Salary Cap: Grade Last off-season moves

[Xspyrit]

Of course, this has been discussed before but was curious to have a more global opinion on this because I have been told that I was being disingenuous thinking we really didn't have a good offseason last year and it was one of the main reasons why we started so poorly (2-12-1). One poster makes it sound like I am in the minority here so I am actually wondering if I have been wrong all the way, so I am ready to re-evaluate and change my opinion if it's consensually a much better off-season than I thought

"but pretending that it was all some grand mismanagement blunder, instead of the plan, as you continue to do, is in my opinion extremely disingenuous, and distracts from discussions and debates on what actually took place"


So was it an ideal off-season? Was it a great off-season? Was it a good off-season? Was it "ok"? Was it "bad"? Was it awful? How would you rate it?

Forgot to say : this is of course in hindsight with what we know today


Ottawa Senators Acquired:

Matt Murray 4 years x $6,250,000 AAV
Austin Watson 3 years x $1,500,000 AAV
Joshua Brown 2 years x $1,200,000 AAV
Derek Stepan 1 year x $6,500,000 AAV
Erik Gudbranson 1 year x $4,000,000 AAV
Braydon Coburn 1 year x $1,700,000 AAV
Cédric Paquette 1 year x $1,650,000 AAV
2022 2nd round pick (TBL)

Free Agents Signings :

Evgeni Dadonov 3 years x $5,000,000 AAV
Alex Galchenyuk 1 year x $1,050,000 AAV

Assets "going the other way" :

Rudolfs Balcers (prospect) : lost on waivers
Jonathan Gruden (prospect)
2021 2nd round pick (CBJ - #37)
2020 2nd round pick (CBJ - #52)
2020 4th round pick (OTT - #95)
2021 4th round pick (COL - #124)
2021 5th round pick (EDM - #148)

Other related events

a) EDIT : I totally forgot that we let 25 y/o Anthony Duclair walk away for nothing

b) Artem Anisimov was still there and started the season while Colin White sat 4 of the first 6 games.

c) Marián Gáborík + Anders Nilsson to Tampa Bay (LTIR cap dumps, Melnyk saved the non insured money : ~20%)


2 side questions :

1) Did it have any influence on the team results
2) Do you prefer the 2021-22 off-season?

Click to read more...

 

[Golden_Jet]

It was a good offseason bringing in some vets for the kids, we weren’t winning anything last year or this year, so let the players develop and learn how to be a pro. They’ve become a better “team”, teammates are happy for each other.
Around 6/10 considering not expecting much last year.

Not having a pre season after so much time off, also hurt
The whole premise of this topic is all an evaluation in hindsight though.

 

[Xspyrit]

It was a good offseason bringing in some vets for the kids, we weren’t winning anything last year or this year, so let the players develop.
Around 7/10 considering not expecting much last year.

But look at assets given up/lost, look at the money spent

Assets :

Rudolfs Balcers + 2 x 2nd + 2 x 4th + 5th

Money :

Matt Murray 4 years x $6,250,000 AAV
Derek Stepan 1 year x $6,500,000 AAV
Erik Gudbranson 1 year x $4,000,000 AAV
Evgeni Dadonov 3 years x $5,000,000 AAV


If they weren't at least trying to "save face" in the canadian division, why not go for cheaper options in terms of money and assets?

 

[dumbdick]

Yeah, not a great off season by any stretch. I won't completely throw the team under the bus though. Bringing in stop-gap vets is a better plan than gifting your youth a bunch of NHL spots.

Losing Balcers and the 2nd for Stepan hurt.

In a parallel universe, the stop gap vets (Stepan, Paquette, Coburn, Gudbranson) held their value better and we recouped back what we paid for them at the deadline. That wasn't a terrible gamble, but it just didn't shake out that way.

 

[Dan Patrick]

The moves were fine with the information we had going into the season. There were no guarantees Norris, Batherson, Stützle or Zub were going to prove to be NHL regulars right off the hop and bringing in bodies in case that they weren't was necessary to ice a hockey team. I said average as none of the players brought in really exceeded my expectations but they didn't significantly hamper the team in any way. Last year was always going to be a development year and hindsight is 20/20. While Columbus's 2nd round pick would have been nice and was the largest piece given up it's not an asset im going to lose considerable sleep over.

 

[JD1]

But look at assets given up/lost, look at the money spent

Assets :

Rudolfs Balcers + 2 x 2nd + 2 x 4th + 5th

Money :

Matt Murray 4 years x $6,250,000 AAV
Derek Stepan 1 year x $6,500,000 AAV
Erik Gudbranson 1 year x $4,000,000 AAV
Evgeni Dadonov 3 years x $5,000,000 AAV


If they wren't at least trying to "save face" in the canadian division, why not go for cheaper options in terms of money and assets?

You asked for opinions. First guy that gave you one...you didn't like...now it seems you want a debate

 

[Xspyrit]

You asked for opinions. First guy that gave you one...you didn't like...now it seems you want a debate

What makes you think I "didn't like"? I simply asked a question lol

I don't necessarily want a "debate" but a discussion, why not? Is it not the goal here?

 

[JD1]

What makes you think I "didn't like"? I simply asked a question lol

I don't necessarily want a "debate" but a discussion, why not? Is it not the goal here?

What made me think you didn't like his opinion? Your response

 

[Xspyrit]

Yeah, not a great off season by any stretch. I won't completely throw the team under the bus though. Bringing in stop-gap vets is a better plan than gifting your youth a bunch of NHL spots.

Losing Balcers and the 2nd for Stepan hurt.

In a parallel universe, the stop gap vets (Stepan, Paquette, Coburn, Gudbranson) held their value better and we recouped back what we paid for them at the deadline. That wasn't a terrible gamble, but it just didn't shake out that way.

Maybe it's just me but this post sounds like reality.

The moves were fine with the information we had going into the season. There were no guarantees Norris, Batherson, Stützle or Zub were going to prove to be NHL regulars right off the hop and bringing in bodies in case that they weren't was necessary to ice a hockey team. I said average as none of the players brought in really exceeded my expectations but they didn't significantly hamper the team in any way. Last year was always going to be a development year and hindsight is 20/20. While Columbus's 2nd round pick would have been nice and was the largest piece given up it's not an asset im going to lose considerable sleep over.

Yeah, forgot to mention but it's obviously in hindsight.

I thought some moves were BAD right away but not all of them. Example, I thought Murray and Dadonov moves would have worked better. So yeah, I am talking based on what we know today, after the fact.

What made me think you didn't like his opinion? Your response

lol this is paranoia. I stated facts, asked a simple question

Please... not really interested in this non-sense

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I thought the poll was for this current off season. I changed my vote from poor to bad for 20/21. I am considering changing it to really bad.
This offseason .. Dorion did less so it was bound to be better and he got rid of Dadonov which I thought was going to be tougher so he gets a poor vs bad.

Talked myself into Really bad for 20/21 as things turned out. Awful is beckoning.

 

[IranCondraAffair]

1. Every Sens fan should be able to recognize that management went above and beyond to insulate our young players with these moves. That is almost indisputable. We started 2-12-1 anyway. Can you imagine if we HADN'T grabbed Murray, Dadonov, Gudbranson, and Stepan? People like yourself would have eviscerated Dorion if we started that way. For good reason! Dorion had no choice but to make some moves to provide depth.

2. Outside of Murray (which may also potentially work out, as it is a bit of an incomplete judgement because he only played 27 games ) have any of these moves potentially altered the Franchise in a negative way?

3. Since honesty forces us to admit he had to do something, is there any move out there we know was available to Dorion that was better? We're already judging the results in hindsight which is completely unfair. The only way we can criticize his moves with any level of fairness is to compare them to moves we knew were available. I have yet to hear any alternatives we know were available.

4. You're being completely unfair/disingenuous to Dorion in the way you listed those moves. You left out acquiring Zub, the best move of the offseason. Why? You also listed all the picks that he sent out, but not the ones he acquired at the deadline and the one he got for Dadonov, why? You added losing Balcers but not adding Mete, why? You listed Stepan's and Gudbanson's AAVs but not their salary, why?

As far as addressing weaknesses on the roster? Dorion gets a 10/10 for me. He added experience, depth, character, and he added players in positions where we were weakest to start the season. He didn't overpay like crazy. That's what a GM is supposed to do.

Honestly, in retrospect, the only consequential things that happened was adding Murray, losing two seconds, getting Zub, acquiring a 2nd and a 3rd, and adding some veteran depth/experience while the team developed. If the worst thing that happened is swinging and missing on Murray while hitting a home run on Zub. I'm fine with it.

 

[Xspyrit]

I thought the poll was for this current off season. I changed my vote from poor to bad for 20/21. I am considering changing it to really bad.
This offseason .. Dorion did less so it was bound to be better and he got rid of Dadonov which I thought was going to be tougher so he gets a poor vs bad.

Talked myself into Really bad for 20/21 as things turned out. Awful is beckoning.

This off-season is a success in comparison. We fixed the Dadonov investment that didn't work out, got a 3rd round pick and a capable D-man in return. It was one of Dorion good moves

Del Zotto should also be decent and at 2.0 AAV, this is not a big risk to fail. Just don't play him over his head.

We had high expectations based on their comments and how they wanted to take the next step but it probably would have cost too much in terms of assets and/or money...

But that's the thing, Rudolfs Balcers, Logan Brown, Erik Brannstrom and even Filip Chlapik could be assets or better assets right now, and all those picks from last year...

What could you get for Brannstrom + Balcers + 2nd

IMO this could have been our version of Ryder + Halak + 2nd

 

[JD1]

lol this is paranoia. I stated facts, asked a simple question

Please... not really interested in this non-sense

Dude....after a lengthy exchange with @Ice-Tray you started a poll, looking for reinforcement of your very vocal view that the previous off season was a disaster

The initial response to your poll and your reaction to it is above

It is what it is...

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Almost everyone they brought in didnt work out in the roles they were put in and they wasted a decent amount of cash to do so.

They tried to be more bold and I appreciate that but the choices they made mostly failed imo.

That said, they got out from under the Dadonov mistake, didn't bring Gud or Stepan back, and Matt Murray might not be a complete waste of money going forward like he was most of last year.

 

[ATdaisuki]

Grading the moves individually using the terminology in the poll.

Trades

Player and contract	Thoughts at the time	Thoughts in hindsight
1. Matt Murray 4 years x $6,250,000 AAV	Poor	Bad
2. Austin Watson 3 years x $1,500,000 AAV	Average	Average
3. Joshua Brown 2 years x $1,200,000 AAV	Poor	Poor
4. Derek Stepan 1 year x $6,500,000 AAV	Really bad	Awful
5. Erik Gudbranson 1 year x $4,000,000 AAV	Poor	Poor
Braydon Coburn 1 year x $1,700,000 AAV	See scores for TBL 2nd	See scores for TBL 2nd
Cédric Paquette 1 year x $1,650,000 AAV	See scores for TBL 2nd	See scores for TBL 2nd
6. 2022 2nd round pick (TBL)	Great	Good

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1. I didn't want Murray because I knew his contract would be bigger than it should be. Then he played even worse than I expected, then we picked up a goalie that performed better off waivers. Those picks should have been turned into one of the good defensemen that were moved last offseason. He gave us reason to hope for a bounce back season, so the hindsight score doesn't go down too much.
2. Watson is a good bottom line player with term for a decent price. Not a lot to say
3. I feel like we overpaid on Brown.
4. Stepan was bad and we paid too much for him.
5. Poor in the context that he's not great and there were better guys on the market. We didn't pay a lot, but he wasn't great.
6. The trade was great. Neither of the dumps we got worked out for us, and I wouldn't have docked it so much if 1. we didn't play Coburn 2. Paquette worked out 3. Dzingel/whatever else we could have traded Paquette for performed better for us


Free Agents Signings :

Player and contract	Thoughts at the time	Thoughts in hindsight
1. Evgeni Dadonov 3 years x $5,000,000 AAV	Perfect	Good
2. Alex Galchenyuk 1 year x $1,050,000 AAV	Average	Awful
3. Micheal Haley 1 year x $700,000 AAV	Average	Average

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1. I didn't expect Dadonov to score the way he did in Florida, but I expected him to give more offensively than he did. His play other than that was good. Paul - White - Dadonov was a good line. I might have docked it one more level if we didn't move him for what we did this offseason.
2. I know it was mentioned that Stepan costed us Balcers, but it was really this guy. Did nothing for us, recouped no assets, costed us a decent player.
3. Meh

Between here and the last part I'm not really sure I can include in the offseason moves

2 side questions :

1) Did it have any influence on the team results
2) Do you prefer the 2021-22 off-season?

1. It did, but not drastically. That was a bad roster to start the season.
2. Heck Yes

Additional Notes:

1. I wanted us to add Schmidt or Toews so bad.
2. Identifying and acquiring a better goalie than Murray would have helped at the beginning of the season. If we did everything else the same but had stable goaltending at the beginning of the season, we may have made the playoffs. Out of all the bad moves, this one was the one that could have had the biggest positive impact had it been done right.

My final score that is more based on feeling rather than doing any sort of weird averaging of the scores above making the whole post pointless: 3/10, Bad. There were many good options available but we the same assets that were spent on better players on stopgaps. That's what really gets me about last offseason. I'm glad we did very little this offseason if saved us from making more than one mistake.

 

[Blotto71]

{Insert wet fart noise}

This sums up my feeling on the off-season moves last season.

Happy to see the Dadonov signing corrected (as much as it could be), but disappointed in the lack of substantial moves (so far?) this off season.

 

[supsens]

But look at assets given up/lost, look at the money spent

Assets :

Rudolfs Balcers + 2 x 2nd + 2 x 4th + 5th

Money :

Matt Murray 4 years x $6,250,000 AAV
Derek Stepan 1 year x $6,500,000 AAV
Erik Gudbranson 1 year x $4,000,000 AAV
Evgeni Dadonov 3 years x $5,000,000 AAV


If they weren't at least trying to "save face" in the canadian division, why not go for cheaper options in terms of money and assets?

It isn't your money so why would it matter? They also recived draft picks and players in return for who they moved out from that list
2nd+2x3 +2x7 + Dzingle+Holden+Zub*Wattson

A fail would have brining players that stole and kept Jimmy Josh and Forementons spots.
They brought in team first guys that listen to the coach that were easy to get rid of.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It isn't your money so why would it matter? They also recived draft picks and players in return for who they moved out from that list
2nd+2x3 +2x7 + Dzingle+Holden+Zub*Wattson

A fail would have brining players that stole and kept Jimmy Josh and Forementons spots.
They brought in team first guys that listen to the coach that were easy to get rid of.

Maybe because they're a fan of the Ottawa Senators? They would probably prefer money be spent on players able to have an impact on the ice and improve the teams performance, thus increasing their enjoyment of watching the product they're a fan of.

 

[supsens]

Maybe because they're a fan of the Ottawa Senators? They would probably prefer money be spent on players able to have an impact on the ice and improve the teams performance, thus increasing their enjoyment of watching the product they're a fan of.

They wanted to move the new core in and that was done, it was the entire point of the season. If guys like Norris and Jimmy were not ready it was still going to be tank time. Other than Brown everything seems to have gone to plan.


How do you bring in better players who block the rookies and somehow play the rookies at the same time?

 

[Xspyrit]

I need to put things in perspective here...

I live 20 mins away from the Bell Center, right in the middle of Habs land. There is basically no Senators fan here, people will literally laugh at you if you say you're a Sens fan. At least 95% of my friends who care about hockey are Habs fans and many have tried to convince me to switch camps for years and years. But instead of having fun with them cheering for the Montreal Canadiens, I have stayed LOYAL to the Ottawa Senators for almost 25 years. I have watched the vast majority of their games on TV, even had to pay for NHL Center Ice back in the days. I have made several trips to Ottawa or went to the Bell Center to watch games live. I have spent at least 50 000$ in hockey cards of Ottawa Senators players.

Don't you think I ABSOLUTELY LOVE this team to death and that I support them the most I can? That's without counting the countless hours that I spend promoting their prospects and young players on the net

That being said, do I have to endorse every single move they make? Do I have to LOVE the current owner who has apparently alienated a lot of people?

Not really sure what the problem is with a few posters, but are they trying to suggest that I am a BAD fan? What is it exactly? I'm not really sure what I have done wrong lol. AFAIK, I have never insulted Melnyk/Dorion by calling them names like I have often seen people do. Or I have never wished death to Melnyk even if it's another thing I have seen before

 

[Xspyrit]

Dude....after a lengthy exchange with @Ice-Tray you started a poll, looking for reinforcement of your very vocal view that the previous off season was a disaster

The initial response to your poll and your reaction to it is above

It is what it is...

What does it change why I have started a poll? It is stated right there in the OP, nothing to hide. He was making it sound like I was in the minority who thought we had a really bad off-season last year so I wanted to see if I was crazy or not. I even said that I would change my opinion right away if there was a concensus that it wasn't as bad as I thought. How many times do you change your opinions "dude"?

There's abolutely no problem with my reaction with the initial response. It really is in your head,

I mean, what is not a LEGIT QUESTION?

Why not go for cheaper options in terms of money and assets?

Matt Murray 4 years x $6,250,000 AAV
Derek Stepan 1 year x $6,500,000 AAV
Erik Gudbranson 1 year x $4,000,000 AAV
Evgeni Dadonov 3 years x $5,000,000 AAV

Find me a 21 750 000$ AAV that was worsely invested than that (outside of Sharks and Sabres in hindsight of course! And even then, I'd rather have EK++ )

 

[Dan Patrick]

I need to put things in perspective here...

I live 20 mins away from the Bell Center, right in the middle of Habs land. There is basically no Senators fan here, people will literally laugh at you if you say you're a Sens fan. At least 95% of my friends who care about hockey are Habs fans and many have tried to convince to switch camps for years and years. But instead of having fun with them cheering for the Montreal Canadiens, I have stayed LOYAL to the Ottawa Senators for almost 25 years. I have watched the vast majority of their games on TV, even had to pay for NHL Center Ice back in the days. I have spent at least 50 000$ in hockey cards of Ottawa Senators players.

Don't you think I ABSOLUTELY LOVE this team to death and that I support them the most I can? That's without the countless hours that I spend promoting their prospects and young players

That being said, do I have to endorse every single move they make? Do I have to LOVE the current owner who has apparently alienated a lot of people?

Not really sure what the problem is with a few posters, but are they trying to suggest that I am a BAD fan? What is it exactly? I'm not really sure what I have done wrong lol. AFAIK, I have never insulted them by calling them names like I have often seen people do. Or I have never wished death to Melnyk even if it's another thing I have seen before

I wouldn't take things so personally man. I enjoy shooting the shit about the hockey team I cheer for and this is one of the best places to do it. If I was at the bar talking to my friends about the same stuff I'd expect them to call me a dumb homer half the time anyway. Strangers on the internet are going to be a lot harsher. Don't take personal criticism too seriously.

I dont mind this topic and its always better than letting another thread go off the rails. We're coming to the end of some hard years as Sens fans and people are only going to get more critical of organizational moves. I dont think theres anything inherently wrong with that but I'm an optomist about a lot of Sens related stuff recently so I know im going to butt heads with a lot of people on here. But really thats half the fun anyway.

 

[supsens]

What does it change why I have started a poll? It is stated right there in the OP, nothing to hide. He was making it sound like I was in the minority who thought we had a really bad off-season last year so I wanted to see if I was crazy or not. I even said that I would change my opinion right away if there was a concensus that it wasn't as bad as I thought. How many times do you change your opinions "dude"?

There's abolutely no problem with my reaction with the initial response. It really is in your head,

I mean is not not a LEGIT QUESTION?

Why not go for cheaper options in terms of money and assets?

Matt Murray 4 years x $6,250,000 AAV
Derek Stepan 1 year x $6,500,000 AAV
Erik Gudbranson 1 year x $4,000,000 AAV
Evgeni Dadonov 3 years x $5,000,000 AAV

Find me a 21 750 000$ AAV that was worse invested than that (outside of Sharks and Sabres in hindsight of course! And even then, I'd rather have EK++ )

Try with the real money spent on these players since the money matters so much
Dado and Stepan together made 5.5 Gud was paid 3

(EK++) minus Norris and Jimmy...no thanks

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Thus far, a 5/10.

Our best moves this off-season, were the ones we did not make, considering the price some pieces were going for and whatnot.

I like how we freed up space with Dadonov move, the MDZ and Holden moves were great depth moves, I thought. They are solid bottom pair duo, nothing more.

I LOVED the Batherson deal, it literally is the reason I did not rank us poor. If we sign Tkachuk bridge, it stays at 5/10. If we sign Brady longterm, it'll be 6/10 and 7/10 if he gets less than 8 mil.

 

[Chabot84]

If Murray turns out to be a top 10 #1 goalie in the league for this team, I would give that off season a high grade based off that alone. For now I would call it poor.