrisnick
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If you can't market OV or Hasek, you probably shouldn't be owning an NHL team. Marketability is one angle that Gretzky isn't running away with here.
And Hasek got exactly as far as Lundqvist when he didn't have a stacked team in front of him.
