going forward: J.Hughes vs Stutzle vs Raymond (originally posted Feb 7, 22)

[Pavels Dog]

You guys held a significant lead early in the year when the Sens were stinking up the joint and pissing away their season. And Chychrun has been hurt most of those 10 games.

You guys caught up late in the year when the Wings were stinking up the joint and pissing away their season. And Chychrun is a well-known injury prone player.

 

[swiftwin]

The sens are 4-4-2 in their last 10, so it’s not like adding Chychrun has propelled them to be a great team.

Goalies are barely an excuse. Detroit has sub .900 goaltending from every one of our goalies and we’re right there with the Sens in the standings.

Sub .900?? Big whoop. Try sub .700. Don't even try to use the goaltending excuse on us. We literally just won a game 5-4 in OT where our goalie made a mere 7 saves in 11 shots against the whole game (.636). We literally almost had more goals (5) than saves (7) that whole game.

Not to mention, Chychrun has also been injured, along with Chabot, and Hamonic, and most of the Sens goalies. They're playing their 7th goalie tonight. The fact that they're still .500 in their last 10 despite all this, playing against some very good teams, is impressive.

 

[umma gumma]

You guys caught up late in the year when the Wings were stinking up the joint and pissing away their season. And Chychrun is a well-known injury prone player.

Again, since December 1st, the Sens are .573, while the Wings are .463. That is not late in the year. The debate isn't Chychrun's durability, but that he wasn't available for most of the 10 games you brought up, so your point in that regard was moot.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Again, since December 1st, the Sens are .573, while the Wings are .463. That is not late in the year.

December 1st up until a week before the TDL the Wings were above .500 though. Ottawa accumulated a whopping 6 more points than the Wings in that time.

Surely you realize that your sample size includes the last month, when Detroit decided to throw in the towel and have been below .400 after losing Rasmussen, Bertuzzi, Vrana, Husso, Fabbri and others?

 

[Korpse]

The sens are 4-4-2 in their last 10, so it’s not like adding Chychrun has propelled them to be a great team.

I love that anyone can have an opinion, now matter how underwhelming our knowledge. We all have an opinion that we share confidently.

 

[swiftwin]

Surely you realize that your sample size includes the last month, when Detroit decided to throw in the towel and have been below .400 after losing Rasmussen, Bertuzzi, Vrana, Husso, Fabbri and others?

I'm not sure why you're trying to brag about this. This is not a brag. This just means the Wings performance was based on expiring veterans, not their young core.

If the Sens had decided to "throw in the towel" and be sellers at the TDL, who would they have traded? Watson? He's a 4th line player. Talbot? Backup goalie. The Sens had nobody to sell, because 90% of the team is the young core and rookies who are going to improve and make the team better in the future. Detroit doesn't have that.

 

[goonybird]

The Detroit Red Wings (fans) have entered the game

 

[Pavels Dog]

I'm not sure why you're trying to brag about this. This is not a brag. This just means the Wings performance was based on expiring veterans, not their young core.

Who said anyone about brag? It's just a fact that Detroit's been hit by injuries and also decided to gain future assets at the TDL instead of clinging to a fool's hope of getting into the playoffs.
It doesn't indicate any kind of trend, nor are guys like Rasmussen, Fabbri and Husso "expiring veterans".

The Sens had nobody to sell, because 90% of the team is the young core and rookies who are going to improve and make the team better in the future. Detroit doesn't have that.

Detroit doesn't have that? Are you for real?

 

[RedHawkDown]

The Detroit Red Wings (fans) have entered the game

It’s always funny when Ottawa fans think we are trying to insinuate that Detroit is good. We’re not. We’re trash. We just are realists, whereas Ottawa fans seem to be convinced the entire roster is full of all stars. I’m just pointing out the ludicrous nature of that.

Chychrun being injured recently doesn’t change the point. The Sens have 35 games from a 0.900 Talbot, 28 from a .901 Forsberg, and then a bunch of games from various other goalies at various save %. It isn’t dissimilar from Detroits situation with .890-.899 between all our goalies. But you don’t see us sitting around claiming goalies are the reason we’re bad. We’re just bad.

All I’m saying is: the sens have a lot of great young players. They are just overhyped by the fans by about one level higher each. Tkachuk is a good 1st line player, not an elite one. Stutzle is a great 1C, not a franchise one. DBCat is a good top 6F, not an elite 1st liner. Chabot/Sanderson are good top4D , not elite top2D. If you look at it that way - 2 great 1st liners, 2 solid top6ers, 2-3 very good top4D, then that combined with injuries and shoddy goaltending makes sense for the record the Sens have. That’s it. Compare that to the franchise C, elite f, top2D descriptions you guys go on about and that’s where the discrepancy is.

And I also said nothing about the future of these teams. It’s true Ottawa relies more on young players production for their scoring and success. That’s great. All of these guys might become those super elite pieces, and if so Ottawa will be a powerhouse. Just like Raymond might become a Marner and Edvinsson another Hedman. But they’re not that now, so we suck, and you also suck. If they were, these two teams wouldn’t suck. That’s it. That’s the point.

 

[goonybird]

It’s always funny when Ottawa fans think we are trying to insinuate that Detroit is good. We’re not. We’re trash. We just are realists, whereas Ottawa fans seem to be convinced the entire roster is full of all stars. I’m just pointing out the ludicrous nature of that.

Chychrun being injured recently doesn’t change the point. The Sens have 35 games from a 0.900 Talbot, 28 from a .901 Forsberg, and then a bunch of games from various other goalies at various save %. It isn’t dissimilar from Detroits situation with .890-.899 between all our goalies. But you don’t see us sitting around claiming goalies are the reason we’re bad. We’re just bad.

All I’m saying is: the sens have a lot of great young players. They are just overhyped by the fans by about one level higher each. Tkachuk is a good 1st line player, not an elite one. Stutzle is a great 1C, not a franchise one. DBCat is a good top 6F, not an elite 1st liner. Chabot/Sanderson are good top4D , not elite top2D. If you look at it that way - 2 great 1st liners, 2 solid top6ers, 2-3 very good top4D, then that combined with injuries and shoddy goaltending makes sense for the record the Sens have. That’s it. Compare that to the franchise C, elite f, top2D descriptions you guys go on about and that’s where the discrepancy is.

And I also said nothing about the future of these teams. It’s true Ottawa relies more on young players production for their scoring and success. That’s great. All of these guys might become those super elite pieces, and if so Ottawa will be a powerhouse. Just like Raymond might become a Marner and Edvinsson another Hedman. But they’re not that now, so we suck, and you also suck. If they were, these two teams wouldn’t suck. That’s it. That’s the point.

Nah I'm a Devils fan and refused to take the bait a month or two ago. Just enjoying the royal rumble that's going on.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Nah I'm a Devils fan and refused to take the bait a month or two ago. Just enjoying the royal rumble that's going on.

Very fair. Not really a useful convo in here.

 

[Mrb1p]

At some point, fans have to realize that if you actually have all these super elite pieces, your record shouldn’t be what it is.

Like for Detroit, we suck because our only truly elite player is Seider. Larkin is a decent 1C, great 2C, and Raymond right now is a good 2W. We have no other true top 4 defensemen and pretty much zero top line players apart from Larkin. So we suck.

But sens apparently have:
Sanderson, who’s at Seiders level (go look at the poll and what sens fans are saying in that thread)
Chabot, another top 2 D
Stutzle, a top 5 NHL forward (if he’s supposedly at Hughes level, then this is what he’d be)
Debrincat, a top line sniper
Tkachuk, elite top line PWF
Chychrun, another top 3 D
Pinto, another top 6F

If all of the above are the true value/talent level of these players, why are the Sens 3 points ahead of Detroit with 1 more game played?

It does not add up.

Amen brother.

I also think youre being very conserative on the detroit evaluations.

 

[TBF1972]

goalies:

Forsberg
Talbot
Hellberg
Sogaard
Mandolese
Ferguson
Merilainen

the devils dressed 7 goalies last season and all were great

Name	GP	Record	GA/G	SV%
Mackenzie Blackwood	25​	9-10-4	3.39​	0.892​
Nico Daws	25​	10-11-1	3.11​	0.893​
Jon Gillies	19​	3-10-1	3.76​	0.885​
Jonathan Bernier	10​	4-4-1	3.06​	0.902​
Andrew Hammond	7​	1-5-1	4.66​	0.86​
Akira Schmid	6​	0-4-0	4.83​	0.833​
Scott Wedgewood	3​	0-2-1	3.19​	0.88​

my absolute favourite was gillies, who was 3-0, when he got the goal support from the skaters.

 

[swiftwin]

the devils dressed 7 goalies last season and all were great

Name	GP	Record	GA/G	SV%
Mackenzie Blackwood	25​	9-10-4	3.39​	0.892​
Nico Daws	25​	10-11-1	3.11​	0.893​
Jon Gillies	19​	3-10-1	3.76​	0.885​
Jonathan Bernier	10​	4-4-1	3.06​	0.902​
Andrew Hammond	7​	1-5-1	4.66​	0.86​
Akira Schmid	6​	0-4-0	4.83​	0.833​
Scott Wedgewood	3​	0-2-1	3.19​	0.88​

my absolute favourite was gillies, who was 3-0, when he got the goal support from the skaters.

Sounds like the Sens this season. Talbot getting a W last week despite having .636 was pretty hilarious.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

It’s always funny when Ottawa fans think we are trying to insinuate that Detroit is good. We’re not. We’re trash. We just are realists, whereas Ottawa fans seem to be convinced the entire roster is full of all stars. I’m just pointing out the ludicrous nature of that.

Chychrun being injured recently doesn’t change the point. The Sens have 35 games from a 0.900 Talbot, 28 from a .901 Forsberg, and then a bunch of games from various other goalies at various save %. It isn’t dissimilar from Detroits situation with .890-.899 between all our goalies. But you don’t see us sitting around claiming goalies are the reason we’re bad. We’re just bad.

All I’m saying is: the sens have a lot of great young players. They are just overhyped by the fans by about one level higher each. Tkachuk is a good 1st line player, not an elite one. Stutzle is a great 1C, not a franchise one. DBCat is a good top 6F, not an elite 1st liner. Chabot/Sanderson are good top4D , not elite top2D. If you look at it that way - 2 great 1st liners, 2 solid top6ers, 2-3 very good top4D, then that combined with injuries and shoddy goaltending makes sense for the record the Sens have. That’s it. Compare that to the franchise C, elite f, top2D descriptions you guys go on about and that’s where the discrepancy is.

And I also said nothing about the future of these teams. It’s true Ottawa relies more on young players production for their scoring and success. That’s great. All of these guys might become those super elite pieces, and if so Ottawa will be a powerhouse. Just like Raymond might become a Marner and Edvinsson another Hedman. But they’re not that now, so we suck, and you also suck. If they were, these two teams wouldn’t suck. That’s it. That’s the point.

Goalie injuries are not the only reason Ottawa wasn't a playoff team this year. The biggest reason for that is losing Josh Norris, who was our 1C when he got injured and was on pace for 40 goals last season. You don't think adding Josh Norris, a 1st line center (would likely be 1A or 1B with Stützle) could make up the difference between the Sens and the playoffs?

 

[RedWingzz]

It’s always funny when Ottawa fans think we are trying to insinuate that Detroit is good. We’re not. We’re trash. We just are realists, whereas Ottawa fans seem to be convinced the entire roster is full of all stars. I’m just pointing out the ludicrous nature of that.

Chychrun being injured recently doesn’t change the point. The Sens have 35 games from a 0.900 Talbot, 28 from a .901 Forsberg, and then a bunch of games from various other goalies at various save %. It isn’t dissimilar from Detroits situation with .890-.899 between all our goalies. But you don’t see us sitting around claiming goalies are the reason we’re bad. We’re just bad.

All I’m saying is: the sens have a lot of great young players. They are just overhyped by the fans by about one level higher each. Tkachuk is a good 1st line player, not an elite one. Stutzle is a great 1C, not a franchise one. DBCat is a good top 6F, not an elite 1st liner. Chabot/Sanderson are good top4D , not elite top2D. If you look at it that way - 2 great 1st liners, 2 solid top6ers, 2-3 very good top4D, then that combined with injuries and shoddy goaltending makes sense for the record the Sens have. That’s it. Compare that to the franchise C, elite f, top2D descriptions you guys go on about and that’s where the discrepancy is.

And I also said nothing about the future of these teams. It’s true Ottawa relies more on young players production for their scoring and success. That’s great. All of these guys might become those super elite pieces, and if so Ottawa will be a powerhouse. Just like Raymond might become a Marner and Edvinsson another Hedman. But they’re not that now, so we suck, and you also suck. If they were, these two teams wouldn’t suck. That’s it. That’s the point.

That's exactly it lol. Wings fans admit we suck and have a lot of work to do, although we also know we have tons of young talent, and a lot more on the way.

Sens fans think they have a roster full of all-stars.

Check the standings lol we are legitimately 2 points back with a game in hand. Both teams "suck" in terms of on-ice performance, yet one fanbase continues to live in denial. It's funny.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Goalie injuries are not the only reason Ottawa wasn't a playoff team this year. The biggest reason for that is losing Josh Norris, who was our 1C when he got injured and was on pace for 40 goals last season. You don't think adding Josh Norris, a 1st line center (would likely be 1A or 1B with Stützle) could make up the difference between the Sens and the playoffs?

No, I don’t think adding a 55 pt player with a single good season and 3 pts in 8 games this year would have put them over the top, and the fact that you are asserting he is a definitive 1C is essentially proof of my point.

 

[Korpse]

No, I don’t think adding a 55 pt player with a single good season and 3 pts in 8 games this year would have put them over the top, and the fact that you are asserting he is a definitive 1C is essentially proof of my point.

Any chance you could provide an analysis beyond looking at hockey DB. I'm interested to hear why Norris wasn't a big loss for the team.

I don't know how you can look back at this thread and think that fans are overhyping Stutzle. All he has done is met and in some cases exceeded expectations. If anything it's a great example of how others have undersold him. Same thing when you look back at the thread for his extension, you had posters calling him a '58 point player' because their analysis doesn't go beyond looking at hockey db. Again, everyone has an opinion that they share confidently.

 

[Masked]

My word must be worthless and you must be lazy.

Those Devils unis in Rockies colours are outstanding.

Assen na yo!

 

[Mrb1p]

Goalie injuries are not the only reason Ottawa wasn't a playoff team this year. The biggest reason for that is losing Josh Norris, who was our 1C when he got injured and was on pace for 40 goals last season. You don't think adding Josh Norris, a 1st line center (would likely be 1A or 1B with Stützle) could make up the difference between the Sens and the playoffs?

I mean you guys have a self proclaimed top 5 player in the league at 1C, what gives ?

 

[Korpse]

I mean you guys have a self proclaimed top 5 player in the league at 1C, what gives ?

Who called Stutzle a top 5 player? I haven't seen it, it's definitely not a sentiment shared among the fan base.

 

[Mrb1p]

Who called Stutzle a top 5 player? I haven't seen it, it's definitely not a sentiment shared among the fan base.

You guys think he's better than Jack Hughes..

 

[NHL Fanatik]

Those Devils unis in Rockies colours are outstanding.

Assen na yo!

ありがとうございます　！^_^

 

[Korpse]

You guys think he's better than Jack Hughes..

You are making the assumption that they believe Jack Hughes is a top 5 player. I'm not even sure many sens fans believe Stutzle is outright better, rather a similar caliber. A lot of the discussion around Stutzle in this thread has been based on the fact that in terms of experience he is a year behind and has kept up with Hughes. I think you are struggling with comprehension.

Similar to you quoting a number of posters who said 'not Brady Tkachuk' and claiming they said 'brady Tkachuk'.

 

[Mrb1p]

You are making the assumption that they believe Jack Hughes is a top 5 player. I'm not even sure many sens fans believe Stutzle is outright better, rather a similar caliber. A lot of the discussion around Stutzle in this thread has been based on the fact that in terms of experience he is a year behind and has kept up with Hughes. I think you are struggling with comprehension.

Similar to you quoting a number of posters who said 'not Brady Tkachuk' and claiming they said 'brady Tkachuk'.

Buddy there's 140 persons, notably Sens and German people that voted for Stutzle, like 5% of the people don't fall in either category.

Jack Hughes is universally thought to be at least top 10ish, if Stutzle is better, that gets him very, very close to the top 5.