Goaltending Thread: Lehner vs. Anderson?

[Sun God Nika]

Just putting this here Craig Anderson didn't really get a fixed role on any team until he was 26/27, when he was Lehners age he was on waivers..

 

[bert]

You gotta think Minnesota has atleast made a phone call.

Backstrom would be good insulation for Lehner and necessary to move if they deal for a goalie. If Ottawa could get a 1st and Backstrom for Anderson id be all over it.

It would likely be a 15 to 20 pick which in this draft is a hell of a player. Not to mention would probably vault Ottawa into a chance for a top 5 pick.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Lebrun posted that Ottawa is looking to add a forward to help the team move up the standings

Until the team gives up on making the playoffs Anderson isn't going anywhere

Sure you maximize the return by trading Anderson sooner rather than later but you weaken the goaltending position to the point where I'd be worried about becoming the Oilers: I want this team to aim for the playoffs and for management to do everything they can to support that goal

 

[Tuna99]

I want Lehner to be the stud goalie he is projected to be - I want him to be the wall and the goalie that lead this team to Cup contention, I love watching him play.

But the truth is Lehner is now nowhere near consistent enough to be the starter, if your a Sens fan you have to admit that by his play this season he won't be ready to start until 2017 (at the earliest)

Andy all the way!

 

[Tuna99]

Lebrun posted that Ottawa is looking to add a forward to help the team move up the standings

Until the team gives up on making the playoffs Anderson isn't going anywhere

Sure you maximize the return by trading Anderson sooner rather than later but you weaken the goaltending position to the point where I'd be worried about becoming the Oilers: I want this team to aim for the playoffs and for management to do everything they can to support that goal

Is this for real? Didn't Murray learn anything from the Hemsky trade - to little to late, what a stupid move if we add a forward now when it is pretty clear we aren't making the playoffs.

It's almost as if Murray makes promises to Melnyk that Ottawa is a playoff team and when they are behind Murray makes a stupid trade or FA signing and when it doesn't work out he knows he can always fire the coach.

We should be moving contracts out and giving games to Grant, Puempel, Prince and the young players we are developing

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

You gotta think Minnesota has atleast made a phone call.

Backstrom would be good insulation for Lehner and necessary to move if they deal for a goalie. If Ottawa could get a 1st and Backstrom for Anderson id be all over it.

It would likely be a 15 to 20 pick which in this draft is a hell of a player. Not to mention would probably vault Ottawa into a chance for a top 5 pick.

Maybe the Backstrom of two years ago, maybe. But he's been dreadful all year for Minnesota and that's coming off a season last year where he was awful too.

He's about as done as it gets for goalies and if it wasn't for Harding smashing his foot on a wall, he'd have probably been forced into retirement. You're essentially trading a late first round pick for a goalie having a huge year with three years left on a very cap friendly deal.

I don't move Anderson unless something significant is coming back. Lehner is too uncertain to move him otherwise. He's also one of the locker room's few veteran players whose actual skills aren't "questionable".

 

[Micklebot]

Lebrun posted that Ottawa is looking to add a forward to help the team move up the standings

Until the team gives up on making the playoffs Anderson isn't going anywhere

Sure you maximize the return by trading Anderson sooner rather than later but you weaken the goaltending position to the point where I'd be worried about becoming the Oilers: I want this team to aim for the playoffs and for management to do everything they can to support that goal

To be more accurate, he said bolster the offense. That can be done by adding a forward or PMD.

Here's the actual link: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/33877/senators-looking-for-trade-to-boost-offense

Yandle is being shoped, though I doubt we are willing to pay the price. Could the Yotes move Smith or Dubnyk and Yandle for Anderson +? Would we even be interested in that?

 

[bert]

Lebrun posted that Ottawa is looking to add a forward to help the team move up the standings

Until the team gives up on making the playoffs Anderson isn't going anywhere

Sure you maximize the return by trading Anderson sooner rather than later but you weaken the goaltending position to the point where I'd be worried about becoming the Oilers: I want this team to aim for the playoffs and for management to do everything they can to support that goal

Well this team isn't making the playoffs, they simply have showed that they are not a playoff team all season. Horrible D core and lack of scoring = bad team. Anderson is the only reason that they can even see a playoffs spot. He will probably not be playing at this level when/if this team gets to where they actually can compete. I am tired of giving up assets for nothing like that third round pick for Hemsky which right now is the 69th pick in a very good draft only to simply worsen the draft position.

Management needs to face the facts this team is bad (young), this draft is good do the math. You know which team sat in this position for years and has played 7 playoff games in 12 years. The Toronto Maple leafs, the sens are probably in the worst possible position to be in. No where close to the botton and no where close to a playoff spot its horrid and its how Franchise's spin out of control.

I have been a Murray supporter as I think he was put into a terrible position in terms of asset management by Muckler but the last two seasons have me scratching my head. He has drafted well and made moves that he had to unfortunately (forced hand, Spezza Alfie etc) and in hind sight its 20/20 ie the Bishop trade. The massive regression of every player on the Calder cup team Smith, Greening, Cowen, Gryba, Lehner. But the Phillips contract and going for it last year and this are huge blunders. I don't think they are looking at this team really for what it is, a young inexperienced group lacking top end talent.

 

[bert]

Maybe the Backstrom of two years ago, maybe. But he's been dreadful all year for Minnesota and that's coming off a season last year where he was awful too.

He's about as done as it gets for goalies and if it wasn't for Harding smashing his foot on a wall, he'd have probably been forced into retirement. You're essentially trading a late first round pick for a goalie having a huge year with three years left on a very cap friendly deal.

I don't move Anderson unless something significant is coming back. Lehner is too uncertain to move him otherwise. He's also one of the locker room's few veteran players whose actual skills aren't "questionable".

A first plus moving down in the standings is very significant. The point in Backstrom is securing the first round pick which wont be a late one it will be 15 to 20. At 15 to 20 you are getting a player this year. Minnesota has to move him if they trade for a goalie. I know Backstrom is all but done the point is to try and build a real contender instead of this pretender. Backstrom can split time with Lehner, so he doesn't have to take the massive majority of the starts at his young career.

 

[Micklebot]

Is this for real? Didn't Murray learn anything from the Hemsky trade - to little to late, what a stupid move if we add a forward now when it is pretty clear we aren't making the playoffs.

It's almost as if Murray makes promises to Melnyk that Ottawa is a playoff team and when they are behind Murray makes a stupid trade or FA signing and when it doesn't work out he knows he can always fire the coach.

We should be moving contracts out and giving games to Grant, Puempel, Prince and the young players we are developing

The hemsky trade was at the deadline, 20 games later in the season. Not only that, but it it moved us up 4 pts from our pace at the time. If memory serves, we were farther out of a playoff spot then than we are now, and we didn't benefit from the return of a missing piece like Methot too.

I'm not saying this is the right move or the wrong move, but the situations aren't really comparable.

 

[bert]

The hemsky trade was at the deadline, 20 games later in the season. Not only that, but it it moved us up 4 pts from our pace at the time. If memory serves, we were farther out of a playoff spot then than we are now, and we didn't benefit from the return of a missing piece like Methot too.

I'm not saying this is the right move or the wrong move, but the situations aren't really comparable.

They are fairly comparable its the same group of players for the most part on the outside looking in the same thing as just one year ago. You also pointed out it didn't help. So do it again? That's the definition of insanity. I know you are just reporting what was said I am just upset that that's what they are trying to do. This team is worse than last years team. If last year had this years goaltending they would have made the playoffs. This years team cant win close games, finds ways to lose and doesn't score while giving up the 3rd most shots in the NHL. These are facts, time to secure a legit star, this team is full of 2nd and 3rd line talent with no one coming through the system that is any different.

Bobby Ryan is the only first line player on this team. Time for management to accept what the team currently is build on the strong core of youth and try and secure a star the only way small market teams can.

 

[BonkTastic]

Just putting this here Craig Anderson didn't really get a fixed role on any team until he was 26/27, when he was Lehners age he was on waivers..

So... is your argument that Lehner shouldn't get the starter's job until he's 26/27?

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Not trying to be rude, either, I just don't know if this is supposed to be pro-Lehner starting soon, or Anti-Lehner starting soon.

 

[BonkTastic]

Yandle's is signed until the end of 2015-16 season, or is that what you meant.

Huh, I thought he was UFA this coming summer, but I double-checked, and you are correct. I maybe was confusing him with some other pending UFA defenceman?

 

[BonkTastic]

At 15 to 20 you are getting a player this year.

There's something like a 2% chance a guy selected between 15th and 20th overall plays in the NHL as an 18 year old.

Come on. The OVERWHELMING odds suggest anyone picked 15-20th overall take 2-3 years to make it to the NHL, and that's even assuming you hit on that pick.

 

[bert]

There's something like a 2% chance a guy selected between 15th and 20th overall plays in the NHL as an 18 year old.

Come on. The OVERWHELMING odds suggest anyone picked 15-20th overall take 2-3 years to make it to the NHL, and that's even assuming you hit on that pick.

My bad

I didn't word that correctly when I said 'this year' I meant as in this draft. A player that will play and make an impact in the NHL much like two years ago this draft has top ten talent into the 20's.

 

[BonkTastic]

My bad

I didn't word that correctly when I said 'this year' I meant as in this draft. A player that will play and make an impact in the NHL much like two years ago this draft has top ten talent into the 20's.

OOOOHHHHH.

Ok. Yeah. I can get behind that. My bad for misunderstanding.

 

[Sun God Nika]

So... is your argument that Lehner shouldn't get the starter's job until he's 26/27?

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Not trying to be rude, either, I just don't know if this is supposed to be pro-Lehner starting soon, or Anti-Lehner starting soon.

your not being rude at all, its a pro-lehner if you choose to brand it as such. It's more directed to people losing patience with a goalie who has a lot of time to mature, saying things like he is regressing/should be gone, lost his hype, goalie of the future no more, and such. If you want to compare him to Andy he is already leaps beyond where andy was at 23.

 

[Micklebot]

They are fairly comparable its the same group of players for the most part on the outside looking in the same thing as just one year ago. You also pointed out it didn't help. So do it again? That's the definition of insanity. I know you are just reporting what was said I am just upset that that's what they are trying to do. This team is worse than last years team. If last year had this years goaltending they would have made the playoffs. This years team cant win close games, finds ways to lose and doesn't score while giving up the 3rd most shots in the NHL. These are facts, time to secure a legit star, this team is full of 2nd and 3rd line talent with no one coming through the system that is any different.

Bobby Ryan is the only first line player on this team. Time for management to accept what the team currently is build on the strong core of youth and try and secure a star the only way small market teams can.

Did you read my post? It certainly did make a difference, we moved up in the standings after the hemsky acquisition (made a 4 pts jump in 20 games), just not quite enough. This time, we have more than twice the time to make it happen, and a top 4 D coming back from injury in adition to help out in a position that has been our biggest hole all season. Not only that, but the team has made big strides in improving the defense since the coaching change (our shots against has been middle of the pack since Cameron took over at 30/g). As for not scoring, we've actually scored at middle of the pack clip (2.66/g, would rank 18th), but the PP has let us down in a big way. Fix the PP and we'd see immediate gains in the standings.

The facts are we are not the team you describe anymore. We've significantly changed since the coaching change. That wasn't the case last year. We also have a significant piece coming back in Methot. That wasn't the case last year. We also have a lot of games left. That wasn't the case last year.

Not only that, but we have no idea what kind of move is being looked at. Is Murray looking for a UFA to be like Stewart for cheap? Or is he looking for a longer term addition like we did with Ryan? Not doing anything leaves us stagnant. I know people would love a high draft pick, but whatever we get won't help us for the next 3 years if that unless we win the lottery. We aren't getting someone this draft that will fix all our problems (again, unless we win the lottery) so I don't see any harm in exploring options.

 

[bert]

your not being rude at all, its a pro-lehner if you choose to brand it as such. It's more directed to people losing patience with a goalie who has a lot of time to mature, saying things like he is regressing/should be gone, lost his hype, goalie of the future no more, and such. If you want to compare him to Andy he is already leaps beyond where andy was at 23.

I don't think anyone wants him gone... But I am sure people would like to see him at least maintain his play from the start of the season. He seems defeated in his position like he lost to Anderson or something id rather see him pushing him.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

We'll be consistent and make the playoffs with Anderson but we'll win the Cup with Lehner. Lehner just has that "It Factor" that Andy does not have. Remember Anderson has never won a playoff series in a full season, while Lehner has won a Calder Cup at a very young age and pretty sure did well at the WJC as well.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

your not being rude at all, its a pro-lehner if you choose to brand it as such. It's more directed to people losing patience with a goalie who has a lot of time to mature, saying things like he is regressing/should be gone, lost his hype, goalie of the future no more, and such. If you want to compare him to Andy he is already leaps beyond where andy was at 23.

My main beef with Lehner is that he hasn't really improved since getting to the NHL

Not ready to give up on him because his ceiling is high but I need to see some improvement in rebound control and not over-committing befire I want him to be the number 1

 

[bert]

Did you read my post? It certainly did make a difference, we moved up in the standings after the hemsky acquisition (made a 4 pts jump in 20 games), just not quite enough. This time, we have more than twice the time to make it happen, and a top 4 D coming back from injury in adition to help out in a position that has been our biggest hole all season. Not only that, but the team has made big strides in improving the defense since the coaching change (our shots against has been middle of the pack since Cameron took over at 30/g). As for not scoring, we've actually scored at middle of the pack clip (2.66/g, would rank 18th), but the PP has let us down in a big way. Fix the PP and we'd see immediate gains in the standings.

The facts are we are not the team you describe anymore. We've significantly changed since the coaching change. That wasn't the case last year. We also have a significant piece coming back in Methot. That wasn't the case last year. We also have a lot of games left. That wasn't the case last year.

Not only that, but we have no idea what kind of move is being looked at. Is Murray looking for a UFA to be like Stewart for cheap? Or is he looking for a longer term addition like we did with Ryan? Not doing anything leaves us stagnant. I know people would love a high draft pick, but whatever we get won't help us for the next 3 years if that unless we win the lottery. We aren't getting someone this draft that will fix all our problems (again, unless we win the lottery) so I don't see any harm in exploring options.

If there was no bump in play with a coaching change simply by motivation then this group would be in really really big trouble.

The same problems remain that are traits of losing teams. Getting scored on right after you score and losing when scoring first. I think a lot of people on this board only watch the sens, which is why some people think they are close to a contender. The simple pace of the game of two top western teams is so much faster than any sens game I have watched this season its eye opening. Teams in the NHL as inconsistent, young and lacking top end talent don't win. This team has to get there through development its a process, asset management and identifying an opportunity are something that management that builds contenders has to identify with.

I do agree with your assessment of Methot coming back it should definitely help. To the point where they jump 4 to 5 teams into making the playoffs highly highly doubtfull. This team has also stayed relatively healthy this year outside of Methot to think another injury wont happen over 82 games is highly unlikely.

The last paragraph is where is disagree with you the most, a player might not help next year but they will in 2 to 3. This team will also be a lot better in 2 to 3 years when the young core gets older. At that point this team will begin to truly compete, at that point if they add two top end assets to go with whats a strong young core they are closer to the real goal. The point is to win the cup not make the playoffs, basking in mediocrity is not what I or any other fan should be interested in. Even if they somehow miraculously make the playoffs this year they aren't beating a Pittsburgh, Tampa, NYR etc its not happening. This D core will get eaten alive against a good offense over 7 games we have watched it over and over again against Pittsburgh.

Another Bobby Ryan trade? Trading a top 10 first rounder this year is the equivalent of organization suicide for where this franchise it.

That is why I want the team to move Anderson you don't win with 2nd 3rd and 4th line players. If they move him it starts to build a real foundation for when this teams players are in their primes.

 

[Caeldan]

To be more accurate, he said bolster the offense. That can be done by adding a forward or PMD.

Here's the actual link: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/33877/senators-looking-for-trade-to-boost-offense

Yandle is being shoped, though I doubt we are willing to pay the price. Could the Yotes move Smith or Dubnyk and Yandle for Anderson +? Would we even be interested in that?

What about Vermette? He seems to get traded for a goalie and a 2nd every 4 years or so We'd just be doing it a year early this time.

 

[Caeldan]

We'll be consistent and make the playoffs with Anderson but we'll win the Cup with Lehner. Lehner just has that "It Factor" that Andy does not have. Remember Anderson has never won a playoff series in a full season, while Lehner has won a Calder Cup at a very young age and pretty sure did well at the WJC as well.

If we get the bingo posters to chime in, I generally get the impression that the B-Sens success was largely in spite of Lehner's presence.
The worst thing that happened to Lehner's development was management allowing him to force their hand and let him back up in the NHL rather than telling him he'll have the AHL starter job and work it for a couple seasons.

We could have run with Anderson/Bishop for a while with Lehner getting regular work, and had the depth in position to actually seriously contemplate a move.

And since we pretty much need to swap a #1 for a #1 to not completely stink it up, it seriously limits who we can trade with since there are not that many options available out there. Consider that both Anaheim and St. Louis ended up signing free agent goalies in Bryzgalov and Brodeur rather than being able to make a move.

 

[Micklebot]

If there was no bump in play with a coaching change simply by motivation then this group would be in really really big trouble.

The difference in the game has been pretty systematic, not effort level. We had some real sad effort level games under MacLean, but overall that wasn't really the problem. Changes in how we defend, not how hard we skate, have been noticable.

[/quote]The same problems remain that are traits of losing teams. Getting scored on right after you score and losing when scoring first. I think a lot of people on this board only watch the sens, which is why some people think they are close to a contender. The simple pace of the game of two top western teams is so much faster than any sens game I have watched this season its eye opening. Teams in the NHL as inconsistent, young and lacking top end talent don't win. This team has to get there through development its a process, asset management and identifying an opportunity are something that management that builds contenders has to identify with. [/quote]
If our PP was actually getting some production, we've probably got 4 more points. We've had high pace games too, no team does it 82 games a season though. When 2 top teams play each other, there tends to be a higher tempo because the game means a little more. Comparing other teams to that and expecting the same is foolish.

I do agree with your assessment of Methot coming back it should definitely help. To the point where they jump 4 to 5 teams into making the playoffs highly highly doubtfull. This team has also stayed relatively healthy this year outside of Methot to think another injury wont happen over 82 games is highly unlikely.

We currently need to jump 3 teams two of which we have games in hand on.

The last paragraph is where is disagree with you the most, a player might not help next year but they will in 2 to 3. This team will also be a lot better in 2 to 3 years when the young core gets older. At that point this team will begin to truly compete, at that point if they add two top end assets to go with whats a strong young core they are closer to the real goal. The point is to win the cup not make the playoffs, basking in mediocrity is not what I or any other fan should be interested in. Even if they somehow miraculously make the playoffs this year they aren't beating a Pittsburgh, Tampa, NYR etc its not happening. This D core will get eaten alive against a good offense over 7 games we have watched it over and over again against Pittsburgh.

The difference between picking 11-15 and 21-26 isn't as big a deal as you seem to think it is. Even 6-10 isn't that big a jump. Overvaluing draft picks is common here, but GMs are more likely to know that there is a lot of luck involved, so not to count on it.

Another Bobby Ryan trade? Trading a top 10 first rounder this year is the equivalent of organization suicide for where this franchise it.

By Bobby Ryan trade, I mean picking up someone that is a long term addition to the team, not a star player. I think that much was obvious, but here we are. Moving for a player like Perron would have been a good pickup (though Pitts would have outbid what we'd be willing to pay it seems).

That is why I want the team to move Anderson you don't win with 2nd 3rd and 4th line players. If they move him it starts to build a real foundation for when this teams players are in their primes.

Again, unless we are drafting a top 5 pick, there really are no guarantees that we get the player you're looking for. Even in the top 5 it's not a sure thing. Moving Anderson only makes sense if the pieces coming back are valuable to justify the move. Trading him to move down in the standings is folly.