Give us your top ten players of all time

[Michael Farkas]

Sudden decline? He was good?!?! No way...

We're both thinking of the right guy, right? The Swiss, anime-looking kid that played for Anaheim...? He dropped to his knees before a shot was even threatened and he sat back on his pads, so he played pure blocking butterfly but without any leg flare...and because his knees would drop in such a way, not only did he not cover wide with the flare, but his five-hole was left open because pads are designed for butterfly goalies to flare their legs out...that's how it works...that's what makes it efficiency goaltending. So he was doing the bare minimum and doing it wrong...what a combo. He had lazy hands (though, to be fair, his low glove was good...but that's because he's one of those crazy ass right glove goalies...*shudders*), he was a poor skater, he had no leverage on his edges because he was always just ready to drop, no shuffle ability despite playing on his knees constantly, his rebound control itself wasn't awful because things did kind of stick to him...but the quantity of rebounds he let up was a little annoying to me...he never directed a rebound to anyone, he just hoped his mattress was soft enough to not spill the wine glass...

Oh man, he was brutal though...I know you're in the #GoalieUnion or whatever...but **** man, some workers just suck...this guy sucks...he's the guy you try to send for coffee, but he always screws it up, so you just send him to get like Slim Jim's and Funyuns...**** you can't really mess up...even if you drop it...

 

[danincanada]

The Hart voting record corroborates my posts on Harvey. The men who were covering the game at that time felt he stood out.

Harvey - 2, 3, 5, 5, 5
Lidstrom - 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 17

Just for kicks and a more modern comparison to Lidstrom:

Bourque - 2, 2, 3, 5, 5, 6, 8, 10, 11

This is also Harvey on teams with more star players and higher peaks than what Lidstrom had.

I don't know what else to tell you here.

You are not looking at the whole picture here and once again, it’s not as simple as this for some of your claims. I’d like to preface this with my opinion that Hart voting is not infallible but at least it’s supposed to be “most valuable to his team” so you’d hope voters at least get comparisons between teammates right most of the time. It also seems to be quite common that defenseman don’t tend to get the amount of votes they should because “they have their own trophy” and it’s far easier for anyone to put value on points, which inevitably gives forward an edge.

Let’s dig deeper with the Hart voting for this “straw that stirred the drink” claim:

‘54-55 - Harvey finishes 5th place behind teammates Richard and Beliveau, who finished 3rd and 4th behind two Leafs. Oddly enough, the Cup and President trophy winning Red Wings had no one in the running.

‘55-56 - Harvey finished 5th place again and his teammate Beliveau won it.

‘56-57 - Harvey finishes 5th again and Beliveau finished 2nd.

‘57-58 - Harvey finished 3rd, which was tops on his team and Henri Richard finished 4th, one vote behind. Beliveau missed 15 games.

‘60-61 - Teammate Geoffrion won it.

‘61-62 - Harvey, now with the Rangers, finishes 2nd and his former teammate Plante wins it.

So Harvey actually only finished ahead of all Hab teammates once and lost out to his former goalie when he went to a weaker team. The voters seemed to think he was quite consistent for 4 years but he only lead his team the one time.

Let’s look at Lidstrom now:

‘99-00 - Lidstrom finishes 9th behind and his teammate Yzerman finishes 8th.

‘00-01 - Lidstrom finishes 10th, tops on his team.

‘01-02 - Shanahan somehow finishes 9th, which is absurd to me because there’s no way he was more valuable to the Red Wings than Norris winning Lidstrom. Maybe Harvey had a similar situation.

‘02-03 - Lidstrom finishes 8th and teammate Fedorov 9th, who had one of the best seasons of his career.

‘05-06 - Lidstrom finishes 7th, tops on his 124 point team.

‘06-07 - Lidstrom finishes 6th, tops on his 113 point team.

‘07-08 - Lidstrom finishes 4th with Datsyuk and Zetterberg finishing 9 and 10, on their 115 point team.

So Lidstrom got more votes than his teammates 5 times here.

Bourque, of course, had the best Hart record between the 3 and finished above all teammates even more times than Lidstrom - enough times that I got tired of trying to count. But unlike the other two guys he didn’t always have star forwards casting a big shadow. Oates did it to once and grabbed lots of votes during his 142 point season.

If we are going to strictly rely on Hart records like this wasn’t it Bourque who was the straw that stirred the drink, then Lidstrom looks like the top player on his team more than Harvey?

Secondly, Harvey was in a 6 team league where 4 teams made the playoffs. The guys who didn’t make the playoffs, like today, faced an uphill battle to get Hart votes so now you’re closer to 4 teams worth of only Canadian players. This is a far cry from what Lidstrom and Bourque faced, which was 16 playoff teams with a combination of elite Canadians and non-Canadians. For a trophy defined as “most valuable to his team” having more teams makes a huge difference for obvious reasons.

You don’t know what else to tell me because you’ve never nitpicked Harvey before and probably never saw it done before either.

 

[Canadiens1958]

You are not looking at the whole picture here and once again, it’s not as simple as this for some of your claims. I’d like to preface this with my opinion that Hart voting is not infallible but at least it’s supposed to be “most valuable to his team” so you’d hope voters at least get comparisons between teammates right most of the time. It also seems to be quite common that defenseman don’t tend to get the amount of votes they should because “they have their own trophy” and it’s far easier for anyone to put value on points, which inevitably gives forward an edge.

Let’s dig deeper with the Hart voting for this “straw that stirred the drink” claim:

‘54-55 - Harvey finishes 5th place behind teammates Richard and Beliveau, who finished 3rd and 4th behind two Leafs. Oddly enough, the Cup and President trophy winning Red Wings had no one in the running.

‘55-56 - Harvey finished 5th place again and his teammate Beliveau won it.

‘56-57 - Harvey finishes 5th again and Beliveau finished 2nd.

‘57-58 - Harvey finished 3rd, which was tops on his team and Henri Richard finished 4th, one vote behind. Beliveau missed 15 games.

‘60-61 - Teammate Geoffrion won it.

‘61-62 - Harvey, now with the Rangers, finishes 2nd and his former teammate Plante wins it.

So Harvey actually only finished ahead of all Hab teammates once and lost out to his former goalie when he went to a weaker team. The voters seemed to think he was quite consistent for 4 years but he only lead his team the one time.

Let’s look at Lidstrom now:

‘99-00 - Lidstrom finishes 9th behind and his teammate Yzerman finishes 8th.

‘00-01 - Lidstrom finishes 10th, tops on his team.

‘01-02 - Shanahan somehow finishes 9th, which is absurd to me because there’s no way he was more valuable to the Red Wings than Norris winning Lidstrom. Maybe Harvey had a similar situation.

‘02-03 - Lidstrom finishes 8th and teammate Fedorov 9th, who had one of the best seasons of his career.

‘05-06 - Lidstrom finishes 7th, tops on his 124 point team.

‘06-07 - Lidstrom finishes 6th, tops on his 113 point team.

‘07-08 - Lidstrom finishes 4th with Datsyuk and Zetterberg finishing 9 and 10, on their 115 point team.

So Lidstrom got more votes than his teammates 5 times here.

Bourque, of course, had the best Hart record between the 3 and finished above all teammates even more times than Lidstrom - enough times that I got tired of trying to count. But unlike the other two guys he didn’t always have star forwards casting a big shadow. Oates did it to once and grabbed lots of votes during his 142 point season.

If we are going to strictly rely on Hart records like this wasn’t it Bourque who was the straw that stirred the drink, then Lidstrom looks like the top player on his team more than Harvey?

Secondly, Harvey was in a 6 team league where 4 teams made the playoffs. The guys who didn’t make the playoffs, like today, faced an uphill battle to get Hart votes so now you’re closer to 4 teams worth of only Canadian players. This is a far cry from what Lidstrom and Bourque faced, which was 16 playoff teams with a combination of elite Canadians and non-Canadians. For a trophy defined as “most valuable to his team” having more teams makes a huge difference for obvious reasons.

You don’t know what else to tell me because you’ve never nitpicked Harvey before and probably never saw it done before either.

When everything else fails back to the old league size fallacy and provenance argument.

Since the 1967-68 expansion one Hart winner from non-playoff teams. 1987-88 Mario Lemieux.

O6 era, Hart Trophy winners from non-playoff teams:

1958-59 Andy Bathgate.
1953-54 Al Rollins.

NHL Hart Memorial Trophy Winners | Hockey-Reference.com

The other fallacy is that Lidstrom wa somewhat hurt by teammates splitting Hart votes otherwise he would have been closer. Nonsense. Closest Lidstrom came to a Hart Trophy was roughly 20% of the winners total. Teammate votes did not matter. He never finished ahead of top 10 candidates.

Harvey in his top seasons was a serious candidate for the Hart drawing upwards of 60%of the winners total and finishing ahead of Howe four times in the Hart voting.

Did Lidstrom ever come close or finish ahead of a Top 4 All-Time player in Hart voting?

 

[danincanada]

When everything else fails back to the old league size fallacy and provenance argument.

Since the 1967-68 expansion one Hart winner from non-playoff teams. 1987-88 Mario Lemieux.

O6 era, Hart Trophy winners from non-playoff teams:

1958-59 Andy Bathgate.
1953-54 Al Rollins.

NHL Hart Memorial Trophy Winners | Hockey-Reference.com

The other fallacy is that Lidstrom wa somewhat hurt by teammates splitting Hart votes otherwise he would have been closer. Nonsense. Closest Lidstrom came to a Hart Trophy was roughly 20% of the winners total. Teammate votes did not matter. He never finished ahead of top 10 candidates.

Harvey in his top seasons was a serious candidate for the Hart drawing upwards of 60%of the winners total and finishing ahead of Howe four times in the Hart voting.

Did Lidstrom ever come close or finish ahead of a Top 4 All-Time player in Hart voting?

How is it a fallacy that league size would impact something like Hart Trophy voting? Of course "most valuable to HIS team" is going to be impacted by this. How many candidates can there be if there are only 6 teams? The "provenance" thing is beyond dispute. All we need to do is look at how many non-Canadians joined Canadians as Hart candidates after they started coming over and became elite players. What's the argument against that evidence again? Elite non-Canadians had no impact on Hart voting? Just look, they did and still do.

3 Hart winners on non-playoff teams over that huge time span isn't evidence that they face an uphill battle for Hart votes?

I didn't even mention splitting voting with teammate, I just displayed the finishes. It's obvious that having a star forward on the team can cast a shadow on the defenseman but it happened to all 3 of the D we are discussing at some point.

Was Lidstrom in his prime while even competing for a Hart trophy with a top 4 all-time player? Looking back at his Hart record, not a chance, that wasn't going to happen anyways because he was clearly underrated by voters anyways. Harvey did finish ahead of Howe a few seasons but so did a lot of other players. These weren't Howe's best seasons because he usually won the Hart in those. Does that mean they were all actually more valuable than Howe during his lesser years?

You're trying to hard to dispute every point I make.

 

[Canadiens1958]

How is it a fallacy that league size would impact something like Hart Trophy voting? Of course "most valuable to HIS team" is going to be impacted by this. How many candidates can there be if there are only 6 teams? The "provenance" thing is beyond dispute. All we need to do is look at how many non-Canadians joined Canadians as Hart candidates after they started coming over and became elite players. What's the argument against that evidence again? Elite non-Canadians had no impact on Hart voting? Just look, they did and still do.

3 Hart winners on non-playoff teams over that huge time span isn't evidence that they face an uphill battle for Hart votes?

I didn't even mention splitting voting with teammate, I just displayed the finishes. It's obvious that having a star forward on the team can cast a shadow on the defenseman but it happened to all 3 of the D we are discussing at some point.

Was Lidstrom in his prime while even competing for a Hart trophy with a top 4 all-time player? Looking back at his Hart record, not a chance, that wasn't going to happen anyways because he was clearly underrated by voters anyways. Harvey did finish ahead of Howe a few seasons but so did a lot of other players. These weren't Howe's best seasons because he usually won the Hart in those. Does that mean they were all actually more valuable than Howe during his lesser years?

You're trying to hard to dispute every point I make.

So effectively you have demonstrated that the non-Canadian influx did not produce Top 4 players and at the same time Lidstrom did not produce Hart level performance.

Confusing best with valuable in the case of Howe.

 

[danincanada]

So effectively you have demonstrated that the non-Canadian influx did not produce Top 4 players and at the same time Lidstrom did not produce Hart level performance.

Confusing best with valuable in the case of Howe.

Summarize it like that if you want. Seems your game plan is to throw things at a board to see what sticks, whether they are relevant or not, and the posts don't seem to require any accountability. I should have stopped responding to you the second you posted that video of Harvey's "spin move", which was actually just a tight turn away from the opposition.

I displayed how it's not as simple as just going by Hart records as proof that Harvey was "the straw that stirred the drink" with his Habs teams because his own teammates surpassed him in voting more often than not, while Lidstrom and Bourque both had far more top team finishes for the Hart. I'm not interested in following you into another one of your vortex's.

 

[Big Phil]

You are not looking at the whole picture here and once again, it’s not as simple as this for some of your claims. I’d like to preface this with my opinion that Hart voting is not infallible but at least it’s supposed to be “most valuable to his team” so you’d hope voters at least get comparisons between teammates right most of the time. It also seems to be quite common that defenseman don’t tend to get the amount of votes they should because “they have their own trophy” and it’s far easier for anyone to put value on points, which inevitably gives forward an edge.

Let’s dig deeper with the Hart voting for this “straw that stirred the drink” claim:

‘54-55 - Harvey finishes 5th place behind teammates Richard and Beliveau, who finished 3rd and 4th behind two Leafs. Oddly enough, the Cup and President trophy winning Red Wings had no one in the running.

‘55-56 - Harvey finished 5th place again and his teammate Beliveau won it.

‘56-57 - Harvey finishes 5th again and Beliveau finished 2nd.

‘57-58 - Harvey finished 3rd, which was tops on his team and Henri Richard finished 4th, one vote behind. Beliveau missed 15 games.

‘60-61 - Teammate Geoffrion won it.

‘61-62 - Harvey, now with the Rangers, finishes 2nd and his former teammate Plante wins it.

So Harvey actually only finished ahead of all Hab teammates once and lost out to his former goalie when he went to a weaker team. The voters seemed to think he was quite consistent for 4 years but he only lead his team the one time.

Let’s look at Lidstrom now:

‘99-00 - Lidstrom finishes 9th behind and his teammate Yzerman finishes 8th.

‘00-01 - Lidstrom finishes 10th, tops on his team.

‘01-02 - Shanahan somehow finishes 9th, which is absurd to me because there’s no way he was more valuable to the Red Wings than Norris winning Lidstrom. Maybe Harvey had a similar situation.

‘02-03 - Lidstrom finishes 8th and teammate Fedorov 9th, who had one of the best seasons of his career.

‘05-06 - Lidstrom finishes 7th, tops on his 124 point team.

‘06-07 - Lidstrom finishes 6th, tops on his 113 point team.

‘07-08 - Lidstrom finishes 4th with Datsyuk and Zetterberg finishing 9 and 10, on their 115 point team.

So Lidstrom got more votes than his teammates 5 times here.

Bourque, of course, had the best Hart record between the 3 and finished above all teammates even more times than Lidstrom - enough times that I got tired of trying to count. But unlike the other two guys he didn’t always have star forwards casting a big shadow. Oates did it to once and grabbed lots of votes during his 142 point season.

If we are going to strictly rely on Hart records like this wasn’t it Bourque who was the straw that stirred the drink, then Lidstrom looks like the top player on his team more than Harvey?

Secondly, Harvey was in a 6 team league where 4 teams made the playoffs. The guys who didn’t make the playoffs, like today, faced an uphill battle to get Hart votes so now you’re closer to 4 teams worth of only Canadian players. This is a far cry from what Lidstrom and Bourque faced, which was 16 playoff teams with a combination of elite Canadians and non-Canadians. For a trophy defined as “most valuable to his team” having more teams makes a huge difference for obvious reasons.

You don’t know what else to tell me because you’ve never nitpicked Harvey before and probably never saw it done before either.

Oh man, come on, we've been over this. Do you not think it is harder to beat a prime Beliveau, Geoffrion and Richard or Yzerman with his offense significantly lower, Fedorov who never gave his all in the regular seasons or Shanahan? Come on, I know you know the answer. The fact that Harvey went to a weak team in the Rangers and still won the Norris and finished 2nd in Hart voting in 1962 should tell you something. Andy Bathgate, a guy who had as many points as Gordie Howe in 9 consecutive years (1962 is part of that) did not get the Hart votes on the Rangers in 1962. Harvey did. Why? Well, I know the answer, but you ought to ask yourself this. No offense to Lidstrom, but he didn't hit that sort of level. We know he didn't hit Bourque's level and Harvey's level was at least Bourque's.

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

gretzky
mario
crosby
jagr
ovi
malkin
hasek
roy
lidstrom
mcdavid

these guys at their best, nobody is or was better, the film doesn't lie

 

[blogofmike]

I think Doug Harvey's big advantage offensively was getting to play on the Habs killer PP unit in a time when PP units were forward-heavy. As an ES scorer in that era (I'm using 1952-62 for Harvey's prime based on AS finishes), Harvey did not stand out.

Best ES Point Seasons by Defenders (1952-1962)

Rk	Player	Year	ESP
1	Red Kelly	1954	32
2	Red Kelly	1952	31
	Red Kelly	1953	31
4	Fern Flaman	1957	30
5	JG Talbot	1962	29
	Pierre Pilote	1960	29
	Bill Gadsby	1954	29
	Tim Horton	1962	29
	Bill Gadsby	1962	29
10	JG Talbot	1961	28
	Bill Gadsby	1956	28
12	Marcel Provonost	1955	27
	Red Kelly	1955	27
14	Marcel Provonost	1959	26
	Pierre Pilote	1962	26
	Bill Gadsby	1959	26
17	Allan Stanley	1961	25
	Tom Johnson	1959	25
19	Bob Turner	1959	24
	Tim Horton	1954	24
21	Gus Mortson	1953	23
	Dollard St. Laurent	1958	23
	Marcel Provonost	1960	23
	Tim Horton	1958	23
	Allan Stanley	1960	23
	Hy Buller	1952	23
	Red Kelly	1956	23
	Doug Harvey	1957	23

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It is odd to see a fellow Hab defender like St. Laurent outscore Harvey at ES during a Norris season. In Harvey's off year in 1959, two Hab defenders (Norris winner Johnson and swingman Bob Turner) beat Harvey's career high ES point total. JG Talbot appears to be just a better ES scorer than Harvey during Harvey's final 2 Norris years.

Purely from an offensive standpoint, Doug Harvey was not especially productive.​

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think Doug Harvey's big advantage offensively was getting to play on the Habs killer PP unit in a time when PP units were forward-heavy. As an ES scorer in that era (I'm using 1952-62 for Harvey's prime based on AS finishes), Harvey did not stand out.

Best ES Point Seasons by Defenders (1952-1962)

Rk	Player	Year	ESP
1	Red Kelly	1954	32
2	Red Kelly	1952	31
	Red Kelly	1953	31
4	Fern Flaman	1957	30
5	JG Talbot	1962	29
	Pierre Pilote	1960	29
	Bill Gadsby	1954	29
	Tim Horton	1962	29
	Bill Gadsby	1962	29
10	JG Talbot	1961	28
	Bill Gadsby	1956	28
12	Marcel Provonost	1955	27
	Red Kelly	1955	27
14	Marcel Provonost	1959	26
	Pierre Pilote	1962	26
	Bill Gadsby	1959	26
17	Allan Stanley	1961	25
	Tom Johnson	1959	25
19	Bob Turner	1959	24
	Tim Horton	1954	24
21	Gus Mortson	1953	23
	Dollard St. Laurent	1958	23
	Marcel Provonost	1960	23
	Tim Horton	1958	23
	Allan Stanley	1960	23
	Hy Buller	1952	23
	Red Kelly	1956	23
	Doug Harvey	1957	23

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It is odd to see a fellow Hab defender like St. Laurent outscore Harvey at ES during a Norris season. In Harvey's off year in 1959, two Hab defenders (Norris winner Johnson and swingman Bob Turner) beat Harvey's career high ES point total. JG Talbot appears to be just a better ES scorer than Harvey during Harvey's final 2 Norris years.

Purely from an offensive standpoint, Doug Harvey was not especially productive.​

Another similarity Harvey has with Lidstrom, right? Focusing on defense and transition at even strength, and saving his offensive talent for the powerplay.

Also, unrelated note, but Red Kelly might be the most underrated hockey player of all-time

 

[Sentinel]

The other fallacy is that Lidstrom wa somewhat hurt by teammates splitting Hart votes otherwise he would have been closer. Nonsense. Closest Lidstrom came to a Hart Trophy was roughly 20% of the winners total. Teammate votes did not matter. He never finished ahead of top 10 candidates.

Harvey in his top seasons was a serious candidate for the Hart drawing upwards of 60%of the winners total and finishing ahead of Howe four times in the Hart voting.

That's not what danin is saying. He demonstrated that Lidstrom time after time voted ahead of his teammates in Hart. Harvey almost never did. So which one of them, in fact, is more valuable to his team?

 

[danincanada]

Oh man, come on, we've been over this. Do you not think it is harder to beat a prime Beliveau, Geoffrion and Richard or Yzerman with his offense significantly lower, Fedorov who never gave his all in the regular seasons or Shanahan? Come on, I know you know the answer. The fact that Harvey went to a weak team in the Rangers and still won the Norris and finished 2nd in Hart voting in 1962 should tell you something. Andy Bathgate, a guy who had as many points as Gordie Howe in 9 consecutive years (1962 is part of that) did not get the Hart votes on the Rangers in 1962. Harvey did. Why? Well, I know the answer, but you ought to ask yourself this. No offense to Lidstrom, but he didn't hit that sort of level. We know he didn't hit Bourque's level and Harvey's level was at least Bourque's.

Was Richard really anymore in his prime than Yzerman was? He was 33 when Harvey got his first Hart recognition, with The Rocket finishing higher. This was 10 years after he scored 50 goals.

I’m not sure the 3 Habs were better because none ever played against the 3 Red Wings or even shared the same ice. At the end of the day it’s actually speculation as to who the better players were, as it is with Lidstrom vs. Harvey. If you are sure of it then maybe you’re just not the type of person who likes to question things and it’s pretty obvious the nitpicking only happens when you want it to. Completely different league with well over a decade apart from it being an overlap for the two groups. They were all great in their own eras but I can’t pretend it’s a clear comparison like you seem to suggest. I think the world of Beliveau but I’m still not positive he’s the best player in that group all of the time if they actually share the same ice. They were vastly different eras with vastly different league compositions.

Earlier you kept claiming Harvey was THE GUY with Beliveau so when you posted Hart records I did some nitpicking and only the single time did Harvey actually lead the team in voting and that was when Beliveau missed games. Lidstrom lead his team 5 times so how was Harvey THE GUY on his team while Lidstrom wasn’t? Maybe looking at Hart voting this way wasn’t your intention but it was a good time to circle back to one of your earlier claims.

Lidstrom captained his team after the 3 guys you mentioned were long gone, and those teams weren’t too shabby either in a cap world. To keep claiming Lidstrom was always behind Yzerman and Fedorov really falls short here, not that it didn’t already.

Must I remind you the Hart trophy is not for best player but “most valuable to his team”? Harvey going to the Rangers and helping them improve immensely didn’t mean he was a better player, it just meant voters thought he was the second most valuable “to his team”. If Lidstrom was traded to a weaker team during his prime and helped turned them around he would probably get more Hart fanfare, too. It wouldn’t mean he was actually a better player than when he was with Detroit. Instead he stayed with one team his whole career and we know how strong those teams always were for almost the entirety of his career with him so having great regular seasons and winning just became expected. A lot of times it’s about optics with these things.

How are you so certain about which level players hit when they all hit it at different times with different peers? It’s like you always see absolutes with things that are impossible to actually prove. At least with Bourque and Lidstrom they had a big overlap. With Harvey it’s a huge question mark even though he clearly scored less points (team finishes and adjusted points), didn’t lead his teams in Hart recognition as much (5 to 2) and they had extremely similar careers and accomplishments (with Lidstrom facing a far larger league with at least a far deeper and more diverse talent pool). I think this last part points to more elite talent as competition but you’ll probably never admit that no matter how much it points in that direction. I’ve maintained all along that they were both critical to their teams but you continue to undervalue Lidstrom and over value Harvey and every step of the way you’ve been proven to just be hoping this is true instead of having actually metrics to show it

 

[danincanada]

Another similarity Harvey has with Lidstrom, right? Focusing on defense and transition at even strength, and saving his offensive talent for the powerplay.

Also, unrelated note, but Red Kelly might be the most underrated hockey player of all-time

Yes, yet another similarity between the two and both are different than Bourque in this regard. It just keeps happening with so many examples.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I think Doug Harvey's big advantage offensively was getting to play on the Habs killer PP unit in a time when PP units were forward-heavy. As an ES scorer in that era (I'm using 1952-62 for Harvey's prime based on AS finishes), Harvey did not stand out.

Best ES Point Seasons by Defenders (1952-1962)

Rk	Player	Year	ESP
1	Red Kelly	1954	32
2	Red Kelly	1952	31
	Red Kelly	1953	31
4	Fern Flaman	1957	30
5	JG Talbot	1962	29
	Pierre Pilote	1960	29
	Bill Gadsby	1954	29
	Tim Horton	1962	29
	Bill Gadsby	1962	29
10	JG Talbot	1961	28
	Bill Gadsby	1956	28
12	Marcel Provonost	1955	27
	Red Kelly	1955	27
14	Marcel Provonost	1959	26
	Pierre Pilote	1962	26
	Bill Gadsby	1959	26
17	Allan Stanley	1961	25
	Tom Johnson	1959	25
19	Bob Turner	1959	24
	Tim Horton	1954	24
21	Gus Mortson	1953	23
	Dollard St. Laurent	1958	23
	Marcel Provonost	1960	23
	Tim Horton	1958	23
	Allan Stanley	1960	23
	Hy Buller	1952	23
	Red Kelly	1956	23
	Doug Harvey	1957	23

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It is odd to see a fellow Hab defender like St. Laurent outscore Harvey at ES during a Norris season. In Harvey's off year in 1959, two Hab defenders (Norris winner Johnson and swingman Bob Turner) beat Harvey's career high ES point total. JG Talbot appears to be just a better ES scorer than Harvey during Harvey's final 2 Norris years.

Purely from an offensive standpoint, Doug Harvey was not especially productive.​

St.Laurent was Harvey's Partner in 1957-58. Impressed
management so much that he was left unprotected in the JUNE, 1858 Draft.Taken by Chicago. Albert Langlois his replacement had a similar quirk in the 1960 playoffs as presented by BGE.

As TDMM stated Red Kelly is greatly underrated. However here you forgot to filter out the points Kelly scored as a forward on the PP and ES.

 

[Canadiens1958]

That's not what danin is saying. He demonstrated that Lidstrom time after time voted ahead of his teammates in Hart. Harvey almost never did. So which one of them, in fact, is more valuable to his team?

Sadly you are looking at competition backwards. You do not compete with your teammates. You work with them to win.

So being more valuable than opponents is more important.

Rather fundamental to any team sport.

 

[Sentinel]

Sadly you are looking at competition backwards. You do not compete with your teammates. You work with them to win.

So being more valuable than opponents is more important.

Rather fundamental to any team sport.

True, but that's not how Hart voting works. If you are constantly voted behind your teammates, you cannot be more valuable than them to your team.

 

[blogofmike]

St.Laurent was Harvey's Partner in 1957. Impressed
management so much that he was left unprotected in the JUNE, 1858 Draft.Taken by Chicago. Albert Langlois his replacement had a similar quirk in the 1960 playoffs as presented by BGE.

As TDMM stated Red Kelly is greatly underrated. However here you forgot to filter out the points Kelly scored as a forward on the PP and ES.

Would you not agree that St. Laurent is an odd person to have any kind of ES point lead over Doug Harvey's career high? And Kelly's ES point totals should 100% filter out his points on the PP at the very least.

Another similarity Harvey has with Lidstrom, right? Focusing on defense and transition at even strength, and saving his offensive talent for the powerplay.

​

Here's Lidstrom from a comparable 11-year time frame.

Keep in mind this is a HUGE advantage to Harvey. Harvey's 6-team league would have fewer spots for ALL defenders than Lidstrom's would have for just top pair defenders.

Best ES Point seasons by a Defenceman, 1998-2008

Rk	Player	Year	ESP
1	Sergei Gonchar	2002	38
	Brian Campbell	2007	38
3	Nicklas Lidstrom	2000	37
	Brian Leetch	2001	37
5	Sergei Gonchar	2003	36
6	Nicklas Lidstrom	2008	35
	Scott Niedermayer	2007	35
	Sergei Gonchar	2000	35
	Sandis Ozolinsh	2002	35
	Larry Murphy	1998	35
11	Chris Pronger	2000	33
	Mike Green	2008	33
13	Sergei Zubov	2006	32
14	Eric Desjardins	2000	31
	Oleg Tverdosky	2000	31
	Jay Bouwmeester	2007	31
	Greg De Vries	2003	31
18	Nicklas Lidstrom	2006	30
	Nicklas Lidstrom	2003	30
	Mathieu Schneider	2006	30
	Rob Blake	2000	30
	Phil Housley	1999	30
	Brian Rafalski	2001	30
	Jay Bouwmeester	2006	30

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Lidstrom has teammates Larry Murphy beat him in 1998 and Mathieu Schneider tie him in 2006. Both were regular Lidstrom partners around that time. I think they were paired with Lidstrom in these years but I'll defer to a Wings fan who would know exact years. Nevertheless, while Lidstrom would not look great as an ES scorer vs prime Ray Bourque, he looks very good against Harvey. Lidstrom leads defencemen in ES points twice here and is 1 point back in 2003.

Unlike Doug Harvey, Nicklas Lidstrom appears to have been one of the most productive ES scorers at his position.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Wow, Harvey wasn't anything to write home about on ES, oh boy....

 

[Canadiens1958]

Would you not agree that St. Laurent is an odd person to have any kind of ES point lead over Doug Harvey's career high? And Kelly's ES point totals should 100% filter out his points on the PP at the very least.

​

Here's Lidstrom from a comparable 11-year time frame.

Keep in mind this is a HUGE advantage to Harvey. Harvey's 6-team league would have fewer spots for ALL defenders than Lidstrom's would have for just top pair defenders.

Best ES Point seasons by a Defenceman, 1998-2008

Rk	Player	Year	ESP
1	Sergei Gonchar	2002	38
	Brian Campbell	2007	38
3	Nicklas Lidstrom	2000	37
	Brian Leetch	2001	37
5	Sergei Gonchar	2003	36
6	Nicklas Lidstrom	2008	35
	Scott Niedermayer	2007	35
	Sergei Gonchar	2000	35
	Sandis Ozolinsh	2002	35
	Larry Murphy	1998	35
11	Chris Pronger	2000	33
	Mike Green	2008	33
13	Sergei Zubov	2006	32
14	Eric Desjardins	2000	31
	Oleg Tverdosky	2000	31
	Jay Bouwmeester	2007	31
	Greg De Vries	2003	31
18	Nicklas Lidstrom	2006	30
	Nicklas Lidstrom	2003	30
	Mathieu Schneider	2006	30
	Rob Blake	2000	30
	Phil Housley	1999	30
	Brian Rafalski	2001	30
	Jay Bouwmeester	2006	30

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Lidstrom has teammates Larry Murphy beat him in 1998 and Mathieu Schneider tie him in 2006. Both were regular Lidstrom partners around that time. I think they were paired with Lidstrom in these years but I'll defer to a Wings fan who would know exact years. Nevertheless, while Lidstrom would not look great as an ES scorer vs prime Ray Bourque, he looks very good against Harvey. Lidstrom leads defencemen in ES points twice here and is 1 point back in 2003.

Unlike Doug Harvey, Nicklas Lidstrom appears to have been one of the most productive ES scorers at his position.

Strange that three defencemen Dollard St. Laurent, Bob Turner, Albert Langlois had career highs playing with Doug Harvey. Nuances of a rotating the 4th/5th with the #1. Who gets the long straw.Similar to Murphy and Schneider with Lidstom. Not Hall of fame quality like Murphy.

Do not see mention adjusting for games played. 82 games vs 70. Also you overlooked that 9 of the totals were 2005-06 or later. Lidstrom and his confreres had the advantage of playing without the Red Line off side. Stretch pass to the opposing blueline so a rush was reduced by a pass or two. Great benefit to the first pass defenceman starting in 2005-06.

1959 -60 season Harvey led the NHL with a +37. Langlois was a +32. Lidstrom career high +/- is +43 but in 84 games. adjust to a 70 game RS he is a bit below 37 actually closer to Langlois and Lidstrom managed this playing against ALL defenders than Lidstrom's would face. Doubled edged sword.

 

[Canadiens1958]

True, but that's not how Hart voting works. If you are constantly voted behind your teammates, you cannot be more valuable than them to your team.

Voters do not have access to the game plan though. So much for your point.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Wow, Harvey wasn't anything to write home about on ES, oh boy....

Very one sided presentation that totally ignores how many ESGF a defgenceman was on the ice for.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Must I remind you the Hart trophy is not for best player but “most valuable to his team”? Harvey going to the Rangers and helping them improve immensely didn’t mean he was a better player, it just meant voters thought he was the second most valuable “to his team”. If Lidstrom was traded to a weaker team during his prime and helped turned them around he would probably get more Hart fanfare, too. It wouldn’t mean he was actually a better player than when he was with Detroit. Instead he stayed with one team his whole career and we know how strong those teams always were for almost the entirety of his career with him so having great regular seasons and winning just became expected. A lot of times it’s about optics with these things.

I tend to agree with this point, however the New Jersey Devils’ Martin Brodeur managed to pick up seven top-5 placements in Hart voting, including 3 nominations in this same time frame while winning had also became the expectation in New Jersey. Different players on the Colorado Avalanche nearly swept the trophy for three years during their 7th, 8th, and 9th division titles. It could be done.

If Nicklas Lidstrom is top-10 because Doug Harvey is top-10, then Martin Brodeur is top-10 because Nicklas Lidstrom is top-10. And then we get into the issue of how basing a top-10 argument for an individual player wholly on the positioning of what appears to be a single high-ranked comparable player (due to position or circumstance) is going to open the floodgates.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Must I remind you the Hart trophy is not for best player but “most valuable to his team”? Harvey going to the Rangers and helping them improve immensely didn’t mean he was a better player, it just meant voters thought he was the second most valuable “to his team”. If Lidstrom was traded to a weaker team during his prime and helped turned them around he would probably get more Hart fanfare, too. It wouldn’t mean he was actually a better player than when he was with Detroit. Instead he stayed with one team his whole career and we know how strong those teams always were for almost the entirety of his career with him so having great regular seasons and winning just became expected. A lot of times it’s about optics with these things.

In the same light, Harvey elevated the play of St.Laurent, Turner and Langlois in a fashion similar to how Crosby elevated the play of rethreads, rookies and fringers.

Yet with Lidstrom you have the Andreas Lilja effect in the first round of the 2005-06 playoffs.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Another similarity Harvey has with Lidstrom, right? Focusing on defense and transition at even strength, and saving his offensive talent for the powerplay.

Also, unrelated note, but Red Kelly might be the most underrated hockey player of all-time

You betcha!

Consider he was on 8 Cup winners. In the 50's and 60's. And never played for Montreal.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

That's not what danin is saying. He demonstrated that Lidstrom time after time voted ahead of his teammates in Hart. Harvey almost never did. So which one of them, in fact, is more valuable to his team?

Doesn't this seem to indicate Harvey's teammates were better players than Lidstrom's teammates, rather than Lidstrom was better than Harvey?