GDT: GM #5 LA Kings vs Ottawa Senators @11:00AM 10/13/18

Herby

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Feb 27, 2002
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I'll take the two cups and these crappy seasons. You could be Sharks/Blues fan right now.

Even with a better roster on paper, the Kings will probably never be as good as 2012-2014 Kings teams in my lifetime.

That's what the odds are most likely.

What cups did bringing back Richards, Greene and Gaborik (for 6 years) bring?
What cups did trading a prime draft pick for Milan Lucic bring?
What cups did trading for Andrej Sekera bring?

The Kings won Cups because of what happened in June 2005 and June 2008, not because of insanely awful decisions made in June 2014, March 2015 and June 2015.
 
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KingsFan7824

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I wouldn't go as far as saying it was a bad thing, I think @KingsFan7824 may have chosen his words poorly but his point is still correct about why we are in the spot we are in now. We are suffering today because of HORRENDOUS decisions made following the 2014 Stanley Cup win. None of what we are suffering with today is a result of any of the trades that went into winning the actual SC's, but what was done afterwards when a GM completely lost his mind and didn't see what was right in front of him. I still stand by that 2014-2017 was about as bad as you can possibly manage a team, and I think that is one of the reasons that DL has not been able to find work since then.

See I wouldn't agree with that. They gave up a big part of their future for Richards. It eventually worked out great, but today Schenn and Simmonds look better than nothing. Even Klefbom would look better than nothing.

It was better than anything while it was happening, but Lombardi mortgaged the future before, during, and after the golden years. The only reason we no longer rip him for anything before the Cups is because of the Cups, but the process was the same. Which is fine, because what Detroit did for a quarter of a century is damn near impossible to do. Even if Lombardi wanted to build that, and he did, he wasn't going to. So I have zero problem that he traded for Sekera/Lucic/Versteeg, in a last attempt winning. You don't get too many opportunities, and they were still close enough to the "just get in" Kings that it was worth the shot. They're paying for it now, the same way they're paying for giving up what they did for Richards and him breaking down, or Hickey over Couture, or Forbort instead of Tarasenko.

It all works together, and it's not any one thing that put them over the top, or sucked them into the black hole. A lot of moving parts, and they're currently rebuilding without tanking, because there's very little wiggle room due to age and money, and Blake is working from a position of weakness. Unfortunately they still have to sell tickets, so they're trying to sell the contender thing, but I think they know what they are. Sign Kovalchuk for 3 years, that's fine, it doesn't hurt anything. As long as they're not giving up picks or any young guys with any actual potential, they just have to ride out the Cup contracts. In the end, Lombardi did build the Red Wings, just without the 25 year run preceding the black hole. The run was a lot shorter, and not as good during the regular season.
 
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Bandit

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See I wouldn't agree with that. They gave up a big part of their future for Richards. It eventually worked out great, but today Schenn and Simmonds look better than nothing. Even Klefbom would look better than nothing.

It was better than anything while it was happening, but Lombardi mortgaged the future before, during, and after the golden years. The only reason we no longer rip him for anything before the Cups is because of the Cups, but the process was the same. Which is fine, because what Detroit did for a quarter of a century is damn near impossible to do. Even if Lombardi wanted to build that, and he did, he wasn't going to. So I have zero problem that he traded for Sekera/Lucic/Versteeg, in a last attempt winning. You don't get too many opportunities, and they were still close enough to the "just get in" Kings that it was worth the shot. They're paying for it now, the same way they're paying for giving up what they did for Richards and him breaking down, or Hickey over Couture, or Forbort instead of Tarasenko.

It all works together, and it's not any one thing that put them over the top, or sucked them into the black hole. A lot of moving parts, and they're currently rebuilding without tanking, because there's very little wiggle room due to age and money, and Blake is working from a position of weakness. Unfortunately they still have to sell tickets, so they're trying to sell the contender thing, but I think they know what they are. Sign Kovalchuk for 3 years, that's fine, it doesn't hurt anything. As long as they're not giving up picks or any young guys with any actual potential, they just have to ride out the Cup contracts. In the end, Lombardi did build the Red Wings, just without the 25 year run preceding the black hole. The run was a lot shorter, and not as good during the regular season.
There isn’t a single sane person that would take Simmons’s and Schenn today over two Stanley Cups. Not one.
 

Legionnaire

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What cups did bringing back Richards, Greene and Gaborik (for 6 years) bring?
What cups did trading a prime draft pick for Milan Lucic bring?
What cups did trading for Andrej Sekera bring?

The Kings won Cups because of what happened in June 2005 and June 2008, not because of insanely awful decisions made in June 2014, March 2015 and June 2015.

We don't win in 14 without Richards and Greene. Their leadership alone made the difference in those series.

The rest has nothing to do with 14.
 
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kingsfan28

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See I wouldn't agree with that. They gave up a big part of their future for Richards. It eventually worked out great, but today Schenn and Simmonds look better than nothing. Even Klefbom would look better than nothing.

It was better than anything while it was happening, but Lombardi mortgaged the future before, during, and after the golden years. The only reason we no longer rip him for anything before the Cups is because of the Cups, but the process was the same. Which is fine, because what Detroit did for a quarter of a century is damn near impossible to do. Even if Lombardi wanted to build that, and he did, he wasn't going to. So I have zero problem that he traded for Sekera/Lucic/Versteeg, in a last attempt winning. You don't get too many opportunities, and they were still close enough to the "just get in" Kings that it was worth the shot. They're paying for it now, the same way they're paying for giving up what they did for Richards and him breaking down, or Hickey over Couture, or Forbort instead of Tarasenko.

It all works together, and it's not any one thing that put them over the top, or sucked them into the black hole. A lot of moving parts, and they're currently rebuilding without tanking, because there's very little wiggle room due to age and money, and Blake is working from a position of weakness. Unfortunately they still have to sell tickets, so they're trying to sell the contender thing, but I think they know what they are. Sign Kovalchuk for 3 years, that's fine, it doesn't hurt anything. As long as they're not giving up picks or any young guys with any actual potential, they just have to ride out the Cup contracts. In the end, Lombardi did build the Red Wings, just without the 25 year run preceding the black hole. The run was a lot shorter, and not as good during the regular season.

Neither guy was that good before the trade , especially Simmonds. He was parked on the 3rd line, and he became the player he is when he went to Philly and they used him in a completely different way. Those two guys aren't why were seeing the issues we see today, it's everything that was done after the two cups that has hurt.
 
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damacles1156

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What cups did bringing back Richards, Greene and Gaborik (for 6 years) bring?
What cups did trading a prime draft pick for Milan Lucic bring?
What cups did trading for Andrej Sekera bring?

The Kings won Cups because of what happened in June 2005 and June 2008, not because of insanely awful decisions made in June 2014, March 2015 and June 2015.

It's all irrelevant at this point. Everyone knows where all of us stand on the issues of the guys you just listed. It's been beat to death on this board.

You forgot poor drafting and development on this list: One of the guys largely responsible for that is still employed (Futa) and escapes all criticism for some reason. Getting players like Iaffalo/Brick is nice, but it's not going to turn the roster around.

Futa/Blake have to start hitting homeruns in the 1st-3rd rounds of the draft.
 
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KingsFan7824

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There isn’t a single sane person that would take Simmons’s and Schenn today over two Stanley Cups. Not one.

Yes, but they were multiple moves away from really contending after the Richards trade. That was still an incomplete roster straight through the the 2012 deadline. We rip the Lucic trade, as they were multiple moves from really contending after getting him. The end result makes it worth it, but if they had not gone beyond the 3rd round between 2012 and 2014, is there a single sane person that wouldn't currently be ripping that trade every day? They won, and nothing can ever take that away. Had they not won, had Carter not wanted to leave Columbus, what is the Richards trade? It would've been the deal that got Lombardi fired.

The end result was the Cup, and that's the only reason we waste our time watching well paid strangers skate around an ice rink. The process of Richards was the same as Lucic, or Versteeg, or Sekera, and we rip those moves because the end result wasn't the same. The W is the only difference, and it's not guaranteed either way. Winning cures all ills as they say. If you win, the risk was worth it. If you don't, it wasn't.

If I remember correctly, I'm pretty sure I was totally on board with the Richards trade the day it happened, and I was on board with the Lucic trade too. Versteeg and Sekera as well. I even understood why Lombardi kept Richards after 2014. You have to keep that winning group together as much as possible. I buy that theory of team building. I was on board with signing Gaborik, whatever it took to keep him. They needed his goal scoring(who knew Brown and Sutter hated each other so much). All of those instances were a GM taking a shot. The only reason we watch is to see a team win championships, and no move is guaranteed to succeed or fail. I'm pretty sure I wasn't against the Hickey pick. You never know with draft picks, so to me, pretty much any one of them is as good as the next. Take the risk, take the safe bet, either way it's a crapshoot.

If we're talking about why they're in the black hole now though, it's because they had a GM that wanted to win while he had the job. I'm not against anything Lombardi did while he was here, but what he tried could have easily not worked. They were the 8th seed and couldn't score. They came back from down 0-3, and won three Game 7's on the road in the same playoff tournament. That's called the razor's edge. For all the Corsi numbers, they were never a truly dominant team, other than for that one 20 game segment when the whole team was in the zone. They were never more focused than for those 8 weeks. It was amazing.
 

KingsFan7824

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Neither guy was that good before the trade , especially Simmonds. He was parked on the 3rd line, and he became the player he is when he went to Philly and they used him in a completely different way. Those two guys aren't why were seeing the issues we see today, it's everything that was done after the two cups that has hurt.

Schenn was one of the best prospects not in the NHL at the time, maybe even #1, and while Simmonds was parked on the 3rd line, I'm pretty sure people wanted him to be out there more, but the coach was holding him back. He wouldn't even play him on the PP, at all.

Richards started really breaking down in 13-14. 4th line in the playoffs, etc. Since the start of that season, Simmonds has 147 goals, Schenn has 119, and Richards comes in with 18. Lombardi also got nothing for Richards when he had to go. Lombardi probably figured he'd have Richards, in at least a 3rd line role, for more than 2.5 years. They got the Cup with Richards, however, that's a lot of potential goals from Schenn and Simmonds. There's a lot that happened before the Cups that is currently hurting this team. Having to give up yet another 1st round pick, in addition to Schenn and Simmonds, because they still didn't have enough offense after getting Richards, is currently hurting the team. Tarasenko sure would look better than Forbort, and that pick was messed up 2 years before the first Cup. A full year before the Richards trade. It's actually kind of weird it was that long ago. Richards wasn't even a glint in Lombardi's eye when they didn't take Tarasenko.
 

kingsfan28

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Schenn was one of the best prospects not in the NHL at the time, maybe even #1, and while Simmonds was parked on the 3rd line, I'm pretty sure people wanted him to be out there more, but the coach was holding him back. He wouldn't even play him on the PP, at all.

Richards started really breaking down in 13-14. 4th line in the playoffs, etc. Since the start of that season, Simmonds has 147 goals, Schenn has 119, and Richards comes in with 18. Lombardi also got nothing for Richards when he had to go. Lombardi probably figured he'd have Richards, in at least a 3rd line role, for more than 2.5 years. They got the Cup with Richards, however, that's a lot of potential goals from Schenn and Simmonds. There's a lot that happened before the Cups that is currently hurting this team. Having to give up yet another 1st round pick, in addition to Schenn and Simmonds, because they still didn't have enough offense after getting Richards, is currently hurting the team. Tarasenko sure would look better than Forbort, and that pick was messed up 2 years before the first Cup. A full year before the Richards trade. It's actually kind of weird it was that long ago. Richards wasn't even a glint in Lombardi's eye when they didn't take Tarasenko.

I sort of rate the the Hickey/Forbort picks the same, passing up better players for need. Futa even brought this up this summer, they went away from BPA to filling needs at times pre/post cups. As for Schenn, yes he has become better as his career has gone along, but he was nowhere near as good as Richards, and later Carter. Schenn on this team doesn't win any cups. It sucks we didn't get a few more productive years out of Richards, that hit in Chicago pretty much ended his career way too early.
 
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Sol

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I gotta be Honest, I'm definitely in the minority but regular season is much longer than the playoffs, so the amount of happiness they probably experience during the regular season. I wouldn't mind a great regular season team for once rather than the long regular season suckage.
 

Winger23

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Yes, no one said it wasn't, you know what else no one is doing,

Is taking one snippet from a game, and using it to say, that's how the entire season is...oh wait...maybe you are,

Do you truly believe that one snippet of a season should define the team, any team? Yea, didn't think so.

Yeah and your using lack of confidence is any better. Forgive me though I dont have the high level post pee wee coaching experience you seem to have.

You can take snippets from every game so far that shows the confusion but not wasting my time listing them all out.
 
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Winger23

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I gotta be Honest, I'm definitely in the minority but regular season is much longer than the playoffs, so the amount of happiness they probably experience during the regular season. I wouldn't mind a great regular season team for once rather than the long regular season suckage.

I just want to be entertained. This team is extremely boring
 

yankeeking

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KingsFan7824 said:
Lombardi believed that same thing after 2014.

I've said before, that 14 run will go down as a bad thing in the big picture. It was great as it happened, but Lombardi got caught up in it, and it ruined the franchise. If they go out looking the way they did in 4 or 5 to the Sharks, Richards is bought out, Greene is let go, Gaborik is let go, they don't trade what turned into the 2016 pick for Sekera, they don't trade the 2015 for Lucic. They would've had just the one run as the 8th seed, and then nothing else. There would've been a clearer picture of what Lombardi built. One hit wonder, got really hot for 20 games. It was a struggle in 2013. Maybe Kopitar gets traded before signing. Doubtful, but maybe.​


Or, 2014 would've been fine, had they not had an emotional GM. They needed the Lombardi that he learned he should've been after all the post-2014 failures before all the post-2014 failures. Or, it would've been better to miss the playoffs in 2012, fire Lombardi and Sutter then, and bring in a GM that could actually build a good overall team that didn't require getting historically hot at the right time on two occasions."

this is such bullshit , historic level, the fact that you are still bemoaning winning two cups and a third year making it to the WCF against the best other team of the decade is actually there are no words for it , did they have their challenges in 2012 yes and losing a couple of games causing them to finish 2 points out of winning the div. suxed but every team has issues and this is f***ing sports two teams on the ice at the same time causing the other team to struggle is the idea , should chicago have fired their management team because we beat them in 2014 so they could hopefully not make a bad decision based on the belief they could win again with that team come on , you guys sit in your in your man caves and act like this is all so f***ing easy to make a decision, DL did was he thought was right he showed loyalty to a team that played with SO much heart and refuse to lose that they didn't, to sit and second guess after the fact is bullshit and too say stupid shit like maybe it would be better if we hadn't won so we could have fired them and get a great GM that could have built a better team , say like SJ, TAMPA,ST.L, CALGARY, DUCKS,OILERS, ask their fans which they would rather have ..................his decisions have screwed us for now but we will be lucky to have teams like we had in our life time , have been watching hockey since 62 and it took 50 years to enjoy a cup win , i for one don't believe i have that in me again so a slight retool looks better than rebuilding forever
 
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Taishici

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The good news for you guys is that the Kings have Doughty. I can't state enough how valuable he is, easily one of the top 3 players in the league as well as the best d-man. This year so far, no goals against in any situation while playing with three different partners, and three different goalies. What Doughty gives the Kings is so so so valuable in that, when he is on the ice the Kings are one of the toughest teams in NHL. He basically controls almost half of the game, and tilts the ice in the Kings favor. The Kings got a huge discount when he signed for what he did, I am willing to bet if they had to they would have made him the highest paid player in the league. So in theory for the next 8 years or so, ( I think Doughty will hold up quite well because his brain is his best asset) the Kings will always be close to having a Stanley Cup winning team. The Kings just need to find a way to surround with players that won't get out played in the part of the game he is not on the ice.

The bad news for the Kings is that when Doughty is off the ice the other teams just take advantage of it and dominate the Kings. Kopitar can have a similar effect to Doughty but he can be quite inconsistent from year to year. The biggest problem I see for you guys is the 2nd defensive pair is not good enough. Especially when they have to face the other teams top line, which will happen a lot because the other team wants to keep their top players away from Doughty. Also the Power Play is terrible but how often have the Kings had a good Power Play in the last 6 years? So that shouldn't hold them back. Not being able to replace Voynov still haunts the Kings. Get the 2nd pair sorted out, (easier said than done) and the Kings are an easy Playoff team.
 

GoldenBearHockey

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Yeah and your using lack of confidence is any better. Forgive me though I dont have the high level post pee wee coaching experience you seem to have.

You can take snippets from every game so far that shows the confusion but not wasting my time listing them all out.

You saw the lack of confidence in the first two games, that and the fear of making a mistake, they played looser in Winnipeg, Montreal, and Ottawa, it's clear as day.

As far as taking snippets from every game that shows confusion, you can do that for EVERY TEAM ffs, that doesn't mean that's the underlying problem, half of too many men calls are based on some sort of confusion.....

But again, that wouldn't fit your narrative, it's way way too easy just to say, they are confused, without bringing anything to back it up.
 

KingsFan7824

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his decisions have screwed us for now but we will be lucky to have teams like we had in our life time , have been watching hockey since 62 and it took 50 years to enjoy a cup win , i for one don't believe i have that in me again so a slight retool looks better than rebuilding forever

And that's what they're currently doing; rebuilding without tanking. They'll do Kovalchuk, because you owe it to the money being paid for the stars to give those guys at least some sort of chance, but there won't be any risk taking like there was with Lombardi. We're not going to see another Lucic, Versteeg, Sekera, Carter, Richards, Penner deal. They won't sell veterans off just to get rid of them either. Blake will tinker around the edges, maybe trade a guy if forced by circumstance, but he has been and will continue to be conservative.

And hey, LaDue, Amadio, JAD, and Kempe all played more ES minutes than Carter, Kovalchuk, Lewis, Pearson, Clifford, and Thompson yesterday. So we just need more blowouts.
 

King'sPawn

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But again, that wouldn't fit your narrative, it's way way too easy just to say, they are confused, without bringing anything to back it up.

Let's list your claims you have failed to back up. These are just off the top of my head:
- the only reason certain players got less ice time is because the coaches don't trust him yet.
- coaches lie to the media all the time
- I coached at a higher level than all of you and if you actually knew what you were talking about you'd have a job as a coach
- they aren't playing with confidence

If you responded with fewer platitudes and provided actual insight based off your so-called greater professional experience you'd be taken more seriously. But you antagonize all of us lowly fans and refuse to give credit for any valid points.

While many fans DO overreact and just look to blame a single source, there have been multiple valid criticisms of Stevens' decisions.

- claiming they haven't had enough practice, then don't have practice the same week.
- keeping a pairing together which has produced the worst metrics for many years
- having the whole team look completely out of sync the first four games. Today was the first game where I feel the team as a whole played better and individuals made poor decisions
- even if it's a confidence issue, he's still the coach and he needs to get in touch with the pulse of the team. This is what Sutter was a master at.

So whether the entire team was confused or lacking confidence, a problem with the entire team is on the coach. An unprepared team, such as one that didn't touch the ice since their last game and plays flat-footed, is on the coach. Right now he's looking more like a "cool dad" who sees his kid is bringing home all F's on his progress report card and got arrested for tagging a church.
 

GoldenBearHockey

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Let's list your claims you have failed to back up. These are just off the top of my head:
- the only reason certain players got less ice time is because the coaches don't trust him yet.
- coaches lie to the media all the time
- I coached at a higher level than all of you and if you actually knew what you were talking about you'd have a job as a coach
- they aren't playing with confidence

If you responded with fewer platitudes and provided actual insight based off your so-called greater professional experience you'd be taken more seriously. But you antagonize all of us lowly fans and refuse to give credit for any valid points.

While many fans DO overreact and just look to blame a single source, there have been multiple valid criticisms of Stevens' decisions.

- claiming they haven't had enough practice, then don't have practice the same week.
- keeping a pairing together which has produced the worst metrics for many years
- having the whole team look completely out of sync the first four games. Today was the first game where I feel the team as a whole played better and individuals made poor decisions
- even if it's a confidence issue, he's still the coach and he needs to get in touch with the pulse of the team. This is what Sutter was a master at.

So whether the entire team was confused or lacking confidence, a problem with the entire team is on the coach. An unprepared team, such as one that didn't touch the ice since their last game and plays flat-footed, is on the coach. Right now he's looking more like a "cool dad" who sees his kid is bringing home all F's on his progress report card and got arrested for tagging a church.

Claims I have failed to back up?

I literally just showed you the ice time from Amadio and JAD, how it went up each game...

Coaches lie to the media all the time....ok, I mean, I didn't really think I had to back that up, common sense would dictate that the coach, even if he feels that a player downright f***ed it all up, isn't going to the media and telling him, that player just done f***ed it all up....that's just common sense...

I have coached at a higher level than most here, and I never said they they would have a job, I was surprised that with all the insight, no one has applied, big difference, probably a bit facetious, but it drove home the point.

But hey, let's take a look at yours...

Claims they haven't had enough practice, only place I can find that he said that, is someone on here said he said that, but EVEN if he did say that, not having a practice the day after a tough night game, and before a day game start....really, that's what you are going to pin on bad coaching?

Keeping a pairing together that has produced worst metrics...ok, sure, if hockey was played by a computer, you might be right, be in the real world, those metrics don't mean much...case in point, on the 4th goal, Muzzin-Martinez on the ice, you want to argue that the PAIRING ITSELF, is responsible for Martinez making a boneheaded decision to step up to a player standing still and ignore the puck coming down? That's your argument, that if it was Martinez and LaDue, it wouldn't be the pairing, but just Martinez? That's asinine.

The whole team has looked out of sync for various reasons, coaches trying to implement a system they aren't familiar with, or not buying into is one of them, them playing through hesitation and fear of making a mistake, another....

As far as the team playing flat footed and blaming that on not having a practice...that's again, asinine. It's hindsight at it's best, and if they had come out strong, it would have been a "good" move etc, it's nonsense.

It's a long season, for them not to have a practice after a hard night game, and an early day game the following day, oh boy, the horror.

EDIT: At least you had the balls to put down what you thought was wrong, other than STEVENS SUCKS and leave it at that....
 
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