Give us your top ten players of all time

[BenchBrawl]

Another similarity Harvey has with Lidstrom, right? Focusing on defense and transition at even strength, and saving his offensive talent for the powerplay.

Also, unrelated note, but Red Kelly might be the most underrated hockey player of all-time

Always felt a big part of that was him not officially having the four straight Norris trophies that he deserves.

 

[Sentinel]

Doesn't this seem to indicate Harvey's teammates were better players than Lidstrom's teammates, rather than Lidstrom was better than Harvey?

Uhm... yeah. As great as Yzerman, Fedorov, Datsyuk, and Vernon were, I don't think anybody ranks them over Richard, Beliveau, and Plante. My (actually danin's) point is that Lidstrom's weak Hart record is not indicative of the fact that he was MORE valuable to his team than Harvey.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Always felt a big part of that was him not officially having the four straight Norris trophies that he deserves.

Not to mention the 1954 Hart Trophy that he probably deserved. (The same writers who gave Rollins the Hart over Kelly by a narrow margin also voted Kelly the best player of the year in a different poll). But that one isn't 100% clear cut as the Norrises.

Reading the historical record, Kelly was the clear #2 on the Wings dynasty behind Howe. Yet Lindsay and Sawchuk tend to be remembered more.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Hart voting is a big feather in the cap for both Harvey and Kelly.

No Original 6 defenseman other than those two received significant Hart votes, and those two regularly did.

 

[Sentinel]

Not to mention the 1954 Hart Trophy that he probably deserved. (The same writers who gave Rollins the Hart over Kelly by a narrow margin also voted Kelly the best player of the year in a different poll). But that one isn't 100% clear cut as the Norrises.

Reading the historical record, Kelly was the clear #2 on the Wings dynasty behind Howe. Yet Lindsay and Sawchuk tend to be remembered more.

Sawchuk is my #29.
Kelly is my #30.
Lindsay is my #40.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Doesn't this seem to indicate Harvey's teammates were better players than Lidstrom's teammates, rather than Lidstrom was better than Harvey?

Just indicates the difference in the distribution of team responsibilities. and the resulting perceptions.perceptions.

Jean Beliveau and Henri Richard had distinct responsibilities on the Montreal Canadiens. Beliveau received much more Hart consideration but Frank Selke Sr called Henri Richard more important.

Conversely Detroit had Federov and Yzerman with Federov actually winning a Hart yet Yzerman at various points of his career was equally valuable.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Sawchuk is my #29.
Kelly is my #30.
Lindsay is my #40.

I think those are reasonable spots for Sawchuk and Lindsay but Kelly is way too low.

But you're far from the only one who would rank them similar to that.

Anyway, this is getting off topic.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Uhm... yeah. As great as Yzerman, Fedorov, Datsyuk, and Vernon were, I don't think anybody ranks them over Richard, Beliveau, and Plante. My (actually danin's) point is that Lidstrom's weak Hart record is not indicative of the fact that he was MORE valuable to his team than Harvey.

This overlooks Fedorov's 1993-94 Hart..

 

[BadgerBruce]

I think those are reasonable spots for Sawchuk and Lindsay but Kelly is way too low.

But you're far from the only one who would rank them similar to that.

Anyway, this is getting off topic.

Perhaps not, given that the thread is about posters’ Top 10 lists.

Lindsay is probably a stretch, but I know many people with hockey acumen worthy of respect who believe Sawchuk is the greatest goaltender in history and deserves inclusion on a Top 10 list. I don’t necessarily share this view, but it’s legitimate.

As for Kelly, if I’m trying to build an All-Time Top 10 list with positional balance, he likely doesn’t quite make it as a defenceman — there are 2-3 above him. But if I’m building a “Greatest” list without regard to positional balance, Red Kelly is right in the mix. If there’s such a thing as “elite adaptability,” Kelly had it and in my view this strengthens his overall case, particularly since it contributed directly to winning multiple Stanley Cups on two teams.

 

[BenchBrawl]

No way is Kelly a Top 10 player.He's not even in my Top 20.

I'm in in the "Kelly is underrated" bandwagon, but let's not swing the pendulum all the way to the other side.

 

[BadgerBruce]

No way is Kelly a Top 10 player.He's not even in my Top 20.

I'm in in the "Kelly is underrated" bandwagon, but let's not swing the pendulum all the way to the other side.

I don’t think anyone in this thread has actually put Kelly on their Top 10 list.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I don’t think anyone in this thread has actually put Kelly on their Top 10 list.

I misread, my mistake.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

No way is Kelly a Top 10 player.He's not even in my Top 20.

I'm in in the "Kelly is underrated" bandwagon, but let's not swing the pendulum all the way to the other side.

If he's not in your top 20 then he's underrated.

 

[BenchBrawl]

If he's not in your top 20 then he's underrated.

I'm not saying this is my Top-20, but here's a little improvised list of 20 players in no order:

Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Howe
Harvey
Beliveau
Richard
Hull
Bourque
Plante
Roy
Hasek
Jagr
Lafleur
Ovechkin
Messier
Nighbor
Morenz
Shore
Crosby

Who is Kelly better than on this list?

 

[Sentinel]

Sorry, but Kelly doesn't crack the Top 20. Even if you eliminate the Soviets, he doesn't.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm not saying this is my Top-20, but here's a little improvised list of 20 players in no order:

Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Howe
Harvey
Beliveau
Richard
Hull
Bourque
Plante
Roy
Hasek
Jagr
Lafleur
Ovechkin
Messier
Nighbor
Morenz
Shore
Crosby

Who is Kelly better than on this list?

I would probably have Kelly over a number of those forwards - Jagr, Lafleur, Ovechkin, Messier, Nighbor.

Seems to be an issue of how to value defensemen, really. Something that has no "right answer." I do notice just 4 defensemen in your top 20.

I have Kelly 6th among defensemen

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

Between 1954-55 and 1959-60, Doug Harvey was the 5th highest EV scorer among defensemen in the regular season, but in the playoffs he was the highest EV scorer in both raw points and points per game:

Player	GP	EV PTS	EV PTS/GP
Doug Harvey	61	27	0.443
Red Kelly	40	16	0.400
Carl Brewer	22	8	0.364
Jim Morrison	21	7	0.333
Leo Boivin	34	11	0.324

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

In comparison with the regular season's top-12 EV scorers among defensemen over the same period:

Player	P.O. EV PTS/GP	R.S. EV PTS/GP	Change
Doug Harvey	0.443	0.275	+61%
Red Kelly	0.400	0.310	+29%
Bill Gadsby	0.188	0.320	-41%
Marcel Pronovost	0.167	0.292	-43%
Fern Flaman	0.182	0.283	-36%
Jim Morrison	0.333	0.261	+28%
Allan Stanley	0.176	0.267	-34%
Tim Horton	0.167	0.286	-42%
Tom Johnson	0.151	0.252	-40%
Pierre Pilote	0.200	0.297	-33%
Dollard St. Laurent	0.184	0.229	-20%
Jean-Guy Talbot	0.208	0.236	-12%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Admittedly, this is more of a "back of the envelope" demonstration rather than a rigorous analysis (i.e. adjusting for opponent GA for each series played), but I think that it is significant that only three of the top 12 EV-scoring defensemen could increase their EV output in the postseason. Considering that the average opponent strength is going to be higher in the playoffs than the regular season, this isn't too surprising. Two of the exceptions are considered to be the best D-men of the era, and Jim Morrison played only 21 postseason games over 6 years. The fact that Harvey could increase his EV output by 61% going into the playoffs is impressive.

If it were just the regular season, it's probably Bourque > Harvey ~ Lidstrom, but if we include the playoffs, I think Harvey does deserve a place in a top-ten list.

Anyway, here's a top-10 list from me, with the big 4 and "positional considerations" (one center, two wingers, two D-men, one goalie). Personally, I consider the "shelf life" of a modern player to be a decade, and players from before the O6 era 7 years.

Bobby Orr (D)
Wayne Gretzky (C)
Gordie Howe (RW)
Mario Lemieux (C)
Sergei Makarov (RW)
Doug Harvey (D)
Jean Beliveau (C)
Maurice Richard (RW)
Ray Bourque (D)
Patrick Roy (G)

 

[streitz]

1. Lemieux
2. Howe
3. Gretzky
4. Trottier
5. Lafleur/Jagr/Dionne(can't decide)


1. Orr
2. Robinson
3. Potvin
4. Lidstrom
5. Pronger


If we're ranking purely on defensive play I'd probably have Langway on the list, but the guy generated almost no offense during the 80's. Beast defender though.


Don't wanna rank Harvey since I've seen very little footage of him, only 1 or 2 games from different habs collections.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

i like seeing Makarov in a top 10....

i wouldn't do it myself, but i like seeing someone else with the cojones to do so

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

i like seeing Makarov in a top 10....

i wouldn't do it myself, but i like seeing someone else with the cojones to do so

Given my criterion of one decade, there's really not much choice if we consider the USSR to have been the co-best hockey country in his era. Makarov won the Soviet scoring title 9 times in a decade by hefty margins. I did a VsX analysis for the Soviet league in the Makarov vs. Stastny thread. His point-per-game margins against the Soviet league were sufficiently high that I suspect that he would have won the Art Ross (if Gretzky didn't exist, and if he spoke fluent English) in the NHL in 1980, 1981, 1984, 1985, and 1986. I think that in the worst case scenario, Makarov was roughly Jagr's equal offensively (in both 7-year and 10-year VsX) while being more responsible defensively, and he was as much as a winner as one could be in the Soviet league.

 

[Chili]

Beliveau
Lemieux
Jagr
Hull
Howe
Messier
Orr
Potvin
Robinson
Plante

 

[BenchBrawl]

Given my criterion of one decade, there's really not much choice if we consider the USSR to have been the co-best hockey country in his era. Makarov won the Soviet scoring title 9 times in a decade by hefty margins. I did a VsX analysis for the Soviet league in the Makarov vs. Stastny thread. His point-per-game margins against the Soviet league were sufficiently high that I suspect that he would have won the Art Ross (if Gretzky didn't exist, and if he spoke fluent English) in the NHL in 1980, 1981, 1984, 1985, and 1986. I think that in the worst case scenario, Makarov was roughly Jagr's equal offensively (in both 7-year and 10-year VsX) while being more responsible defensively, and he was as much as a winner as one could be in the Soviet league.

Worst case scenario?! That seems very optimistic, but I haven't done the work like you did.Will take a look at it later, but this remark of yours caught me by surprise.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I would probably have Kelly over a number of those forwards - Jagr, Lafleur, Ovechkin, Messier, Nighbor.

Seems to be an issue of how to value defensemen, really. Something that has no "right answer." I do notice just 4 defensemen in your top 20.

I have Kelly 6th among defensemen

This wasn't my Top 20 btw, just threw some names on the fly to test it out.

I try not to force a position % so early on the list.I agree there's no "right answer" to this issue though.

I was responding to someone who said not having Kelly in my Top 20 was underrating him.Of course if I rank Kelly anywhere lower than where the person ranks him, in his eyes I am "underrating him" by definition, but I feel if we take it in a more general way this was too harsh.More a matter of preference than some unreasonable and radical opinion.

Ranking Jagr, Lafleur, Ovechkin, Messier and Nighbor above Kelly is not unreasonable to the point of underrating him IMO.They were all arguably bigger names, bigger stars than him.I'd say if Kelly is outside the Top 30 is where it starts to get in more serious underrating territory.

 

[Orange Dragon]

I have a clear top 5 after that it gets quite messy.

Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Howe
Hasek

Why Hasek at number 5? I think that by his pure skill and ability to stop the puck he is clearly the best goaltender of all time. And his peak of 6 vezinas and 2 harts is the closest any player got to Big 4 level of dominance.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Hart voting is a big feather in the cap for both Harvey and Kelly.

No Original 6 defenseman other than those two received significant Hart votes, and those two regularly did.

Plodding along in our efforts to understand Red Kelly. Link to research efforts:

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/red-kelly-defenceman-or-forward.2484997/

Three issues are central.

The value of a player with positional diversity, especially defenceman / forward in an era with 16-18 players, on the game day roster.

The players ability and the coaching / management ability to optimize such ability. Fairly easy to show that Toe Blake did a much better job of deploying such players.

The impact of a player's diversity on resulting honours voting. Plus for Hart could be a minus for the Norris.