Value of: Giordano to Habs

[Spazkat]

You're comparing Weber to Giordano?

I think he's pointing out the absurdity of worrying about Giordano's contract when clearly they have no issue with long contracts for players that are worth is now but are guaranteed to bite them in the ass later. Exhibit A of that is Shea Weber

 

[hockeyheadlines]

I think he's pointing out the absurdity of worrying about Giordano's contract when clearly they have no issue with long contracts for players that are worth is now but are guaranteed to bite them in the ass later. Exhibit A of that is Shea Weber

What's absurd about not wanting another long term contract on our hands?

 

[rhinoshawarma]

Not interested.

 

[Some Other Flame]

Giordano+Jokipakka for Juulsen+McCarron+Emelin+2017 1st round pick

 

[Flameshomer]

Giordano+Jokipakka for Juulsen+McCarron+Emelin+2017 1st round pick

I would definitely do this one.

 

[go4hockey]

Probably:

Byron + Sergachyev + Pacioretty

Holy overpayment batman.

 

[The Great Weal]

Probably:

Byron + Sergachyev + Pacioretty

 

[go4hockey]

I think he's pointing out the absurdity of worrying about Giordano's contract when clearly they have no issue with long contracts for players that are worth is now but are guaranteed to bite them in the ass later. Exhibit A of that is Shea Weber

Just cause they have one long term contract for a much better defenseman, does not mean they should be open to taking on another long contract. That would be asking for trouble shortly down the road.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

You're comparing Weber to Giordano?

Not sure what the giggling is about. They're the same age and have had similar levels of success (Weber was better five years ago, Gio was better two years ago). Major difference I see is that Weber's contract is way worse. Unless you think that slowish physical defencemen tend to age like fine wine (spoiler: they normally don't).

 

[tempest2i]

Not sure what the giggling is about. They're the same age and have had similar levels of success (Weber was better five years ago, Gio was better two years ago). Major difference I see is that Weber's contract is way worse. Unless you think that slowish physical defencemen tend to age like fine wine (spoiler: they normally don't).

One guy has 5 gold medals [WJC, WC, WHC and OLY (x2)]. The other has a a single 7th place finish for the same nation. Please elaborate on how that is "similar".

 

[Starat327]

One guy has 5 gold medals [WJC, WC, WHC and OLY (x2)]. The other has a a single 7th place finish for the same nation. Please elaborate on how that is "similar".

What you're saying is you wouldn't trade Chris Kunitz for Claude Giroux, then?

I'm not saying Giordano and Weber are comparable, but using international play is a terrible way to distinguish worth and success.

 

[hockeyheadlines]

Not sure what the giggling is about. They're the same age and have had similar levels of success (Weber was better five years ago, Gio was better two years ago). Major difference I see is that Weber's contract is way worse. Unless you think that slowish physical defencemen tend to age like fine wine (spoiler: they normally don't).

D'ont be silly, let's ask Babcock.

 

[Mike Hasselhoffman]

I wouldnt do Sergs straight up nor Gally straight up. Hell to both of them. You can have Byron tho

Pretty much. Sergachev and Gallagher are immediate non-starters...Byron is quickly turning into someone that is off the table as well.

Most I'd go is Emelin + Hudon/Andrighetto + 1st

 

[tempest2i]

What you're saying is you wouldn't trade Chris Kunitz for Claude Giroux, then?

I'm not saying Giordano and Weber are comparable, but using international play is a terrible way to distinguish worth and success.

I only used international play as a comparison because it puts into stark contrast how much more successful Shea Weber has been. The discrepancy between the players only increases if you take into account their NHL careers.

However, to answer your question if I were the Pens GM, I wouldn't trade Chris Kunitz for Claude Giroux because a) I don't have 4.5M of cap space to take on Giroux's contract right now and b) it seems excessive to have +26M of cap tied up in my top 3 centers. If I want to keep my job as GM, I'd decline blowing up the reining Stanley Cup champions in order to add a player whose addition will almost certainly ensure I'm paying my 3rd line center more than 8M on the cap.

 

[Zilo44]

Pretty much. Sergachev and Gallagher are immediate non-starters...Byron is quickly turning into someone that is off the table as well.

Most I'd go is Emelin + Hudon/Andrighetto + 1st

Byron??? You do realise you're saying that a guy we claimed on waivers (notwithstanding the fact he is an honest player) is a non starter in discussions for a first pairing D ? Habs could easily replace Byron. We've got Mitchell, Weise and Moore for cheap over the last years and they are all somehow comparable to Byron...

 

[Stuzchuk]

You're comparing Weber to Giordano?

from a OTT P.O.V... lately we had Alfresson then Karlsson...

from a CGY P.O.V... lately they had Iggy then Giordano...

fair enough...?

 

[SmellOfVictory]

One guy has 5 gold medals [WJC, WC, WHC and OLY (x2)]. The other has a a single 7th place finish for the same nation. Please elaborate on how that is "similar".

Success as individuals, not as members of teams. I get tired of having to make this statement every time someone brings up team success, but: a top pairing defenceman takes up less than 10% of a team's total skater TOI (he's 20% of the non-goalie personnel in an average moment, and he plays less than half the game). Team success is borderline irrelevant.

Even if I play along and say that Weber is unquestionably better than Giordano just to appease the Weber fanboys, there still remains the fact that his contract is 60% longer at a cap hit that's 15% higher.

 

[Starat327]

I only used international play as a comparison because it puts into stark contrast how much more successful Shea Weber has been. The discrepancy between the players only increases if you take into account their NHL careers.

However, to answer your question if I were the Pens GM, I wouldn't trade Chris Kunitz for Claude Giroux because a) I don't have 4.5M of cap space to take on Giroux's contract right now and b) it seems excessive to have +26M of cap tied up in my top 3 centers. If I want to keep my job as GM, I'd decline blowing up the reining Stanley Cup champions in order to add a player whose addition will almost certainly ensure I'm paying my 3rd line center more than 8M on the cap.

Giordano's numbers are surprisingly good. The difference isn't nearly as stark as it seems upon first glance. I'd still take Weber myself, but I wouldn't be disappointed at all to have Giordano either.

Also, Giroux is quite adept at playing RW as well. It's where he started when he came in to the league. However, that wasn't really the point. It's more so that international success doesn't dictate how good a player is. Giroux couldn't make team Canada, despite outscoring and outplaying roughly 90% of the team over the past several years. International play is as much a political game as anything ( and the recent US team at WCH proves that even moreso).

 

[tempest2i]

Success as individuals, not as members of teams. I get tired of having to make this statement every time someone brings up team success, but: a top pairing defenceman takes up less than 10% of a team's total skater TOI (he's 20% of the non-goalie personnel in an average moment, and he plays less than half the game). Team success is borderline irrelevant.

Even if I play along and say that Weber is better than Giordano just to appease the Weber fanboys, there still remains the fact that his contract is 60% longer at a cap hit that's 15% higher.

Even if we only consider individual achievements, Weber is the far better player. Weber has a lot more individual accolades than Gio. Like All-star games and first/second team NHL all-stars selections.

At the end of the day you would expect the better player to be signed to a longer contract that pays him more money. This is exactly the case between these two players.

Both contracts are going to be ugly in the coming years, at least Weber will have done more in his career to justify his.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Even if we only consider individual achievements, Weber is the far better player. Weber has a lot more individual accolades than Gio. Like All-star games and first/second team NHL all-stars selections.

At the end of the day you would expect the better player to be signed to a longer contract that pays him more money. This is exactly the case between these two players.

Both contracts are going to be ugly in the coming years, at least Weber will have done more in his career to justify his.

You're right, and I retract my original statement: Weber has a stronger history than Giordano. However, I think over the past three years, they've been somewhat equivalent players (I think Giordano has been better, but I won't argue it), and based on that, his contract looks much better. I understand why Weber is getting as much as he is, because of that long history, but I don't think he'll age well, and therefore the extra money and term is going to be that much worse.

Assuming Gio doesn't immediately fall off a cliff, I would guess he'll have a couple of years on that contract where it looks pretty rough. In Weber's case, it could be like five years, if not more. When you pay a guy based too much on history and reputation you run a huge risk of a Toews-type contract.

 

[A Loyal Dog]

One guy has 5 gold medals [WJC, WC, WHC and OLY (x2)]. The other has a a single 7th place finish for the same nation. Please elaborate on how that is "similar".

Boom! Exactly!!

Also, Weber is still top pairing LD in world championships, etc.

 

[hockeyheadlines]

You're right, and I retract my original statement: Weber has a stronger history than Giordano. However, I think over the past three years, they've been somewhat equivalent players (I think Giordano has been better, but I won't argue it), and based on that, his contract looks much better. I understand why Weber is getting as much as he is, because of that long history, but I don't think he'll age well, and therefore the extra money and term is going to be that much worse.

Assuming Gio doesn't immediately fall off a cliff, I would guess he'll have a couple of years on that contract where it looks pretty rough. In Weber's case, it could be like five years, if not more. When you pay a guy based too much on history and reputation you run a huge risk of a Toews-type contract.

So, now you're Dr. Spock? Calgary has Giordano, Montreal has Weber and that's about it.

 

[Legend123]

The saying ever since MTL acquired him and never mentioned before that "Weber is declining heavily, he sucks". Yet he is the early favorite for the Norris and has shown no signs of slowing down.

 

[Spazkat]

The saying ever since MTL acquired him and never mentioned before that "Weber is declining heavily, he sucks". Yet he is the early favorite for the Norris and has shown no signs of slowing down.

Of course he is. That's been the (very vocal) media narrative since the trade happened. Yet another guy that's "due for one" even if is as a lifetime achievement award.

 

[bert]

Your not getting Sergs for either players. If you want Sergs, Habs would want.... idk... nothing is of interest asides Bennet, Monahan and Gaudreau. Maybe Brodie. But 8 years older, so nah.

Habs fans have massively overvalued almost all of their players in this thread.

Dont ask for Giordano who has been an unbelievable player the last 5 years then expect to get him without giving anything up.

Sergachev while a great prospect isnt the second coming, Brodie has much more value to think otherwise is crazy talk. Proven top pairing D men over a guy who hasnt done it yet is not how it works.