Gretzky not receiving the Calder, nor the Art Ross in 1979/80...

JianYang

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I guess I always just assumed that goals would be the tie break in a situation where the league leaders were tied.

Is this not the case anymore? I mean, it's a tough way to lose out, but if you are hell bent on having only one art ross trophy winner, it does not seem like a crime to provide to the player with more goals. While there are flaws to this, there would be flaws to any tiebreak, and I can think of much worse ones to use than this.
 

JianYang

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Ok, slavery was a bit much, I agree, but the point still stands (no pun intended)! I wasn’t arguing that there shouldn’t be a tie breaker (though maybe they should have shared the award as Panther suggests). I was arguing the tie breaker shouldn’t be based on goals, which have the exact same (1 to 1) value as assists. If you use goals as a tiebreaker, you are implying that goals have more value than assists...but the problem with that is, well, they don’t. (Otherwise a goal would be worth 1.5 points or 2 points...or an assist would be worth half a point...or what have you...but it isn’t.) Your comparison with wins being used for tiebreakers in overall team standings is not the same thing, as wins are worth 2 points and ties are only worth 1 point. Again, goals and assists are worth one point each.

This is a slippery slope, because the line has to be drawn somewhere. How many phantom assists did each player receive? Are certain scorekeepers for particular games more stingy on providing assists than others?

I guess the three main arguments for using goals as the tiebreak would be the following:

1) While goals and assists are worth the same, each scoring play has the potential to provide twice as many assists as goals. Theoretically, a player can rack a boatload of secondary assists, which didn't contribute much to the goal. I'm not saying this happened with Gretzky, but I'm saying in general.

2) Goals are much less subjective. They are the black and white figure, where you automatically register a goal when the puck crosses the line. Sure, there are the rare occurrences of perhaps an early whistle which waives off an actual goal, but relative to assists, they are a much less subjective stat.

3). This is probably the biggest argument for goals. They are sexy. Which individual record is considered the most sacred, and caused the greatest following when it was on the verge of being broken?

At the end of the day, it's a business, and you have to please your stakeholders, one of which is the fans. They love their goals, and this tiebreak aligns with that reality.
 
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Voight

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Feb 8, 2012
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Rocket should be named after Gretzky. Hes got the record for most goals just would make sense.
Shouldnt there be atleast one trophy named after the greatest hockey player to ever play the game?

Pretty much all of the NHL awards have been "donated" so unless the Oilers donate an assist trophy on his behalf, good luck.

Rocket Trophy was dominated by the Habs, hence the name on it.

Personally I don't think they should change the names of the trophies and honestly wish they would have kept the Lindsay as the Pearson trophy.
 
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Arthur Morgan

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Pretty much all of the NHL awards have been "donated" so unless the Oilers donate an assist trophy on his behalf, good luck.

Rocket Trophy was dominated by the Habs, hence the name on it.

Personally I don't think they should change the names of the trophies and honestly wish they would have kept the Lindsay as the Pearson trophy.
I still think the Rocket should be named after Gretzky. name a player with more goals or a higher season goal record, enough said
 
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Cyclones Rock

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Pretty much all of the NHL awards have been "donated" so unless the Oilers donate an assist trophy on his behalf, good luck.

Rocket Trophy was dominated by the Habs, hence the name on it.

Personally I don't think they should change the names of the trophies and honestly wish they would have kept the Lindsay as the Pearson trophy.

Total agree. And I'm a big Ted Lindsay fan.
 

tazzy19

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Mar 27, 2008
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This is a slippery slope, because the line has to be drawn somewhere. How many phantom assists did each player receive? Are certain scorekeepers for particular games more stingy on providing assists than others?

I guess the three main arguments for using goals as the tiebreak would be the following:

1) While goals and assists are worth the same, each scoring play has the potential to provide twice as many assists as goals. Theoretically, a player can rack a boatload of secondary assists, which didn't contribute much to the goal. I'm not saying this happened with Gretzky, but I'm saying in general.

2) Goals are much less subjective. They are the black and white figure, where you automatically register a goal when the puck crosses the line. Sure, there are the rare occurrences of perhaps an early whistle which waives off an actual goal, but relative to assists, they are a much less subjective stat.

3). This is probably the biggest argument for goals. They are sexy. Which individual record is considered the most sacred, and caused the greatest following when it was on the verge of being broken?

At the end of the day, it's a business, and you have to please your stakeholders, one of which is the fans. They love their goals, and this tiebreak aligns with that reality.
As to your last point ("goals being the most sexy and sacred, and therefore most important and followed as far as individual records"), I would have to vehemently disagree. If goals are the most sacred and important, then why is it that the record that drew the biggest media attention around the hockey world (in the history of the sport, many would agree) was Gretzky breaking Howe's all time points scoring recored with 1851 points? That number is iconic. 802, not so much. But why not, if goals are the most important and sacred? Why so much more fuss over 1851? Howe was following Gretzky around for the points record for a week, until he broke it in Edmonton. Why didn't Howe even show up for Gretzky's 802nd goal, let alone not follow him around for a week? Clearly, the goals record wasn't as important for him as the points record. Ask any player which record they would rather break. The all time points record or the goal scoring record. I would be shocked if more than 10-20% said the goal scoring record, and that's being generous.
 
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Laphroaig

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I had no problem with the way the Art Ross and Calder trophies were awarded when I lived in Edmonton in 1980 and I still don't. What does shock me to the core is that any hockey fan would argue, with a straight face, that assists are as valuable as goals. You can score a goal without an assist but I've yet to see someone credited with an assist when no goal was scored. And don't get me started on secondary assists.
 

Thenameless

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Apr 29, 2014
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Except the NHL itself has always officially designated 1 assist as equal in points to 1 goal. So, no.

There just need not be a tie-breaker. Why would there be a tie-breaker for points and not for goals? Stupid.

Like I said, it's a roundabout way of saying it. They're not saying it directly, but it's implied in this tie breaker.

In a ridiculous reality, most of us would take a guy with a hundred goals and no assists, over a guy with a hundred assists and no goals.
 
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The Pale King

Go easy on those Mango Giapanes brother...
Sep 24, 2011
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Not directing this at anyone in particular but this thread is reminding me of the time that body building forum had a lengthy and serious debate about the number of days in a week.



You all are smarter and more civil, but just at certain points there is a similar sort of misunderstanding. :laugh: Carry on.
 
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JianYang

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As to your last point ("goals being the most sexy and sacred, and therefore most important and followed as far as individual records"), I would have to vehemently disagree. If goals are the most sacred and important, then why is it that the record that drew the biggest media attention around the hockey world (in the history of the sport, many would agree) was Gretzky breaking Howe's all time points scoring recored with 1851 points? That number is iconic. 802, not so much. But why not, if goals are the most important and sacred? Why so much more fuss over 1851? Howe was following Gretzky around for the points record for a week, until he broke it in Edmonton. Why didn't Howe even show up for Gretzky's 802nd goal, let alone not follow him around for a week? Clearly, the goals record wasn't as important for him as the points record. Ask any player which record they would rather break. The all time points record or the goal scoring record. I would be shocked if more than 10-20% said the goal scoring record, and that's being generous.

I was speaking about goals in comparison to assists, rather than total points.

Points are definitely a big deal, I would agree with that. They stopped the game for a ceremony when Gretzky broke the points record, and I know they stopped the game when he broke the goals record too. But I'm not even sure when Wayne broke the assists record and whether they even stopped the game for it.

I think the discussion was more about the tiebreaker used on the point totals, so I kind of isolated it goals versus assists. Re-reading my original post, I don't blame you for thinking otherwise though. I got so honed in on goals versus assists, that I didn't even consider that total points existed for a moment.
 
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tazzy19

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Mar 27, 2008
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I was speaking about goals in comparison to assists, rather than total points.

Points are definitely a big deal, I would agree with that. They stopped the game for a ceremony when Gretzky broke the points record, and I know they stopped the game when he broke the goals record too. But I'm not even sure when Wayne broke the assists record and whether they even stopped the game for it.

I think the discussion was more about the tiebreaker used on the point totals, so I kind of isolated it goals versus assists. Re-reading my original post, I don't blame you for thinking otherwise though. I got so honed in on goals versus assists, that I didn't even consider that total points existed for a moment.
But I think, almost inadvertently, you just nailed the crux of the issue here. I know you were speaking of goals vs. assists (as opposed to total points), yet you raise a very good point. Total points are apparently even more important than goals. Yet total points are made up of goals and/or assists, in any measure of either one of them (a point can be a goal and it's also true a point can be an assist). So how in the world can anyone argue that a goal is more important than an assist if they equally contribute to total points, which you have now pointed out are more important than total goals? Interesting dilemma for the people who say a goal is worth more than an assist....
 

Dennis Bonvie

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I had no problem with the way the Art Ross and Calder trophies were awarded when I lived in Edmonton in 1980 and I still don't. What does shock me to the core is that any hockey fan would argue, with a straight face, that assists are as valuable as goals. You can score a goal without an assist but I've yet to see someone credited with an assist when no goal was scored. And don't get me started on secondary assists.

Excellent post.
 

The Panther

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Mar 25, 2014
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I had no problem with the way the Art Ross and Calder trophies were awarded when I lived in Edmonton in 1980 and I still don't. What does shock me to the core is that any hockey fan would argue, with a straight face, that assists are as valuable as goals. You can score a goal without an assist but I've yet to see someone credited with an assist when no goal was scored. And don't get me started on secondary assists.
That's a pretty flimsy point. How many goals in history would never have been scored if not for one (or either of) the assist-receivers? Maybe 50%?

Again, the salient matter is not whether we, as fans with subjective opinions, think assists are worth goals or not. The salient matter is that the NHL itself has forever determined that an assist is equal to a goal in scoring.
 
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tazzy19

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That's a pretty flimsy point. How many goals in history would never have been scored if not for one (or either of) the assist-receivers? Maybe 50%?

Again, the salient matter is not whether we, as fans with subjective opinions, think assists are worth goals or not. The salient matter is that the NHL itself has forever determined that an assist is equal to a goal in scoring.
Exactly this.
 

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