Great Fight Debate - II

[sarge88]

They aren't wrong necessarily. But they aren't right unless they have evidence other than an opinion. If one believes something has a causative effect then the onus is on them to provide evidence of it.

I look at it differently.

To me, if they play or coach the game from the perspective that it is a factor, that gives it legitimacy.

 

[NeelyDan]

Someone disagrees with me, therefor they are embarrassing.... and I'M accused of thinking I have all the answers.

Nope. Not even close. Plenty have presented opposing views that I’ve indicated a ton of respect for - Chief Nine being the most recent.

Keep personalizing though.

 

[KrejciMVP]

I look at it differently.

To me, if they play or coach the game from the perspective that it is a factor, that gives it legitimacy.

the fighting toughness debate gets a bit off the rails. The 2011 team had toughness and guys who could throw down if they had to. They spread around the fighting duties well too from Thornton, Mcquaid, Lucic, Cambell, Hornton etc. This even made the skill players comfortable, making plays, playing physical, and even fighting at times bc they knew guys had their back. We've see this work and comparing it to this years to it's we're not even close.

This isn't hard to see

 

[NeelyDan]

Will (hopefully) take this debacle of a thread on a tangent with an interesting view from tsn:

https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/did-the-bruins-lay-out-a-blueprint-on-how-to-beat-the-leafs~1560788

 

[NeelyDan]

And no, this is not to say there is an opposing straw-man view that some don't want physical hockey - the link was not to suggest that.

 

[Dr Quincy]

I look at it differently.

To me, if they play or coach the game from the perspective that it is a factor, that gives it legitimacy.

So therefor since players want unlimited free agency, no salary cap, fewer games and complete no movement contracts... you're ok with that too?

I mean the players are the ones playing the game, and they say fewer games would be better for their health. So you must agree.
And they say that unlike other jobs that allow people freedom to choose whom to work for, they are stuck with no choice and UFA should happen right away. You must be for that too.

Why do you doubt what the players in the locker rooms are saying?

 

[sarge88]

So therefor since players want unlimited free agency, no salary cap, fewer games and complete no movement contracts... you're ok with that too?

I mean the players are the ones playing the game, and they say fewer games would be better for their health. So you must agree.
And they say that unlike other jobs that allow people freedom to choose whom to work for, they are stuck with no choice and UFA should happen right away. You must be for that too.

Why do you doubt what the players in the locker rooms are saying?

Those things are tangible and players “wishing” they were the way things were structured through the CBA is a much different discussion.

I don’t see anyone saying that NMC’s, Free Agency or a Salary Cap do not exist, like you’re saying toughness as a deterrent doesn’t exist,

 

[LSCII]

Will (hopefully) take this debacle of a thread on a tangent with an interesting view from tsn:

https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/did-the-bruins-lay-out-a-blueprint-on-how-to-beat-the-leafs~1560788

Can't view as I'm not in Canada. Can you summarize it for us not able to view it?

 

[Dr Quincy]

Those things are tangible and players “wishing” they were the way things were structured through the CBA is a much different discussion.

I don’t see anyone saying that NMC’s, Free Agency or a Salary Cap do not exist, like you’re saying toughness as a deterrent doesn’t exist,

Players say a reduced schedule would lead to less injuries, just like having an enforcer would.

So they must be right. They know more about what causes injuries to them.

 

[sarge88]

Players say a reduced schedule would lead to less injuries, just like having an enforcer would.

So they must be right. They know more about what causes injuries to them.

I agree with that...it’s logic.

Less games = less opportunity to get injured.

Still not seeing how agreeing with/believing in the tangible, logical things that players say is the equivalent of you disagreeing with their opinions regarding something that it not tangible but a widely held belief....that being toughness as a deterrent.

Now....if you were to tell me that most players and coaches felt that toughness isn’t a deterrent, then I’d believe them.

Conversely, if you you told me that most players felt that scoring the first goal led to winning more often than not.....I’d simply check the stats to see if I agreed or not, because that is a statistically provable thing.

 

[NeelyDan]

Can't view as I'm not in Canada. Can you summarize it for us not able to view it?

Sure.

It was really three points - one highlighting the possibility that being physical with Toronto (read: looking for opportunities to hit their skilled players hard, he alluded to the opening shift where 73 took a penalty and 46 followed up with a second shove on Marner) potentially knocked them off their game and out of their comfort zone, leading to uncharacteristic plays.

Subsequent to that, referenced a recent Babcock quote where he said that his team's power play will be their toughness response, which Poulin agreed with so long as, to the first point he made, their players don't end up off their game.

Lastly, made a point that if teams continue to exploit this perceived weakness, you don't want Kadri fighting 6'5 Carlo and drew a parallel to Gryz. Said it's on Dubas to figure out how to make skilled players more comfortable, and said that in spite of it being a different game when he played for Philly, having guys that could do some policing on the ice made him very comfortable and made the locker room generally comfortable.

 

[LSCII]

Sure.

It was really three points - one highlighting the possibility that being physical with Toronto (read: looking for opportunities to hit their skilled players hard, he alluded to the opening shift where 73 took a penalty and 46 followed up with a second shove on Marner) potentially knocked them off their game and out of their comfort zone, leading to uncharacteristic plays.

Subsequent to that, referenced a recent Babcock quote where he said that his team's power play will be their toughness response, which Poulin agreed with so long as, to the first point he made, their players don't end up off their game.

Lastly, made a point that if teams continue to exploit this perceived weakness, you don't want Kadri fighting 6'5 Carlo and drew a parallel to Gryz. Said it's on Dubas to figure out how to make skilled players more comfortable, and said that in spite of it being a different game when he played for Philly, having guys that could do some policing on the ice made him very comfortable and made the locker room generally comfortable.

Thanks for the rundown. I get what they're trying to say in the article, and it's possible the B's did show the rest of the league the template to beat TO, but and this is a really big one, having a template is nice and all, but the team still needs to execute on that plan to make it happen. Just because one team can do it or has done it, it doesn't mean every team will find success as well. It's a mix of execution and the right guys. I also think that Boston has Toronto's number for some reason, and has for a long time.

Instead of saying the B's win was the template, I think it would be more accurate to say that TO doesn't match up favorably to what the B's can do and that would be a bigger reason for any success. It's the equivalent of the B's playing the Caps. We all know how that's going to go because we've all seen it way too often. Is that really a template for other teams to follow, or is it more a product of the Caps matching up favorably to what Boston tries to do?

I would also say that the win the other night wasn't due to physicality as much as it was because the B's came out fast and got a lead. Teams like Toronto are great front runners, but you get them down by a few goals and it forces them to change how they attack because you can afford to hang back and wait for their stretch plays instead of pushing for offense.

 

[NeelyDan]

Thanks for the rundown. I get what they're trying to say in the article, and it's possible the B's did show the rest of the league the template to beat TO, but and this is a really big one, having a template is nice and all, but the team still needs to execute on that plan to make it happen. Just because one team can do it or has done it, it doesn't mean every team will find success as well. It's a mix of execution and the right guys. I also think that Boston has Toronto's number for some reason, and has for a long time.

Instead of saying the B's win was the template, I think it would be more accurate to say that TO doesn't match up favorably to what the B's can do and that would be a bigger reason for any success. It's the equivalent of the B's playing the Caps. We all know how that's going to go because we've all seen it way too often. Is that really a template for other teams to follow, or is it more a product of the Caps matching up favorably to what Boston tries to do?

I would also say that the win the other night wasn't due to physicality as much as it was because the B's came out fast and got a lead. Teams like Toronto are great front runners, but you get them down by a few goals and it forces them to change how they attack because you can afford to hang back and wait for their stretch plays instead of pushing for offense.

I agree with nearly all of that, and a more fitting time for this thread to end might never, ever occur.

 

[Mathews28]

Oleksiak KO’d by Tom Wilson tonight.

Don’t believe he returned to game.

 

[LouJersey]

Oleksiak KO’d by Tom Wilson tonight.

Don’t believe he returned to game.

Was looking forward to Wilson answering the bell, should have realized he’d be a slime ball about that too. Oleksiak should have realized he would never square off against him and have been ready for anything.

 

[KrejciMVP]

Was looking forward to Wilson answering the bell, should have realized he’d be a slime ball about that too. Oleksiak should have realized he would never square off against him and have been ready for anything.

I'm looking forward to a Bruins fight someday

 

[LouJersey]

I'm looking forward to a Bruins fight someday

Don’t hold your breath. Wilson would never fight Chara and already lost one to Miller so unless he picks a guy like Wagner you’ll never see it

 

[Over the volcano]

I'm looking forward to a Bruins fight someday

Think they’re still leading the league in fighting majors -might be worth turning on a game or two

 

[KrejciMVP]

Think they’re still leading the league - might be worth turning on a game or two

Oh stop lol

 

[Over the volcano]

Oh stop lol

They have fought more than the Caps and Pens combined.

 

[KrejciMVP]

They have fought more than the Caps and Pens combined.

Bruins dont fight..they get bullied and laughed at in that department

 

[Over the volcano]

Bruins dont fight..they get bullied and laughed at in that department

Just ask the leafs

 

[GloryDaze4877]

They have fought more than the Caps and Pens combined.

Stats mean nothing to me. I would rather go by my own reality, regardless of what the truth is...

That said, looking forward to Miller and Chara back in the lineup. Miller in particular brings a needed physical component.

As I’m typing this, Auston Matthews is shown prancing around on stage in a ballet (Nutcracker I assume).

 

[Sheppy]

They have fought more than the Caps and Pens combined.

Define fight? They've fought 22 times, including the pre-season and came out not beat up in 2 of them.

Again, appreciate the willingness, but the guys who have been doing the heavy lifting would get their teeth kicked in by Gregory Campbell 9 times out of 10.

 

[Clode]

Define fight? They've fought 22 times, including the pre-season and came out not beat up in 2 of them.

Again, appreciate the willingness, but the guys who have been doing the heavy lifting would get their teeth kicked in by Gregory Campbell 9 times out of 10.

Which says a lot lol