Speculation: Gostisbehere placed on waivers by Philly

[Winger98]

This is an interesting statement. One that is connected to Expectations for how rebuilds are supposed to work.

Do you remember Chicago in the 2000's?
Chicago was bad for like a decade. It also helps when they were dead last, they received the 1st pick in Kane.
But they were bad for like a decade.

Washington starts rebuilding and gets Ovechkin in year 1/2 of that rebuild.
Pittsburgh gets Crosby/Malkin in year 1/2 of that rebuild.

This 5 year timeline is WRONG... or more so ONLY possible if you get lucky as shit.

The most recent rebuild that is working well is. TORONTO. Who got Matthews (A superstar) in the year they placed dead last. ALSO, people forget that Toronto was bad for like a Decade as well. If you look closely, their rebuild took a LONG LONG time.

We have not drafted top 3 yet. We have finished 3rd last, 3rd last and last.... YET, we have never drafted a top 3 pick.
The current draft lottery rules have really taken apart this timeline.

I would like this to go faster. But each rebuild is unique. And quite frankly lottery luck in the right year is more important than the drafting ability of your scouts.

How many GMs did Chicago go through in their decade of futility? Toronto? More than one. More than two. At a minimum, I see Toronto at three and Chicago anywhere from 4-6 depending how you want to count the numerous times Bill Pulford stepped in. Why did they change GMs? Because they were failing.

The last time Boston made the finals how many of their players did they pick in the top3? St. Louis? How is Vancouver's rebuild going? San Jose was a Cup contender for years and their last top3 pick was in 1998. The one top3 pick Winny had was so successful they dealt him last month. The only top3 pick St. Louis has had since 1979 was dealt for Shattenkirk.

Hell, I'm not even sold you should hold Washington up as some sort of exemplar of picking high being necessary. Where did they get Backstrom? 4th. Kuznetsov? 26th. Carlsson? 27th. Wilson? 16th.

If Yzerman is out of the playoffs for five years it is a failure. And that's giving Yzerman five years of his own reign, not including the two years we'd already been out of the playoffs under Holland.

 

[ShippinItDaily]

How many GMs did Chicago go through in their decade of futility? Toronto? More than one. More than two. At a minimum, I see Toronto at three and Chicago anywhere from 4-6 depending how you want to count the numerous times Bill Pulford stepped in. Why did they change GMs? Because they were failing.

The last time Boston made the finals how many of their players did they pick in the top3? St. Louis? How is Vancouver's rebuild going? San Jose was a Cup contender for years and their last top3 pick was in 1998. The one top3 pick Winny had was so successful they dealt him last month. The only top3 pick St. Louis has had since 1979 was dealt for Shattenkirk.

Hell, I'm not even sold you should hold Washington up as some sort of exemplar of picking high being necessary. Where did they get Backstrom? 4th. Kuznetsov? 26th. Carlsson? 27th. Wilson? 16th.

If Yzerman is out of the playoffs for five years it is a failure. And that's giving Yzerman five years of his own reign, not including the two years we'd already been out of the playoffs under Holland.

At some point Yzerman need to be challenged. There's no doubt about that. But there is also a difference between starting at or close to zero versus starting where Yzerman did, which was deep in the hole due to all the terrible contracts he was left to deal with. Clearing those out without adding dead cap space on buyouts should grant him more time than the typical rebuild, especially when you add the terrible lottery luck to that.

 

[Winger98]

At some point Yzerman need to be challenged. There's no doubt about that. But there is also a difference between starting at or close to zero versus starting where Yzerman did, which was deep in the hole due to all the terrible contracts he was left to deal with. Clearing those out without adding dead cap space on buyouts should grant him more time than the typical rebuild, especially when you add the terrible lottery luck to that.

Thing is I hear people talk about the bad contracts, but then they talk about how we shouldn't be spending money signing guys anyway. And these bad contracts we have are bad because the guys signed to them aren't living up to them...which should actually be a positive if your goal is to be really bad and pick high. It can't even be argued that they hampered Yzerman's ability to take on other bad contracts in exchange for picks because it's not like we've been capped out. We've had cap space, Yzerman just hasn't used it.

And Yzerman wasn't starting from zero. I think we can safely say he had a second line and a top4D (Larkin/Bert/Mantha & Hronek) when he came on. He had some interesting pieces in the prospect pipeline (Rasmussen, Zadina, Cholowski, Berrgren, etc.) and some extra picks. He had a coach he must have been fine with, considering he hasn't canned him despite plenty of reasons and opportunities.

It's not a ton, it's not an embarrassment of riches, but it's something where I think five years is plenty of time to build around and compliment to the point of making the playoffs.

 

[ShippinItDaily]

Thing is I hear people talk about the bad contracts, but then they talk about how we shouldn't be spending money signing guys anyway. And these bad contracts we have are bad because the guys signed to them aren't living up to them...which should actually be a positive if your goal is to be really bad and pick high. It can't even be argued that they hampered Yzerman's ability to take on other bad contracts in exchange for picks because it's not like we've been capped out. We've had cap space, Yzerman just hasn't used it.

And Yzerman wasn't starting from zero. I think we can safely say he had a second line and a top4D (Larkin/Bert/Mantha & Hronek) when he came on. He had some interesting pieces in the prospect pipeline (Rasmussen, Zadina, Cholowski, Berrgren, etc.) and some extra picks. He had a coach he must have been fine with, considering he hasn't canned him despite plenty of reasons and opportunities.

It's not a ton, it's not an embarrassment of riches, but it's something where I think five years is plenty of time to build around and compliment to the point of making the playoffs.

He had some pieces, for sure. But if you saw Dom L's team-by-team salary cap structure breakdown at The Athletic you would have seen just how much negative value Detroit was saddled with in Yzerman's first year. Just by getting out of Daley, Ericsson, Howard, etc. the Wings jumped up a ton this past year. From way at the bottom, to at least somewhat respectable for contract value.

I think the improvement happens very slowly and then we see a sharp spike in the quality of this team to get to where everybody wants to be. I think Yzerman will add some more talent on undesireable contracts between the trade deadline and opening night for next season and then make his first significant splash in free agency the year after. This should align nicely with the current young talent starting to establish itself.

 

[jaster]

I see the complaints, but you can start are rebuild and have it go poorly. They 100% were rebuilding. Those were literally our best assets to sell.

Here is a Proper Look at our Rebuild:

I would say we started Rebuilding in 2017:

Trades: (2017)
Feb 24, 2017: Trade Jurco for 2017 3rd
Feb 28, 2017: Trade Smith for 2017 3rd, 2018 2nd
Mar 1, 2017: Trade Vanek for McIlrath, 2017 3rd
March 1, 2017: Trade Ott for 2018 6th

Now This was mostly UFA's but it was clear we were a deadline seller
2017 Draft: We finished 7th Worst, Fell 2 spots to 9, Selected Michael Rasmussen.
The previous 2 years, 2015, 2016 we were 15,16th in draft position. I would call that bubble territory and not in clear rebuild land. Which is why the rebuild began in 2017. (Out of necessity as we all know).

Trades (2017-2018) Season:
Oct 21, 2017: Trade Sheahan + 5th for Wilson + 3rd
Oct 21, 2017: Trade Sproul for Puempel
Dec 4, 2017: Trade Wilson for 2019 5th
Feb 19th, 2018: Trade Mrazek for Conditional 3rd + 4th round picks.
Feb 26th, 2018: Trade Tatar for 2018 1st, 2019 2nd, 2021 3rd (First Big payoff for a solid player)
In the Summer we trade Russo for a conditional 7th.
The 2018 Draft we finish 3rd worst, fall 3 spots to 6th and Select Filip Zadina.

2018-2019 Season:
Feb 22, 2019 Trade Jensen +5th for Bowey + 2020 2nd
Feb 25th 2019 Trade Nyquist for 2019 2nd round pick, 2020 conditional 3rd round pick.

This is the Summer that Holland Moves on and Yzerman takes over:
We again finish 3rd worst and fall 3 spots to 6th and Select Moritz Seider

Aug 14th, 2019: Trade 2020 4th round pick for Adam Erne
Oct 7 2019: Trade David Pope for Alex Biega
Oct 28, 2019: Trade Alec Regula for Brendan Perlini
Nov 6, 2019: Trade De La Rose for Robby Fabbri
Feb 24, 2020: Trade Mike Green for 4th round pick
Feb 24, 2020: Trade Athanasiou + Kuffner for Sam Gagner, 2020 2nd, 2021 2nd (Great Return)
This is the Summer we place dead last... fall 3 spots and select 4th overall Lucas Raymond.

So far this year we have taken on Marc Staal with a 2o21 2nd round pick.

I would say there is a few solid themes here:
1) We have solidly been selling anything we can since the back half of the 2016-2017 Year.
So I would say our rebuild began in 2017.
2) We have not had many good players to sell. So our returns have been minimal.
3) We have fallen down very badly as a result of the draft lottery.
7th --> 9th
3rd--> 6th
3rd-->6th
1st --> 4th
This is a big big factor in why our rebuild is no proceeding like Pittsburgh/Chicago. (or COUGH COUGH NJ and NYR "Rebuilds").
4) Yzerman has actually traded away a few picks/prospects on gambles on reclamation projects. I would say this has worked out well for us.
5) It is clear Yzerman has focused a lot of draft capital on defence men. I think this is a good idea, as they take longer to develop than forwards.
6) Hollands biggest mistake was signing Abdelkader to a 7 year deal, only to realise a few months later, he is going to dismantle the team. Way too many loyalty contracts, and Yzerman is still working through those now

We very clearly have been in a rebuild since 2017.
We can all debate what choices have been done correctly, but it is clear Holland and now Yzerman have been acquiring assets for 4 years now.

Oh I'm not complaining. Well, I guess I am, but that wasn't my point. My point was describing what happened and why Yzerman shouldn't be getting grilled for things Holland did. But good timeline. I agree, those are all signs of rebuilding attempts. As I said, you can go back as far as 2016 to find "rebuilding moves." But under Holland, it was not done properly is my point. He started too late and he had already put many big roadblocks in his own way that directly undermined a proper rebuild (again, I believe somewhat dictated by Mr. I..... it's no coincidence the commitment to rebuilding took it's largest leap under Holland right after Ilitch died). The net result was that the Wings were, at best, only marginally closer to properly rebuilding when Yzerman took over compared to the beginning of your timeline in 2017. For every good thing Holland did, there had been plenty of bad to counteract that.

 

[jaster]

The Tatar/Nyquist deals happened in 2018 and 2019, what contracts did Detroit hand out that were long term and loaded with some sort of NMC/NTC? Helm, Gator, Dekeyser, and Nielsen all date back to 2016. The wings clearly entered the rebuild starting with the 2017 draft. The following two seasons saw them begin shipping out talent for futures. The fact that they had contracts you don't like on the books from prior to that doesn't change that.

You're making excuses for a guy who doesn't deserve them. A proper rebuild isn't being a crap team for 5+ years. That's a failure.

The contracts *I* dislike? Weird way to put that. Did anyone around here like those contracts?

You're missing the point though. I've already said rebuilding attempts were seen as early as 2016. I'm not quibbling over the rebuilding effort put forth in 2017. I'm pointing out the negative things that were coupled to those efforts when there was a GM switch. The timeline of when Holland did what he did is irrelevant. See my last post above this one. I'm talking about what was handed over from Holland to Yzerman. The condition of the franchise. The order of events that led to that condition are immaterial.

Holland did some things right, and some things incredibly poorly in terms of the rebuild. It was only when Yzerman took over that there was full commitment and full competence. Oh and I know some of you will bristle at that last word in the previous sentence, since there seems to be so much belief now that Yzerman is f***ing this all up, especially in light of not picking up a defensively deficient, overrated reclamation project for free.

Good things Holland handed to Yzerman
Draft picks from Nyquist and Tatar trades that turned into Veleno, Mastrosimone, and Johansson

Bad things Holland handed to Yzerman
A bunch of terrible, long-term contracts
A bunch of NTCs and NMCs, and untradeable assets because of them
A grossly deficient scouting staff
Several bad misses early in recent drafts, plus the entirety of the 2017 draft

If you all want to put Holland's screwups on Yzerman, or just ignore that Yzerman had a bunch of extra hills to climb because of Holland, fine I guess. Doesn't make any sense to me though. Context matters if we're judging Yzerman on this rebuild. To say he's 4 years into a rebuild and therefor is behind schedule is intellectually dishonest.

 

[jaster]

How many GMs did Chicago go through in their decade of futility? Toronto? More than one. More than two. At a minimum, I see Toronto at three and Chicago anywhere from 4-6 depending how you want to count the numerous times Bill Pulford stepped in. Why did they change GMs? Because they were failing.

Or because owners who pretty much only care about revenue are as impatient as fans

If Yzerman is out of the playoffs for five years it is a failure. And that's giving Yzerman five years of his own reign, not including the two years we'd already been out of the playoffs under Holland.

That gives him 3 more years. Yet more and more people, less than 2 years in, are already suggesting he's failing. Those two things don't square.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

This is an interesting statement. One that is connected to Expectations for how rebuilds are supposed to work.

Do you remember Chicago in the 2000's?
Chicago was bad for like a decade. It also helps when they were dead last, they received the 1st pick in Kane.
But they were bad for like a decade.

Washington starts rebuilding and gets Ovechkin in year 1/2 of that rebuild.
Pittsburgh gets Crosby/Malkin in year 1/2 of that rebuild.

This 5 year timeline is WRONG... or more so ONLY possible if you get lucky as shit.

The most recent rebuild that is working well is. TORONTO. Who got Matthews (A superstar) in the year they placed dead last. ALSO, people forget that Toronto was bad for like a Decade as well. If you look closely, their rebuild took a LONG LONG time.

We have not drafted top 3 yet. We have finished 3rd last, 3rd last and last.... YET, we have never drafted a top 3 pick.
The current draft lottery rules have really taken apart this timeline.

I would like this to go faster. But each rebuild is unique. And quite frankly lottery luck in the right year is more important than the drafting ability of your scouts.

Now look at Phoenix's entire franchise build, Buffalo and so on. Just only waiting on the draft is stupid and makes that luck the only way...

I get the point, but sit around and play the lottery is a losing strategy and doesn't promise the events you're talking about. Boston and LA the first time had some nice picks, but it cannot be blanketed as the only way and I do understand your point.

What I am asking for is more transparency and honesty. I watch this team every game, you want to keep making us the most talent starved team in the league with not even a mention on how long you're planning fine your choice but mine is to call you out on this.

They had it all over their own walls with great privilege comes great responsibility.... Well O6 team, with a big fan-base that knows the sport. Start explaining this shit, I can be patient but I need to believe it is going somewhere while I watch the dumpster fire. Sorry just really concerned at this point.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I am not sure when exactly the rebuild began but I am a firm believer that we are in for a very long rebuild if only because we did not trade away any of our aging stars. Our rebuild will be prolonged because we didn't get any draft capital out of Pav, Z, Lidstrom, Rafalski and even Franzen for that matter. We rode those guys to the bitter end and left a lot of meaningful draft capital on the table by doing so. I don't begrudge Mr. I for doing so at his stage of life, but I do think we will endure a longer rebuild than most franchises as a result of it.

I can't look at this organization and conclude that we have ANY truly elite talent in the organization. Maybe Seider gets there one day, but I still see a big gulf between the best players on the opposing team each night and our best. Unless and until we have elite talent, we won't truly be competitive.

 

[jaster]

Now look at Phoenix's entire franchise build, Buffalo and so on. Just only waiting on the draft is stupid and makes that luck the only way...

I get the point, but sit around and play the lottery is a losing strategy and doesn't promise the events you're talking about. Boston and LA the first time had some nice picks, but it cannot blanketed and I understand your point.

What I am asking for us more transparency and honesty. I watch this team every game, you want to keep making us the most talent starved team in the league with not even a mention on how long you're planning fine your choice but mine is to call you out on this.

They had it all over there own walls with great privilege comes great responsibility.... Well O6 team, with a big fan-base that knows the sport. Start explaining this shit, I can be patient but I need to believe it is going somewhere while I watch the dumpster fire. Sorry just really concerned at this point.

This isn't a criticism of you, your feelings are valid. But I just can't relate to this idea that I'm owed some explanation by the GM. For me personally, it's a strange concept. If anything, I'd rather he not speak too much. No reason for him to give anything away to the rest of the league in terms of his strategy. I understand that opens the door to giving too much leeway to a crappy GM, possibly allowing him to stay on longer than he should. But I have a high level of trust in Yzerman in this case, he has a very respectable resume, and I'm fine giving him some extra rope because of that.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

How many GMs did Chicago go through in their decade of futility? Toronto? More than one. More than two. At a minimum, I see Toronto at three and Chicago anywhere from 4-6 depending how you want to count the numerous times Bill Pulford stepped in. Why did they change GMs? Because they were failing.

The last time Boston made the finals how many of their players did they pick in the top3? St. Louis? How is Vancouver's rebuild going? San Jose was a Cup contender for years and their last top3 pick was in 1998. The one top3 pick Winny had was so successful they dealt him last month. The only top3 pick St. Louis has had since 1979 was dealt for Shattenkirk.

Hell, I'm not even sold you should hold Washington up as some sort of exemplar of picking high being necessary. Where did they get Backstrom? 4th. Kuznetsov? 26th. Carlsson? 27th. Wilson? 16th.

If Yzerman is out of the playoffs for five years it is a failure. And that's giving Yzerman five years of his own reign, not including the two years we'd already been out of the playoffs under Holland.

If we’re not at least a bubble team by 2022-23 then we flopped epically. There’s no excuse for us to be this bad next year or the year after that with our young guns and the only team with more cap space than us not even existing yet.

If we fail it’s because of Yzerman building the Coyotejets 2.0 instead of Tampa 2.0

No more excuses by 2022-23.

 

[14ari13]

Thing is I hear people talk about the bad contracts, but then they talk about how we shouldn't be spending money signing guys anyway. And these bad contracts we have are bad because the guys signed to them aren't living up to them...which should actually be a positive if your goal is to be really bad and pick high. It can't even be argued that they hampered Yzerman's ability to take on other bad contracts in exchange for picks because it's not like we've been capped out. We've had cap space, Yzerman just hasn't used it.

And Yzerman wasn't starting from zero. I think we can safely say he had a second line and a top4D (Larkin/Bert/Mantha & Hronek) when he came on. He had some interesting pieces in the prospect pipeline (Rasmussen, Zadina, Cholowski, Berrgren, etc.) and some extra picks. He had a coach he must have been fine with, considering he hasn't canned him despite plenty of reasons and opportunities.

It's not a ton, it's not an embarrassment of riches, but it's something where I think five years is plenty of time to build around and compliment to the point of making the playoffs.

There is a huge difference between us and other teams.
We have made playoffs for 20+ years, won 4 cups, had a shot several times.
The price of this success has been that we rarely had a top 20 pick and sometimes not even a top 50.
We have to start from the point that our last top 10 was Martin Lapointe and he developed into a 2nd/3rd line complimentary winger.
We have to remember that even Knuble who was pick in 4th round the same year as Lapointe was traded simply because we had no space to develop him, and he later turned out to be maybe a better player than Lapointe.
Then the cap came and Holland was forced, he did not choose, to give some bad deals.
Anyhow, how many top 10 do Yzerman and Blashill have to work with? 2? 3?
Yzerman and blashill should not try to seriously improve the team until they figure out what they have in Larkin, Mantha, Hronek, bertuzzi and Fabbri, then Zedina, Rasmussen, Svechnikov and other kids who will join the next 2 seasons.
I don't see how they can improve the team with one little step forward without costing us 2 steps back in the future.

 

[Ishad]

No excuses by 2022-2023? We don’t have a true no 1 C and no prospect with that ceiling in the prospect pool. We have no no.1 ld and no prospect with that ceiling in the system. We have no starting goalie and no prospect in they system. So you’re expecting all those issues to be solved in two years while also expecting Seider to be a no. 1 rd in 2 years?

Reality is going to be painful.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

No excuses by 2022-2023? We don’t have a true no 1 C and no prospect with that ceiling in the prospect pool. We have no no.1 ld and no prospect with that ceiling in the system. We have no starting goalie and no prospect in they system. So you’re expecting all those issues to be solved in two years while also expecting Seider to be a no. 1 rd in 2 years?

Reality is going to be painful.

Right, where the hell is all of this talent coming from between now and 2022-23? In 2021-2022 we pick up Seider and I guess Smith (4th liner) full time. In 2022-23 we add Veleno (bottom six, at least as a rookie) and Raymond (breaking in on the 2nd or 3rd line) our 2021 first (perhaps) and maybe Johansson or Tuomisto or another D prospect?

When the f*** does the real talent arrive because I am not seeing many needle movers in that group (apart from maybe Seider and Raymond if things break really well) and I still don't see a second line center.

2022-23 doesn't seem realistic unless we land Wright.

 

[jaster]

Starting to realize a lot of people here are going to be very disappointed in a couple years, are certainly going to be calling for Yzerman's head, and are most likely not going to be satisfied when they don't receive his head. Enter even more frustration and disappointment.

Gonna be a rough ride for some.

 

[Gniwder]

Right, where the hell is all of this talent coming from between now and 2022-23? In 2021-2022 we pick up Seider and I guess Smith (4th liner) full time. In 2022-23 we add Veleno (bottom six, at least as a rookie) and Raymond (breaking in on the 2nd or 3rd line) our 2021 first (perhaps) and maybe Johansson or Tuomisto or another D prospect?

When the f*** does the real talent arrive because I am not seeing many needle movers in that group (apart from maybe Seider and Raymond if things break really well) and I still don't see a second line center.

2022-23 doesn't seem realistic unless we land Wright.

Exactly, and most of those are Holland picks. Aside from Seider, who's progressing at a ridiculous pace, none of his picks will even be playing until 2022. Even with Wright, I can't expect him to be a game breaker in his rookie season.

2022 UFA class is pretty good though, and if Stevie picks up Barkov or Forsberg and a LHD, they could be a borderline playoff team. I think that's the best case scenario.

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

I'm not going to put a hard date on when I expect us to be higher in the standings. I'm just frustrated that we passed up on what I saw as a layup to improve the team in the short-term and medium-term future.

I feel like some people are losing the forest from the trees. Yes cap space and draft picks are nice, but at the end of the day they're both just tools used to acquire good players. It confuses me that some people are so averse to the idea of adding good players to the current roster, as if we're just going to draft that silver bullet prospect in Wright or Lambert who singlehandedly shifts the state of the franchise. There's no magic date where you say, "Let's stop being bad and start being good now." You've got to be willing to acquire pieces over time, and in my opinion this was a missed opportunity to add a Fabbri-like piece that improves us now and in the future.

 

[Winger98]

He had some pieces, for sure. But if you saw Dom L's team-by-team salary cap structure breakdown at The Athletic you would have seen just how much negative value Detroit was saddled with in Yzerman's first year. Just by getting out of Daley, Ericsson, Howard, etc. the Wings jumped up a ton this past year. From way at the bottom, to at least somewhat respectable for contract value.

I think the improvement happens very slowly and then we see a sharp spike in the quality of this team to get to where everybody wants to be. I think Yzerman will add some more talent on undesireable contracts between the trade deadline and opening night for next season and then make his first significant splash in free agency the year after. This should align nicely with the current young talent starting to establish itself.

again, I ask, what does contract value matter if the goal is to lose right now? Guys aren't living up to their deals...and? If the plan is to tank then having a bunch of guys not playing up to their contracts is exactly what you want. I don't see how this should keep Yzerman from putting a team on the ice in three more years that can make the playoffs.

There is a huge difference between us and other teams.
We have made playoffs for 20+ years, won 4 cups, had a shot several times.
The price of this success has been that we rarely had a top 20 pick and sometimes not even a top 50.
We have to start from the point that our last top 10 was Martin Lapointe and he developed into a 2nd/3rd line complimentary winger.
We have to remember that even Knuble who was pick in 4th round the same year as Lapointe was traded simply because we had no space to develop him, and he later turned out to be maybe a better player than Lapointe.
Then the cap came and Holland was forced, he did not choose, to give some bad deals.
Anyhow, how many top 10 do Yzerman and Blashill have to work with? 2? 3?
Yzerman and blashill should not try to seriously improve the team until they figure out what they have in Larkin, Mantha, Hronek, bertuzzi and Fabbri, then Zedina, Rasmussen, Svechnikov and other kids who will join the next 2 seasons.
I don't see how they can improve the team with one little step forward without costing us 2 steps back in the future.

The last time we didn't have a pick in the top50 was...2004. The top20 was 2012. We've had 15 picks in the top50 since 2012. And when the cap came Holland was forced to gut $40+ million in talent and retool, which he did and then had us winning another Cup within in 3 years. Hell, I'm game giving Yzerman the same time frame but he better start working a lot faster.

And how many top10 picks do they need? Seriously, because we've had four already. Or is this something where we are going to just okay being as awful as possible until we draft the next generational type talent at the top of the draft?

Right, where the hell is all of this talent coming from between now and 2022-23? In 2021-2022 we pick up Seider and I guess Smith (4th liner) full time. In 2022-23 we add Veleno (bottom six, at least as a rookie) and Raymond (breaking in on the 2nd or 3rd line) our 2021 first (perhaps) and maybe Johansson or Tuomisto or another D prospect?

When the f*** does the real talent arrive because I am not seeing many needle movers in that group (apart from maybe Seider and Raymond if things break really well) and I still don't see a second line center.

2022-23 doesn't seem realistic unless we land Wright.

Where isn't it coming from?

Bert-Larkin-Raymond
Fabbri- ?-Mantha
Svech-Ras-Veleno
Smith-pearson/?-?

?-Seider
?-Hronek
Cholo-Lindstrom

?
?

Guys on the bench:

Mastrosimon
Berrgren
Tuomisto
Johannson
Grewe
Sebrango
Wallinder

So, we need a couple of left D and a center and goalies. I think we're all hoping either that center spot or the D spot is filled with our pick this year. I don't think it's crazy to think Yzerman should be able to sufficiently fill those spots to push for a playoff spot by the end of his fifth year. And if you don't like Svech/Ras/Veleno, there has to be someone from that bench who should be able to step up and fill out those third line spots. If not, that's not exactly a mark in Yzerman's favor.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

again, I ask, what does contract value matter if the goal is to lose right now? Guys aren't living up to their deals...and? If the plan is to tank then having a bunch of guys not playing up to their contracts is exactly what you want. I don't see how this should keep Yzerman from putting a team on the ice in three more years that can make the playoffs.



The last time we didn't have a pick in the top50 was...2004. The top20 was 2012. We've had 15 picks in the top50 since 2012. And when the cap came Holland was forced to gut $40+ million in talent and retool, which he did and then had us winning another Cup within in 3 years. Hell, I'm game giving Yzerman the same time frame but he better start working a lot faster.

And how many top10 picks do they need? Seriously, because we've had four already. Or is this something where we are going to just okay being as awful as possible until we draft the next generational type talent at the top of the draft?



Where isn't it coming from?

Bert-Larkin-Raymond
Fabbri- ?-Mantha
Svech-Ras-Veleno
Smith-pearson/?-?

?-Seider
?-Hronek
Cholo-Lindstrom

?
?

Guys on the bench:

Mastrosimon
Berrgren
Tuomisto
Johannson
Grewe
Sebrango
Wallinder

So, we need a couple of left D and a center and goalies. I think we're all hoping either that center spot or the D spot is filled with our pick this year. I don't think it's crazy to think Yzerman should be able to sufficiently fill those spots to push for a playoff spot by the end of his fifth year. And if you don't like Svech/Ras/Veleno, there has to be someone from that bench who should be able to step up and fill out those third line spots. If not, that's not exactly a mark in Yzerman's favor.

You forget/trade Zadina or? add Soderblom to the bench.

 

[Gniwder]

I'm not going to put a hard date on when I expect us to be higher in the standings. I'm just frustrated that we passed up on what I saw as a layup to improve the team in the short-term and medium-term future.

I feel like some people are losing the forest from the trees. Yes cap space and draft picks are nice, but at the end of the day they're both just tools used to acquire good players. It confuses me that some people are so averse to the idea of adding good players to the current roster, as if we're just going to draft that silver bullet prospect in Wright or Lambert who singlehandedly shifts the state of the franchise. There's no magic date where you say, "Let's stop being bad and start being good now." You've got to be willing to acquire pieces over time, and in my opinion this was a missed opportunity to add a Fabbri-like piece that improves us now and in the future.

You build a team around star players, not around "good" players. Whether it's by free agency or draft, this team needs a legit 1C before adding middle of the road players.

I won't be disappointed until 2022 offseason. If Stevie doesn't go after Barkov or Forsberg then we know for sure it'll be a long rebuild.

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

You build a team around star players, not around "good" players. Whether it's by free agency or draft, this team needs a legit 1C before adding middle of the road players.

I won't be disappointed until 2022 offseason. If Stevie doesn't go after Barkov or Forsberg then we know for sure it'll be a long rebuild.

Sure, but there's not guarantees that you add star players even if you finish dead last. What if Barkov and Forsberg both just sign extensions?

 

[Tetsuo]

Fine, you also just made the argument on why claiming a guy for 4.25 cap hit for non-competitive years to help your players develop offensively and make the games a lot easier to watch is a good idea. Why not claim Ghost, we can talk about Yzerman hopefully screwing Philly for assets. The rumor is all this shifting is to go after Ekholm or Johnny Hockey, they aren't forking over their first rounder and reduced salary as some are proposing in this thread...

Abdelkader wasn't going to be on the roster, we heard that at the end of the year. What I am pointing out is the money they aren't paying Abdelkader lines up nicely with what we are paying Staal. It seems in order to get the asset for Staal Yzerman needed to buyout Abdelkader, credit to him for figuring that out, Ilitch should have swallowed the year on Abdelkader, especially if we are going to pass on perfectly good pickups for money... With how the taxi squads would work and the fact they were supposedly sending him to Grand Rapids to finish his career the buyout and the additional years was stupid. It was at best a cost saving move. Forgive me, while I understand saving money in the pandemic between the Tigers and Wings the Ilitch sports empire is running at astronomically less cost than when Mike Ilitch was alive. Now we needed to rebuild on both and I understand throwing bad money at things. However, I am just saying I am starting to think Chris is really tight with the purse strings and not a particularly good owner, he is also on the clock in a big way at this point.

We have tons of cap space, we have roster flexibility, I don't understand this move at all. I can only look at it as people being protective of Yzerman, save him somehow working him with money off which again I find a little hard to believe. Maybe we send Ryan back home in some sort of deal. But I want them to answer it, I am a little sick of this operation. I can love Stevie to death and say that objectively. I root for the crest on that sweater before anybody else. It is time to start showing me something. The top 5 HHOF GM was shown the door after two years of a listless rebuild and he at least answered some questions. Time to step up Yzerman, the next 12 days are big and this summer is monumental we need to see some forward momentum or buckle up people we could land an Eichel caliber talent and still be Buffaloed...

I just don't buy into this idea that buying out Abdelkader was a bad idea at all. Even if all of what you said is true, and his buyout was key to making the Staal deal happen from a money perspective, I'd gladly take a 2nd rounder (especially from a team unlikely to make the playoffs) in exchange for the salary we are 'wasting' with a buyout. Isn't taking salary that is going to be wasted on Abby no matter what and turning it into a guy who will actually play (Staal) and a decently high pick the exact kind of asset management you are begging to see?

I'm all for getting a guy like Ghost, but similar to the TJ situation in the off season, it's clear that no team is willing or able to bail another team out without assets coming back. Are we really in a position to appear weak in this crucial point in the season? Stevie didn't sell low an AA last year and now that deal looks fantastic. And this isn't an attempt to cover up for all of Stevie's moves, I've grown quite concerned with the management of our young assets like Svech and Cholo, but I think this kind of thinking is incredibly premature.

 

[ShippinItDaily]

again, I ask, what does contract value matter if the goal is to lose right now? Guys aren't living up to their deals...and? If the plan is to tank then having a bunch of guys not playing up to their contracts is exactly what you want. I don't see how this should keep Yzerman from putting a team on the ice in three more years that can make the playoffs.

Well unless you get lottery and draft year luck you basically are left with a team that is hopeless for the start of the rebuild window, perhaps more so than has been the case for many other rebuilds. So that would suggest to me that you need a little bit longer window to be judged on. I see little reason to get aggressive until you have cleared out most of these anchors. Once the anchors are gone then you can actually be at a level playing field to try and build a roster without significant lottery picks.

 

[jaster]

Having guys playing up to their contracts means they have trade value, which helps a rebuild. You can get a return and/or open up roster spots. When they don't play to their contracts they hamstring a rebuild further. They are locked into your roster. They don't return assets, and take up a roster spot whether you're ok with that or not.

If you want to lose, you lose the way we are now, get guys for cheap who can outperform their contracts and become trade assets while, overall, keeping the overall talent level on the roster low.

Losing by overpaying guys is the exact wrong move. Capital is what you want in a rebuild. Draft capital, trade capital, contract capital, whatever capital. Overpaying is what you do when you are finally competitive.

 

[JoesuffP]

So many bad takes… ya’ll are going to be endlessly disappointed. If you can’t take individual context to each team and their rebuild and judge objectively you are just dumb and should be quiet please

my man is unironically disappointed Yzerman isnt signing people to bad deals that aren’t worth it. I don’t want to be in this world anymore