Giroux back to center permanently

[mja]

G was definitely impacted in 2016-17, not so sure before that.
2014-15: 36 ES points, 37 PP points, 20:34, xGF 50.02, xGFrel +4.48
2015-16: 38 ES points, 27 PP points, 20:33, xGF 47.22, xGFrel -1.73
2016-17: 26 ES points, 36 PP points, 19:07, xGF 47.68, xGFrel -2.38

Injuries explain 2016-17, but the two previous seasons? A bit of a stretch.
Note that an injured Giroux could still excel on the PP, which shows that total points are misleading, PP points are different from ES points. You can be a 3rd line forward and remain a top PP producer, because Giroux doesn't skate a lot on the PP and can avoid pressure with quick passes.

2016: Flyers general manager Ron Hextall announced that Giroux, along with teammate Shayne Gostisbehere, will have surgery on May 17 to repair his right hip and a bilateral lower abdominal tear.

While he had various injuries before that, none were deemed serious. All hockey players are dinged during the season.
So there's no evidence he was injured in 2014-15, some that he might have been in 2015-16, definitely struggled to recover in 2016-17.
(if you look at 2015-16, no real falloff until April and the playoffs, so when was he injured?)

His play definitely made a huge jump at LW paired with Couts. Some was health, but compare to 2014-15, when he was healthy.

My feeling is he can play well at center in the short-run, but it would not be a good long-term strategy.

1) it would increase the workload of a 31 year old undersized center, and he'd be exposed to more contact and physical play, not optimal for longevity, as a wing he stays on the perimeter and away from traffic for the most part.

2) his defensive limitations would be exposed, he doesn't have great straight line speed and is undersized, attributes that allow him to remain effective offensively aren't as valuable on defense.

In 14-15 he was tied for 10th in league scoring. That wasn’t a down year. That was a low-scoring year league-wide.

He visually looked different than the rest of his career for huge chunks of 15-16 & 16-17. There was no explosiveness to his skating at all and he struggled to find open space.

Also, I’m open to Giroux at either position, but you underrate Giroux’s defensive play. He’s not the Selke caliber guy that some voters seem to think he is but your obsession with size downplays what he’s able to accomplish with the tools he does have. He’s one of the most intelligent players in the league and he’s a total puck hound.

 

[Rich Nixon]

yeah, he should be there.

when he and couturier play together, it's not like he's playing a true LW assignment in the neutral or offensive zone. sure, he likes the left halfwall, but that's always been his jam. he's still the one directing the offense on that line, the forward most likely to swap with a defenseman, and generally picking his way through the zone however he feels.

since the start, it hasn't been as simple as "oh Giroux's a wing now!" it's been mostly "Couturier is C on our side of the red line, Giroux's in charge on theirs." That's obviously effective, but it squeezes the hell out of our depth.

they should be separated, and Couturier should be used in more of a shutdown role again. It's great that he can score if needed, but lots of guys on this roster can do that. he is a uniquely talented defensive center and they need one of those badly. you use your players for what they're best at.

that's not damnation for him or anything, it's just hockey reality. we need a coach who knows how to properly assemble a lineup and distribute its icetime, but if we ever have that we can have Couturier consistently putting up 45-55 points and shutting down the opposition's best. I know that isn't sexy because we all love numbers and Sean is physically capable of putting up sexy numbers, but...Patrick and Giroux are going to put up sexier numbers, always, and they don't have the defensive capability Couturier has.

 

[hatcher]

jvr pushing hard to keep that giroux konecny jvr line going.

It should stay that way.

 

[Lindberg]

It should stay that way.

He just needs players that can actually shoot and keep up with him. Kind of a shame that B. Schenn wasn't really a good fit on his RW/LW. Voracek wasn't ever the answer.

 

[hatcher]

He just needs players that can actually shoot and keep up with him. Kind of a shame that B. Schenn wasn't really a good fit on his RW/LW. Voracek wasn't ever the answer.

G is having a great year. Hopefully JVR works as it did before.

 

[KrazyKat]

Nice to see laughton in such great shape that he is playing on both the 2nd and 4th line

Whoops meant to put Lehtera on the 4th

 

[Philly Fanatik]

It should stay that way.

JVR has got to keep up though!
POWERPLAY specialist...however he needs to contribute 5 on 5

 

[FLYERSFAN18]

I wouldn’t mind trying G at RW and Konecny at LW for a game or two to see how it works

JVR-Couturier-G
Konecny-Patrick-Voracek

See if G has the same abilities at RW and if Konecny can jumpstart Patrick and the second line.

 

[Lotusflower]

The problem with Giroux at center is he'll take more wear and tear, you have to balance the value of center depth v his health.
You might do it temporarily, especially if you think you're going to trade for a 3C or Vorobyev might be ready in the spring.
But next year you want to put Frost at center and G back at LW.

Wear and tear on your franchise player doesnt cut it for me, dead.
Giroux is the franchise. He's the franchise because he plays the hardest position in the game better than almost anyone else in the world.
Play your best player where he can help you the most. That aint on the wing.
When Giroux is no longer one of the 3 best centers on the team then you can move him to wing permanently.

Otherwise why would I play a scrub like Weal in the most important position on the ice over Giroux?
Its that same mentality that led Hak to play VDV over Giroux on the PK because, sure, I want a scrub tasked with stopping the best 5 man offensive unit of a given team every night.

 

[Striiker]

Since some people are either forgetting or intentionally ignoring:

— He was INJURED during (or even before) 2015-2016
— He had surgery in the offseason and didn't get to train or get back to 100%
— He was RECOVERING from the injury/surgery in 2016-2017

Then last year (2017-2018) he was fully recovered - which was visually obvious from the very start of the season - and playing like a monster again.

Still insanely good.
His down years were because of his health, but not declining from age.
Can still play center if needed.
Still easily our best player.
End of story.

 

[dats81]

Claude Giroux is so good that he could play any position other than goaltender and look above average.

 

[David St Hubbins]

on the broadcast, BUndty said G should not move back to center, citing concerns about his d. Now, based just on that single data point I would say the smart move would be to move G to center permanently.

 

[prototypical4thliner]

He is probably still going to get carved up against the elite centers in the league. He can win against most checking lines if a coach goes for that match up, most scoring lines he can probably do more damage than is incurred. But an elite center is going to cave his line in—we saw the disparity against the Pens in the playoffs.

Yeah, the team was overmatched and the coach did us no favors, but, with the exception of a heroic effort by couturier, that line was outplayed. Can our forwards consistently beat that talent level? That is where the team needs to get to.

 

[deadhead]

Patrick and Giroux are going to put up sexier numbers, always, and they don't have the defensive capability Couturier has.

I think you underestimate Patrick.
Watching him, he's got great defensive instincts, breaks up a lot of plays through anticipation.

He's probably a couple years from being a shutdown center due to lack of strength, I was hoping he'd add more muscle this summer, but he's only 20 years old, that should come as he physically matures.
Even with his struggles this season, he's maintained a xGF of 51.92, similar to his 52.45 last season.

 

[deadhead]

Wear and tear on your franchise player doesnt cut it for me, dead.
Giroux is the franchise. He's the franchise because he plays the hardest position in the game better than almost anyone else in the world.
Play your best player where he can help you the most. That aint on the wing.
When Giroux is no longer one of the 3 best centers on the team then you can move him to wing permanently.

TANSTAAFL.

Ask yourself if you want to overwork an undersized forward who'll be 31 in January, or maximize his short and long-term value by rationing his minutes to best effect, and put him in situations where he takes less punishment.

We may have to play him at center this season at times, but he should be back at LW next year.
Hopefully Fletcher can pick up a veteran center at a reasonable price.
Or Vorobyev can come up this spring and win the job he lost on the ice.

I don't want to overwork Couts either given his injury history.
Note that Toronto rotated their three top lines, giving them equal minutes last year.
Not so much this year, but once Nylander gets into game shape, Babcock will probably do the same.

It's tempting for a coach to ride his best players, but while it may make sense in the playoffs, it's counterproductive in the regular season.
That's why you need quality depth.

 

[Jtown]

TANSTAAFL.

Ask yourself if you want to overwork an undersized forward who'll be 31 in January, or maximize his short and long-term value by rationing his minutes to best effect, and put him in situations where he takes less punishment.

We may have to play him at center this season at times, but he should be back at LW next year.
Hopefully Fletcher can pick up a veteran center at a reasonable price.
Or Vorobyev can come up this spring and win the job he lost on the ice.

I don't want to overwork Couts either given his injury history.
Note that Toronto rotated their three top lines, giving them equal minutes last year.
Not so much this year, but once Nylander gets into game shape, Babcock will probably do the same.

It's tempting for a coach to ride his best players, but while it may make sense in the playoffs, it's counterproductive in the regular season.
That's why you need quality depth.

Giroux has the talent and ability to be a stanley cup winning first line center. Coots is that 2nd line center that a cup winning team needs.

First off this team is Schizophrenic. We played our best game of the year , followed immediately 26 hours by our worst game of the year. I just hope hak, flech, and scott understand this team was coming off a brutal back to back before they rush on any decisions and make a judgment on giroux still having first line ability.

 

[BernieParent]

Is Giroux's 102 points the Chicken and Coots 62 Points the Egg... or the other was around?

Giroux's points are the Phoenix and Couturier's are however a Phoenix reproduces.

That being quipped, it does concern me that not only is Giroux back to heavy lifting on the top line but also single-handedly raving to revive the PK.

 

[prototypical4thliner]

Giroux's points are the Phoenix and Couturier's are however a Phoenix reproduces.

That being quipped, it does concern me that not only is Giroux back to heavy lifting on the top line but also single-handedly raving to revive the PK.

Maybe give more es shifts to Patrick. Let him earn the heavier minutes but some shifts with more talented wingers. G can still handle es but can be a game wrecker on special teams, including penalty kill. His presence on the ice on the pk changes the dynamic of the kill. Instead of “oh dear god hold on and hope” there is a bit of “I dare you to make that pass”. It’s refreshing.

 

[Mike1167]

So was G moved to wing cuz of Hextall?

 

[deadhead]

Giroux has the talent and ability to be a stanley cup winning first line center. Coots is that 2nd line center that a cup winning team needs.

I'm not sure that Giroux can handle the top centers on defense anymore, remember, they're either big (Matthews 6'3 223, Backstrom 6'1 210, Scheifele 6'3 207, Dubois 6'3 207) or fast and skilled (Crosby, Point, Eichel). Giroux can play bigger than his size, but give up 4" and 20+ lbs? Giroux can play faster than his straight line speed, but he's not skating with the fast guys in today's NHL.

We really need a trio of Couts, Patrick and Frost, all of whom have good defensive instincts, and allow favorable matchups (Couts' strenght, Frost's speed, Patrick a little of both). But it may take 2-3 years for Patrick and Frost to mature, same with Rubtsov who could center a shutdown checking line. Just about the time the defense hits its stride and Hart is ready to become an elite goaltender! (fingers crossed, knocking on wood . . .)

 

[Deadpool8812]

jvr pushing hard to keep that giroux konecny jvr line going.

JVR needs to be with an elite playmaker. Either Giroux or Voracek. Our dumbass coach has been misusing him all season