Post-Game Talk: Gobble gobble

[Pavels Dog]

They are clinging to the last wild card spot by less than a point. Boy I was way off. I guess you knew all along that their goaltending would prop them up enough to hold the tie breaker that separates them from being on the outside looking in. I think it might be a little early to celebrate their clinch. They are one pulled groin from a lottery pick.

Don't just look at the standings. They can be deceiving. Some teams are not playing great but still picking up a lot of points (Ottawa). They are likely to fall in the standings if they don't pick it up. We on the other hand are playing great lately but not winning as many games as we should. As long as we keep playing like this we will be fine however. Last game was our best of the season and the continuation of a positive trend that has been going on for 10 games or more. You are not paying attention if you're not seeing improvements.

 

[johnnyarmstrong]

I genuinely believe that we are better than Boston. I frankly don't think it's that close. Tampa and Detroit are close. We are MUCH better than Ottawa. Ottawa will fall off.

 

[Dotter]

Yet we're in the same position as last year and the team has started to play better. This team will do exactly the same as last year and lose in the first round because of personnel.

Wouldn't it be cool if Wings drafted a Larkin version of a defenseman with the 15th overall in the 2016 entry draft!

 

[Heaton]

Wouldn't it be cool if Wings drafted a Larkin version of a defenseman with the 15th overall in the 2016 entry draft!

it would be the thing that gets this team to the next level.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Wings get bumped down to 8th place and Boston move up to 6th place. Thanks Mrazek!

Right because 22 games played as of now determines where we finish at the end of the year.

 

[chances14]

it would be the thing that gets this team to the next level.

looks like they have their goalie and center of the future. just missing that defensman

 

[Heaton]

looks like they have their goalie and center of the future. just missing that defensman

Holland doesn't seem to draft for need though, so I'm not holding my breath. The other issue is that we've seen Holland be able to draft/acquire goalies and forwards, we've never seen Holland draft/develop/acquire the type of defensemen that we need. Obviously we've always had Lidstrom during his career, but there was zero plan for when Lidstrom retired. And I'm not talking about getting another Lidstrom.

 

[Dotter]

Holland doesn't seem to draft for need though, so I'm not holding my breath. The other issue is that we've seen Holland be able to draft/acquire goalies and forwards, we've never seen Holland draft/develop/acquire the type of defensemen that we need. Obviously we've always had Lidstrom during his career, but there was zero plan for when Lidstrom retired. And I'm not talking about getting another Lidstrom.

Well obviously they didn't draft Brendan Smith and Jacob Kindl expecting them to both be busts.

Prior to that they drafted Kronwall (29th) and Jiri Fischer (25th)

And that's it. Also it should be noted that Kenny traded 1st rounders away like candy before the cap era and has, on a few occasions, traded down for later picks at draft.

So looking at their draft history, Ken Holland has about a 50% success rate at drafting top pairing defenseman in the 1st round.

 

[Heaton]

Well obviously they didn't draft Brendan Smith and Jacob Kindl expecting them to both be busts.

Prior to that they drafted Kronwall (29th) and Jiri Fischer (25th)

And that's it. Also it should be noted that Kenny traded 1st rounders away like candy before the cap era and has, on a few occasions, traded down for later picks at draft.

So looking at their draft history, Ken Holland has about a 50% success rate at drafting top pairing defenseman in the 1st round.

And if every single top pairing defensemen in the league was drafted in the 1st round, you'd have a point. I'd guess more than half of the top 10 defensemen in the league were drafted in the 2nd round or later.

 

[Dotter]

And if every single top pairing defensemen in the league was drafted in the 1st round, you'd have a point. I'd guess more than half of the top 10 defensemen in the league were drafted in the 2nd round or later.

I think we both agree on the same thing; Detroit Red Wings under-achieve at drafting top pairing defenseman.

Ken Hollands philosophy has been drafting the best available player instead of "need". I can't really condemn him for that as Wings might not have one of the top prospect pools in the league had he swayed off track, while still not having a worthy defenseman to play top minutes... because obviously they are subpar at drafting dmen.

The only way I can see Ken fixing the problem is hiring better scouts. Where do you find these scouts and will they be better? I don't know...

I say this with tongue-in-cheek, but I am serious. Ken Holland needs to try and steal some of Nashville's brain trust. Not sure the ins and outs, but if there is a way, he better jump on it.

 

[Pavels Dog]

And if every single top pairing defensemen in the league was drafted in the 1st round, you'd have a point. I'd guess more than half of the top 10 defensemen in the league were drafted in the 2nd round or later.

A lot of the best ones are drafted in the first round or even top 10. Doughty, Karlsson, OEL, Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk, Jones, Ekblad, Macdonagh, Fowler etc.
No one drafts a player in the 3rd or 4th round thinking they can become a top 10 d-man. Maybe Holland's mistake was not trusting blind luck a little more and going for those long-shot late round steals, but you can't say Kindl and Smith weren't part of a plan for post-Lidstrom life. You can count Ericsson, Kronwall and Suter to that plan as well. To be perfectly honest our plan to replace Rafalski was actually more lacking. Kronwall has handled #1 duties admirably. But our #2 position has been sorely lacking ever since Rafalski left.

 

[Dotter]

A lot of the best ones are drafted in the first round or even top 10. Doughty, Karlsson, OEL, Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk, Jones, Ekblad, Macdonagh, Fowler etc.
No one drafts a player in the 3rd or 4th round thinking they can become a top 10 d-man. Maybe Holland's mistake was not trusting blind luck a little more and going for those long-shot late round steals, but you can't say Kindl and Smith weren't part of a plan for post-Lidstrom life. You can count Ericsson, Kronwall and Suter to that plan as well. To be perfectly honest our plan to replace Rafalski was actually more lacking. Kronwall has handled #1 duties admirably. But our #2 position has been sorely lacking ever since Rafalski left.

And lets not forget had Jiri Fischer not had his heart condition, and/or if Hakan Andersson's favorite player was still available with the 97th pick in 2004, we might not even be having this conversation right now.

 

[InjuredChoker]

And lets not forget had Jiri Fischer not had his heart condition, and/or if Hakan Andersson's favorite player was still available with the 97th pick in 2004, we might not even be having this conversation right now.

or karlsson had fallen to us back in '08..

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

A lot of the best ones are drafted in the first round or even top 10. Doughty, Karlsson, OEL, Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk, Jones, Ekblad, Macdonagh, Fowler etc.
No one drafts a player in the 3rd or 4th round thinking they can become a top 10 d-man. Maybe Holland's mistake was not trusting blind luck a little more and going for those long-shot late round steals, but you can't say Kindl and Smith weren't part of a plan for post-Lidstrom life. You can count Ericsson, Kronwall and Suter to that plan as well. To be perfectly honest our plan to replace Rafalski was actually more lacking. Kronwall has handled #1 duties admirably. But our #2 position has been sorely lacking ever since Rafalski left.

If Ericsson was part of the post-Lidstrom plan, Holland is an idiot. And I actually like Ericsson and think he gets a lot of criticism he doesn't deserve. But he's a converted forward taken dead last in the draft. I don't think anyone believed he'd be a #1 guy.

Suter shows just how unprepared Holland was for the post-Lidstrom era. Can you remember a time where Holland got into a massive bidding war for one of the most coveted free agents in the offseason? It was all or nothing and turned out to be nothing.

Rafalski I don't blame him too much for because it seemed like Rafi's retirement was a total surprise. Maybe he gave Holland the heads up earlier in the season but it didn't really seem like it.

Stuart leaving was another hit to the blueline that was a known factor but didn't seem to be prepared for.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I think we both agree on the same thing; Detroit Red Wings under-achieve at drafting top pairing defenseman.

Ken Hollands philosophy has been drafting the best available player instead of "need". I can't really condemn him for that as Wings might not have one of the top prospect pools in the league had he swayed off track, while still not having a worthy defenseman to play top minutes... because obviously they are subpar at drafting dmen.

The only way I can see Ken fixing the problem is hiring better scouts. Where do you find these scouts and will they be better? I don't know...

I say this with tongue-in-cheek, but I am serious. Ken Holland needs to try and steal some of Nashville's brain trust. Not sure the ins and outs, but if there is a way, he better jump on it.

He could also try and trade for them, but seems like too conservative of a GM for that. I don't know enough about the Wings prospects but my fear is that if our talent pool is as deep as everyone says, Holland's reluctance to trade will cause us to lose prospects for nothing very soon.

So far I think it's only been Nestrasil and Ferraro. It looks like Nestrasil might stick as an NHL player, Ferraro remains to be seen. It's never good to lose an NHL capable player for nothing but those two don't seem like huge losses. My concern is that more players get added to that list when they could've been packaged and dealt.

 

[chances14]

If Ericsson was part of the post-Lidstrom plan, Holland is an idiot. And I actually like Ericsson and think he gets a lot of criticism he doesn't deserve. But he's a converted forward taken dead last in the draft. I don't think anyone believed he'd be a #1 guy.

Suter shows just how unprepared Holland was for the post-Lidstrom era. Can you remember a time where Holland got into a massive bidding war for one of the most coveted free agents in the offseason? It was all or nothing and turned out to be nothing.

Rafalski I don't blame him too much for because it seemed like Rafi's retirement was a total surprise. Maybe he gave Holland the heads up earlier in the season but it didn't really seem like it.

Stuart leaving was another hit to the blueline that was a known factor but didn't seem to be prepared for.

yea the sutter fiasco really caught them off guard. i believe that they felt for sure they were getting him so they didn't have a plan B

They probably also thought that at least one of smith or kindl would have turned out at least halfway decent. instead they are both battling for the 6th dman spot for one of the worst defense corps in the league

I wish holland would go outside of his comfort zone at least one time and use his glut of forwards to bring in a top pairing defensman

 

[Dotter]

or karlsson had fallen to us back in '08..

I don't know the inside story of Karlsson. Just remember Hakan was balls out for Alex Edler and the info leaked to 'Nucks 5 picks earlier when they swiped him out right from underneath us. Wings 1st draft that year was 97th so their hands were tied.

Wings took Franzen as their "plan B" that year. Which was a big reason why they won the cup in 2008, the year Franzen went full beast mode. So not all bad came out of it.

I wish holland would go outside of his comfort zone at least one time and use his glut of forwards to bring in a top pairing defensman

Lol, how often does middling packages return top pairing defensemen? It's unheard of. Why do you expect Ken Holland to pull off the impossible? Teams don't trade young top pairing defensemen for scraps.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I don't know the inside story of Karlsson. Just remember Hakan was balls out for Alex Edler and the info leaked to 'Nucks 5 picks earlier when they swiped him out right from underneath us. Wings 1st draft that year was 97th so their hands were tied.

Wings took Franzen as their "plan B" that year. Which was a big reason why they won the cup in 2008, the year Franzen went full beast mode. So not all bad came out of it.

i can't find the source as older posts were deleted on HF but it was interview with håkan who was praying that karlsson would fall all the way for red wings pick. and immediately when the senators traded up, he knew they were going to take karlsson (they apparently have/had a scout who's a good friend with håkan).

but the senators said they traded up because they thought someone was going to take him before their original pick. so he probably wouldn't have fallen even close to the wings anyway who picked #30 that year.

i remember the edler story too. still pissed about it. franzen might have/ probably would have fallen even further and would've been available even with wings next pick.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Nah, you can't cherry pick like that. I'm by no means a Quincey fan, but saying we traded away a draft pick and choosing the best possible outcomes as the reason why it's bad isn't the best way to argue against it. We could've just as easily picked someone who never plays a game in the NHL.

In this context, you can a little. Several great players/prospects were available in that position and instead traded the puck for a fringe middle pairing defenseman, who most of his tenure here, played like a fringe bottom pairing defenseman, and got an extension for it.

 

[Pavels Dog]

If Ericsson was part of the post-Lidstrom plan, Holland is an idiot. And I actually like Ericsson and think he gets a lot of criticism he doesn't deserve. But he's a converted forward taken dead last in the draft. I don't think anyone believed he'd be a #1 guy.

Me neither. Being "part of the plan" doesn't mean Holland thought Kindl, Smith and Ericsson would all turn into generational #1 d-men. Kronwall was always going to be the #1, maybe #2 if we landed Suter. What we needed was guys that replaced Rafalski, Stuart and Kronwall in the #2-4 slots. And I bet Holland thought at least one of Kindl and Smith would be able to step in there.

People somewhat overstate how far away from a solid defense we have been. If just ONE of Smith and Kindl had turned into a legit top-4 d-man we would not have been bad at all. What killed us that first year after Lids retired wasn't the Kronwall-Ericsson pairing. It was the other two pairings, until Dekeyser came in and gave us an okay 2nd pairing again.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Me neither. Being "part of the plan" doesn't mean Holland thought Kindl, Smith and Ericsson would all turn into generational #1 d-men. Kronwall was always going to be the #1, maybe #2 if we landed Suter. What we needed was guys that replaced Rafalski, Stuart and Kronwall in the #2-4 slots. And I bet Holland thought at least one of Kindl and Smith would be able to step in there.

People somewhat overstate how far away from a solid defense we have been. If just ONE of Smith and Kindl had turned into a legit top-4 d-man we would not have been bad at all. What killed us that first year after Lids retired wasn't the Kronwall-Ericsson pairing. It was the other two pairings, until Dekeyser came in and gave us an okay 2nd pairing again.

i don't think ericsson even started that season with kronwall. at least that's how i recall it. i think it was ian white. even lashoff played some games there with kronwall on top pair

 

[Pavels Dog]

i don't think ericsson even started that season with kronwall. at least that's how i recall it. i think it was ian white. even lashoff played some games there with kronwall on top pair

That may be true actually. I mostly remember our 3rd pairing being a guaranteed goal against everytime they stepped out on the ice, and the 2nd pairing not being much better. Kronwall, just like Z, Dats and Howard, carried us kicking and screaming into the playoffs that year. Regardless of how Kronner is playing this year, he has done better as a replacement to Lids than could have been expected.

 

[Dotter]

I had really high hopes on Xavier Ouellet until it was noticeable his skating wasn't ever going to improve. I was never on the Sproul hype train. This year Marchenko has turned out better than I ever expected.

No #1s, but Wings do have a couple of bottom 4 depth players. Finding that #1 is going to be extremely difficult without top 5 picks. And if Ken Holland did get a top 5 pick and uses it to pick a winger, I'd be first to admit he needs to go. Centers are important, but unless that kid is projected to be the next Crosby, I want a defensman.

 

[InjuredChoker]

That may be true actually. I mostly remember our 3rd pairing being a guaranteed goal against everytime they stepped out on the ice, and the 2nd pairing not being much better. Kronwall, just like Z, Dats and Howard, carried us kicking and screaming into the playoffs that year. Regardless of how Kronner is playing this year, he has done better as a replacement to Lids than could have been expected.

i agree, he was very good 2012-14. i think he started to fall off sometime last season, around the 2nd half. ericsson regressing didn't help either.

he had some early struggles during the lockout season iirc, i remember too many goals where he just backed off from a forward and screened howard when the forward shot the puck.

i'd also add babs to that list. he made some MAJOR head scratching roster/line construction moves that season (cleary-dats-abby, REALLY???) but out third line to start the season was cleary-abdelkader-mursak. lashoff played games on top pair. smith and quincey was the 2nd pair. among other things.

now when i think about it a bit more. i blame babcock on abdelkader contract. if he never put abdelkader on top line with datsyuk, this 7 yr extension doesn't happen. and he conveniently left just before it happened.

I had really high hopes on Xavier Ouellet until it was noticeable his skating wasn't ever going to improve. I was never on the Sproul hype train. This year Marchenko has turned out better than I ever expected.

No #1s, but Wings do have a couple of bottom 4 depth players. Finding that #1 is going to be extremely difficult without top 5 picks. And if Ken Holland did get a top 5 pick and uses it to pick a winger, I'd be first to admit he needs to go. Centers are important, but unless that kid is projected to be the next Crosby, I want a defensman.

i liked ouellet as long-term 2nd pairing guy but likely no more. i still think he can be solid NHLer.

sproul was always a boom/bust for me. might end up top pairing guy (not probably going to happen anymore), might end up being borderline NHLer.

 

[aar000n]

Right because 22 games played as of now determines where we finish at the end of the year.

oh look Boston won so we are 2 points behind with the same amount of games played. I guess points do matter.