Gretzky or Hasek+Ovechkin

[norrisnick]

And Hasek got exactly as far as Lundqvist when he didn't have a stacked team in front of him.

Which is exactly as far as Gretzky got when he didn't have a stacked team alongside him.

 

[norrisnick]

Off the top of my head Vasi, Quick, and Tim Thomas were the the only post-lockout teams to win it and have elite goaltending. How many teams that won it didn't have a #1 center?

If you're extending the same 'elite' requirement for centers that you're using for goalies and only those 3 goalies qualify? Way more than 3 teams.

If you're literally referring to #1 centers, the same number as teams that didn't have a starting goalie.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

If you're extending the same 'elite' requirement for centers that you're using for goalies and only those 3 goalies qualify? Way more than 3 teams.

If you're literally referring to #1 centers, the same number as teams that didn't have a starting goalie.

Let's see:

06: Staal (100 point year that year)
07: Don't think anyone, Getzlaf was young
08: Datsyuk
09: Crosby/Malkin
10: Toews
11: Bergeron
12: Kopitar
13: Toews
14: Kopitar
15: Toews
16: Crosby/Malkin
17: Crosby/Malkin
18: Backstrom
19: O'Reilly
20: Stamkos/Point
21: Stamkos/Point

We didn't see a superstar center only in 2006, 2007, and 2019. Can you say the same about goalies? I left out Fleury and Holtby, both good goalies but not on the level of most of the top centers on this list.

 

[norrisnick]

Let's see:

06: Staal (100 point year that year)
07: Don't think anyone, Getzlaf was young
08: Datsyuk
09: Crosby/Malkin
10: Toews
11: Bergeron
12: Kopitar
13: Toews
14: Kopitar
15: Toews
16: Crosby/Malkin
17: Crosby/Malkin
18: Backstrom
19: O'Reilly
20: Stamkos/Point
21: Stamkos/Point

We didn't see a superstar center only in 2006, 2007, and 2019. Can you say the same about goalies? I left out Fleury and Holtby, both good goalies but not on the level of most of the top centers on this list.

If you're going to list every center that was a #1 on a winner you may as well list every goalie as well. If you've only got 3 elite goalies in that span more than half those centers don't qualify either.

 

[Grifter3511]

Give me the guy who scored 50 in 39, 92 in a season, and 200 pts multiple times.

Also, the question said 'build around,' not 'Gretzky and hot garbage' or 'ovi/hasek and hot garbage.' So long as the management is competent (which Oilers hasn't been), I'm pretty sure you could build a cup winner around either option. But Gretzky is going to draw free agents and others to his team to play with him, AND he will make those players around him better. I can't necessarily say the same for ovi and hasek.

 

[Xspyrit]

I don't want to diminish Gretzky or anything but past eras need an asterisk because they were scoring on this :

The guy above was not a NHL goalie and probably way too small but goalies of the past didn't take a lot of the net... Goalie equipment has gotten much bigger now and goalies are giants. Try to be in the NHL under 6'2, that's why Juuse Saros is so impressive. The guy is 5'11

I know not everyone will like that opinion but to me, what a guy like McDavid does today is more impressive than what Gretzky did back then, just because goalies are much bigger/better now, but also the skaters' athleticism is much much higher and the overall pool talent is insanely higher too.

 

[Victorias]

I don't want to diminish Gretzky or anything but past eras need an asterisk because they were scoring on this :

View attachment 561597

The guy above was not a NHL goalie and probably way too small but goalies of the past didn't take a lot of the net... Goalie equipment has gotten much bigger now and goalies are giants. Try to be in the NHL under 6'2, that's why Juuse Saros is so impressive. The guy is 5'11

I know not everyone will like that opinion but to me, what a guy like McDavid does today is more impressive than what Gretzky did back then, just because goalies are much bigger/better now, but also the skaters' athleticism is much much higher and the overall pool talent is insanely higher too.

Gretzky was 3rd in scoring in 1998 at 37, when there were much better goalies in the league than today (Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, etc) and the talent pool was roughly the same. He wouldn’t put up 200 points today, but would still win the Art Ross.

I’ll take Hasek and OV though. None of the three (or anyone in history) won the Cup himself. But Hasek probably came the closest in 1999, considering he played with 0 HOFers. Add OV to that team and they definitely win.

I mean look at the 1999 SCF HOFers

Stars: Ed Belfour (2011) Guy Carbonneau (2019) Brett Hull (2009) Mike Modano (2014) Joe Nieuwendyk (2011) Sergei Zubov (2019) Sabres: Dominik Hasek (2014)

That Stars team was better than the current Lightning (at least it had more HOFers) and it took them multi OT in Game 6 to win. Just needed an OV snipe for the Sabres to win…

Meanwhile, Hasek and Jagr (similar to OV) won in Nagano over Canada surrounded by mediocre players. So, clearly they could beat the best. Gretzky is obviously the greatest, but not better than two other all time greats combined.

 

[tsujimoto74]

Gretzky 100% no question asked.

Hasek's first Vezina was at age 29, and first hart at age 32.
Ovechkin at age 29 and 32 is still a terrific player (won rocket both years) - but nowhere near as good as at his peak when he was sweeping awards. So - their peaks would not coincide.

Gretzky is not only the greatest player in history - he's also the player in history who more than anyone made his teammates and linemates better. So that helps his case too.

Blaming Hasek for the fact that the Iron Curtain kept him in (then) Czechoslovakia well into his 20s. Classic. Dumb, but classic.

 

[Price is Wright]

The greatest goal scoring winger of all time with arguably the greatest goaltender of all time versus the greatest player of all time?

I'll take two A+ assets over one A+ asset.

 

[DanyHeatley]

This is a dumb argument. You can only judge them relative to their peers. Gretzky was so far above his it’s ridiculous. Nobody will ever reach that level of dominance. McDavid is the closest we have today, and his contemporaries are much closer to him than Gretzky’s were.

And if you are going to bring up the argument that the average player is better today, again, it’s all relative, and also, that argument would make sense if Gretzky dominated because of things like speed, athleticism, and strength. He didn’t. It was all mastery combined with intrinsic skill/aptitude and a brain that processed the game much faster and more complete than anyone else. Once in a lifetime player.

That being said, I take the combo of Hasek + Ovechkin over Gretzky alone.

That being said, it’s a lot harder to dominate in todays game. It’s not just the athletes that are better. There are better equipment, with advanced and innovative designs, better and smarter coaches, new styles of play, new tempo to the game. It’s a completely new and evolved game compared to when plumbers and beer leaguers roamed the league.

 

[Garbageyuk]

That being said, it’s a lot harder to dominate in todays game. It’s not just the athletes that are better. There are better equipment, with advanced and innovative designs, better and smarter coaches, new styles of play, new tempo to the game. It’s a completely new and evolved game compared to when plumbers and beer leaguers roamed the league.

There has been progress in several areas, yes. But you can’t hold that against past players. It’s not like it was easy to dominate back then either. If it was, why was Gretzky basically the only one to do so. Lemieux was close, but he came later.

If you remove Gretzky from the equation, the top scorers look pretty much the same as today in terms of competitiveness relative to each other for those high scoring years in the 80s.

Gretzky was simply on another level compared to his contemporaries.

It would take a similar level of dominance above the competition by a modern player before I’d consider them the best ever - we are talking like multiple 140-160 point seasons in a row for modern point totals. Obviously we aren’t seeing that.

Like I said, McDavid is the closest we’ve seen since Lemieux, but isn’t on that level, as impressive as he is. Draisaitl is always nipping at his heels in the scoring race, and there is always at least 1 player finishing within 10-15 points of him every season. That simply is not Gretzky/Lemieux level dominance.

Another player on that level may come along eventually, but we haven’t seen it yet.

 

[DanyHeatley]

There has been progress in several areas, yes. But you can’t hold that against past players. It’s not like it was easy to dominate back then either. If it was, why was Gretzky basically the only one to do so. Lemieux was close, but he came later.

If you remove Gretzky from the equation, the top scorers look pretty much the same as today in terms of competitiveness relative to each other for those high scoring years in the 80s.

Gretzky was simply on another level compared to his contemporaries.

It would take a similar level of dominance above the competition by a modern player before I’d consider them the best ever - we are talking like multiple 140-160 point seasons in a row for modern point totals. Obviously we aren’t seeing that.

Like I said, McDavid is the closest we’ve seen since Lemieux, but isn’t on that level, as impressive as he is. Draisaitl is always nipping at his heels in the scoring race, and there is always at least 1 player finishing within 10-15 points of him every season. That simply is not Gretzky/Lemieux level dominance.

Another player on that level may come along eventually, but we haven’t seen it yet.

And I agree with you. I’m just trying to say, Long story short, if you put Gretzky in todays hockey, he’s definitely not a 180-200 pt godmode dominant player. 100-120? Sure, high possibility. He’d have a much more difficult time dominating modern hockey than old school hockey.

Meanwhile, you put prime Ovi in the 70s80s90. He’ll easily dominate and mostly likely score close to 100 goals/150-200 pts. And it’ll be much easier for him to dominate that era of hockey compared to how he did in todays hockey.

And both are excellent players.

 

[Garbageyuk]

And I agree with you. I’m just trying to say, Long story short, if you put Gretzky in todays hockey, he’s definitely not a 180-200 pt godmode dominant player. 100-120? Sure, high possibility. He’d have a much more difficult time dominating modern hockey than old school hockey.

Meanwhile, you put prime Ovi in the 70s80s90. He’ll easily dominate and mostly likely score close to 100 goals/150-200 pts. And it’ll be much easier for him to dominate that era of hockey compared to how he did in todays hockey.

And both are excellent players.

And I’m saying the “put _____ into _____” is a dumb argument.

Ovechkin would not dominate like you say if he was “put into the 70s or 80s” because he would have grown up with the training methods and nutrition of the era and he’d be using old equipment.

You don’t think Gretzky would benefit from modern equipment/nutrition/training methods like everyone else has?

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Gretzky. One max salary player is easier to build around than two huge contracts.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Gretzky was 3rd in scoring in 1998 at 37, when there were much better goalies in the league than today (Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, etc) and the talent pool was roughly the same. He wouldn’t put up 200 points today, but would still win the Art Ross.

I’ll take Hasek and OV though. None of the three (or anyone in history) won the Cup himself. But Hasek probably came the closest in 1999, considering he played with 0 HOFers. Add OV to that team and they definitely win.

I mean look at the 1999 SCF HOFers

Stars: Ed Belfour (2011) Guy Carbonneau (2019) Brett Hull (2009) Mike Modano (2014) Joe Nieuwendyk (2011) Sergei Zubov (2019) Sabres: Dominik Hasek (2014)

That Stars team was better than the current Lightning (at least it had more HOFers) and it took them multi OT in Game 6 to win. Just needed an OV snipe for the Sabres to win…

Meanwhile, Hasek and Jagr (similar to OV) won in Nagano over Canada surrounded by mediocre players. So, clearly they could beat the best. Gretzky is obviously the greatest, but not better than two other all time greats combined.

Three of those Stars players are extremely questionable HOFers. Especially Catbonneau. Like Palat will never be considered for the HOF yet is a substantially better player

 

[Nadal On Clay]

To be honest, l’ve never understood the “Gretzky over anything else” narrative that seems to be thrown around too often in here. Gretzky was put in the best possible position to succeed. He had an amazing team for his entire prime years, a great coach, great management and even his own bodyguards. He is the best player of all time, but there is no way you take him before the best goaltender of all time and the best goalscorer of all time, especially if you don’t know where he will be playing and with who.

 

[ER89]

I'll take whatever you don't want. I'm good with either really

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

The poll doesn't specify who the goalie would be with Gretzky. It could be Patrick Roy, or it could be Leafs-era Jonathan Bernier.

 

[Tonneau]

I'll take the playoffs god who makes every skater on the ice with him better.. That's Gretzky by the way.

Ovechkin is a playoffs dud (that word may be slightly too harsh) more often than not. Hasek is great, but he doesn't make up for the immense gap between Ovechkin and Gretzky.

 

[wetcoast]

Gretzky 100% no question asked.

Hasek's first Vezina was at age 29, and first hart at age 32.
Ovechkin at age 29 and 32 is still a terrific player (won rocket both years) - but nowhere near as good as at his peak when he was sweeping awards. So - their peaks would not coincide.

Gretzky is not only the greatest player in history - he's also the player in history who more than anyone made his teammates and linemates better. So that helps his case too.

I can see the case but I'd take 3 years of prime Ovi and the Hasek prime...I guess, is there a salary cap in place?

Also you make a great point in how Wayne made other guys that much better and he was simply a winner, heck he almost led a LA to a SC victory only to be held back by a superhuman playoff year by Patrick Roy with an INSANE 11-0 OT record that year in the playoffs including 3 OT wins over Gretzky and the Kings

The poll doesn't specify who the goalie would be with Gretzky. It could be Patrick Roy, or it could be Leafs-era Jonathan Bernier.

It doesn't but it does ask about which option one would want to build around so with cap space one option has Gretzky at the league max and the other team has Ovi and Hasek at league max one would assume.

 

[wetcoast]

To be honest, l’ve never understood the “Gretzky over anything else” narrative that seems to be thrown around too often in here. Gretzky was put in the best possible position to succeed. He had an amazing team for his entire prime years, a great coach, great management and even his own bodyguards. He is the best player of all time, but there is no way you take him before the best goaltender of all time and the best goalscorer of all time, especially if you don’t know where he will be playing and with who.

Gretzky was in a perfect storm situation to succeed with the Oilers in the 80s but he was driving the bus while the other guys weren't even sitting in the first 2 rows behind him on that bus.

During his time with the Oilers (9 years), he had almost 100 more playoff points than the guy in sceond place.

NHL Stats

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During the regular season in those 9 years he led the team in scoring by almost doubling the production of the second best player

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Just to add to that he also dominated international best on best tournaments during that time as well.

 

[wetcoast]

To be honest, l’ve never understood the “Gretzky over anything else” narrative that seems to be thrown around too often in here. Gretzky was put in the best possible position to succeed. He had an amazing team for his entire prime years, a great coach, great management and even his own bodyguards. He is the best player of all time, but there is no way you take him before the best goaltender of all time and the best goalscorer of all time, especially if you don’t know where he will be playing and with who.

Gretzky was in a perfect storm situation to succeed with the Oilers in the 80s but he was driving the bus while the other guys weren't even sitting in the first 2 rows behind him on that bus.

During his time with the Oilers (9 years), he had almost 100 more playoff points than the guy in sceond place.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

During the regular season in those 9 years he led the team in scoring by almost doubling the production of the second best player

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Just to add to that he also dominated international best on best tournaments during that time as well.

 

[Grifter3511]

Gretzky was 3rd in scoring in 1998 at 37, when there were much better goalies in the league than today (Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, etc) and the talent pool was roughly the same. He wouldn’t put up 200 points today, but would still win the Art Ross.

I’ll take Hasek and OV though. None of the three (or anyone in history) won the Cup himself. But Hasek probably came the closest in 1999, considering he played with 0 HOFers. Add OV to that team and they definitely win.

I mean look at the 1999 SCF HOFers

Stars: Ed Belfour (2011) Guy Carbonneau (2019) Brett Hull (2009) Mike Modano (2014) Joe Nieuwendyk (2011) Sergei Zubov (2019) Sabres: Dominik Hasek (2014)

That Stars team was better than the current Lightning (at least it had more HOFers) and it took them multi OT in Game 6 to win. Just needed an OV snipe for the Sabres to win…

Meanwhile, Hasek and Jagr (similar to OV) won in Nagano over Canada surrounded by mediocre players. So, clearly they could beat the best. Gretzky is obviously the greatest, but not better than two other all time greats combined.

If you want to talk about mediocre talent...look at that team canada roster.

 

[Xspyrit]

If you want to talk about mediocre talent...look at that team canada roster.

?????

Team Canada - Olympics - Nagano 1998 - Player Stats

Team Canada stats, scoring leaders and demographics breakdown at Olympics - Nagano 1998. Player birth country and age distributions, draft rounds of players in the 1998 Olympics.

www.quanthockey.com