General 2021 Stanley Cup Playoffs Talk

[TaLoN]

That's not the same situation. Tampa would have had to give him up without taking any cap back, something most teams couldn't do, and wouldn't want to. Carolina took on cap in the Rask deal. Then, if Tampa managed to dump Johnson, they still would have had to dump another 5M player just to be compliant.

As I said, Tyler Johnson and Goodrow are the likely guys gone, with another not as obvious lower paid player to make up the difference. I'm still confident they would've managed to do so.

They still have Kucherov, they still have Stamkos, They still have Hedman, They still have Vasilevski, all to go with McDonaugh, Sergachev, Point, Cirelli, Cernak, Palat etc.

I don't think it would've been as difficult this past year as many make out. I still think they come out clearly the best team in the league.

 

[AKL]

As I said, Tyler Johnson and Goodrow are the likely guys gone, with another not as obvious lower paid player to make up the difference. I'm still confident they would've managed to do so.

They still have Kucherov, they still have Stamkos, They still have Hedman, They still have Vasilevski, all to go with McDonaugh, Sergachev, Point, Cirelli, Cernak, Palat etc.

Again, you're talking about shedding 6M, and you still have to replace those with 1.5M at least. This is a roster that's at 98M, 16M above cap. Kucherov makes 9.5M that they cleared entirely. You've approached 2/3rds of that in your scenario. You're not close.

Yes, they still have Kucherov, Stamkos, Point, Hedman and Vasilevski, but there's a very good chance they need to move at least one of the other guys, if not two, depending on which player they move.

They have 11 forwards, 5 defensemen and 1 goalie on the roster for the 2021-22 season right now, and their cap space is -5M. They needed to lose way more than Tyler Johnson and a fourth liner to be compliant last season.

 

[TaLoN]

Again, you're talking about shedding 6M, and you still have to replace those with 1.5M at least. This is a roster that's at 98M, 16M above cap. Kucherov makes 9.5M that they cleared entirely. You've approached 2/3rds of that in your scenario. You're not close.

Yes, they still have Kucherov, Stamkos, Point, Hedman and Vasilevski, but there's a very good chance they need to move at least one of the other guys, if not two, depending on which player they move.

Tyler Johnson $5m, Goodrow $4m, plus another $1.5m is all they need to cover for Kucherov coming back and having some scrubs in their place which is what everyone is complaining about.

Having other players on LTIR is meaningless if they never play IMO.

Edit: Sorry, was mixing Goodrow and Killorn... it's Killorn that wouldn't have been there.

 

[AKL]

Tyler Johnson $5m, Goodrow $4m, plus another $1.5m is all they need to cover for Kucherov coming back and having some scrubs in their place which is what everyone is complaining about.

Having other players on LTIR is meaningless if they never play IMO.

Am I missing a Goodrow contract where he was somehow at a 4M cap hit and not a 925k cap hit?

 

[TaLoN]

Am I missing a Goodrow contract where he was somehow at a 4M cap hit and not a 925k cap hit?

See my edit, I was mixing Goodrow and Killorn in my head... Killorn was the player I meant - had this conversation on the cup board a while ago with some Tampa fans, they had said Johnson, Killorn and some other player (possibly Goodrow) would've been gone.

I agreed they'd still be the best team in the league at that point.

 

[AKL]

See my edit, I was mixing Goodrow and Killorn in my head... Killorn was the player I meant - had this conversation on the cup board a while ago with some Tampa fans, they had said Johnson, Killorn and some other player (possibly Goodrow) would've been gone.

I agreed they'd still be the best team in the league at that point.

Killorn was a very important player for them this season. I agree they'd still probably be the best team if they replaced Johnson, Killorn and one of their fourth liners with league minimum guys, but it certainly wouldn't have been as inconsequential as you make it out to be. Not to mention, they would have had to pay teams to take those guys, which plays a part in their success long term.

 

[TaLoN]

Killorn was a very important player for them this season. I agree they'd still probably be the best team if they replaced Johnson, Killorn and one of their fourth liners with league minimum guys, but it certainly wouldn't have been as inconsequential as you make it out to be. Not to mention, they would have had to pay teams to take those guys, which plays a part in their success long term.

I still think they win the cup regardless though.

The Cap isn't there to prevent teams who are good at drafting and developing talent from doing so. It's to stop teams from stealing top players from other teams as much as possible, allowing all teams to be competitive financially/salary-wise.

Tampa didn't go out and sign anyone with that money on LTIR, they utilized the talent they already had in-house and I say props to them for it.

It's not like how others make it out... they don't have superstars because of the money over the cap. They have those already.

 

[Digitalbooya]

You seriously believe that they don't win the cup even without those guys?

As for getting rid of Tyler Johnson... Carolina got rid of a much worse player in Rask... you don't think if it was absolutely on the line they couldn't have moved a much better player in Johnson?

I never said they don't win without those guys. But you're also assuming that Tyler Johnson will 1) waive his full no trade clause 2) be traded with 0 cap coming back in a flat cap world. What happens to your plan if Johnson says **** no to being traded? What about the part where Tampa would obviously have to pay assets to get rid of someone like Johnson?

 

[2Pair]

As I said, Tyler Johnson and Goodrow are the likely guys gone, with another not as obvious lower paid player to make up the difference. I'm still confident they would've managed to do so.

They still have Kucherov, they still have Stamkos, They still have Hedman, They still have Vasilevski, all to go with McDonaugh, Sergachev, Point, Cirelli, Cernak, Palat etc.

I don't think it would've been as difficult this past year as many make out. I still think they come out clearly the best team in the league.

No, they wouldn't. And that's the entire point that you're missing

 

[TaLoN]

I never said they don't win without those guys. But you're also assuming that Tyler Johnson will 1) waive his full no trade clause 2) be traded with 0 cap coming back in a flat cap world. What happens to your plan if Johnson says **** no to being traded? What about the part where Tampa would obviously have to pay assets to get rid of someone like Johnson?

It was my understanding he was already open to being traded, but it never became urgent and thus Tampa stopped looking once it was clear Kucherov needed surgery because rehab wasn't improving the situation.

No, they wouldn't. And that's the entire point that you're missing

All of those bolded players would still likely be there.

This is all speculation though, so if you disagree, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Digitalbooya]

I still think they win the cup regardless though.

The Cap isn't there to prevent teams who are good at drafting and developing talent from doing so. It's to stop teams from stealing top players from other teams as much as possible, allowing all teams to be competitive financially/salary-wise.

Tampa didn't go out and sign anyone with that money on LTIR, they utilized the talent they already had in-house and I say props to them for it.

It's not like how others make it out... they don't have superstars because of the money over the cap. They have those already.

Cirelli, Cernak, and Sergachev were all able to be signed and remain cap compliant as a result of Kucherov on LTIR.

The cap is about everyone having a fair shot of developing a competitive roster, where big cash cow teams like Toronto and Montreal can't outspend everyone for every good player. Btw, 3/4 of Tampa's D were trades (representing $14m+ at the moment). Gourde and Johnson ($10m+) were signed.

 

[2Pair]

It was my understanding he was already open to being traded, but it never became urgent and thus Tampa stopped looking once it was clear Kucherov needed surgery because rehab wasn't improving the situation.

All of those bolded players would still likely be there.

This is all speculation though, so if you disagree, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

For the Lightning to have been cap compliant this year you're looking at moving at least 3 of these names-
Palat
Gourde
Cirelli
Killorn
McDonagh
Segachev
That's not something that any team just brushes off

 

[TaLoN]

Cirelli, Cernak, and Sergachev were all able to be signed and remain cap compliant as a result of Kucherov on LTIR.

The cap is about everyone having a fair shot of developing a competitive roster, where big cash cow teams like Toronto and Montreal can't outspend everyone for every good player. Btw, 3/4 of Tampa's D were trades (representing $14m+ at the moment). Gourde and Johnson ($10m+) were signed.

And they still could've been signed had Johnson and Killorn been moved.

 

[Digitalbooya]

And they still could've been signed had Johnson and Killorn been moved.

The point is they didn’t have to move them and then when their $9.5m player came back they didn’t need to be cap compliant.

 

[TaLoN]

The point is they didn’t have to move them and then when their $9.5m player came back they didn’t need to be cap compliant.

Because there is no salary paid in the post season.

The only reason he missed the entire regular season was because it was 56 games instead of 82.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Because there is no salary paid in the post season.

The only reason he missed the entire regular season was because it was 56 games instead of 82.

That doesn’t excuse why cap hits are not used and cap compliance is not required. Cap hit is not the same thing as salary.

Tampa would have been *forced* to make moves just to be cap compliant, which could disrupt the entire team structure. It’s the same thing this offseason where they are millions over the cap with a roster of only 17 players at the moment.

 

[TaLoN]

That doesn’t excuse why cap hits are not used and cap compliance is not required. Cap hit is not the same thing as salary.

Tampa would have been *forced* to make moves just to be cap compliant, which could disrupt the entire team structure. It’s the same thing this offseason where they are millions over the cap with a roster of only 17 players at the moment.

It's the same reason teams can afford to trade for higher salary players at the deadline. The cap is a daily calculated number, savings can accumulate through the season. Every team benefits from this process.

Once the season ends, salary cap calculation has been met, everyone is compliant.

I am perfectly fine with this. I see no reason to change.

This rule is in place so a high paid player having a season ending injury doesn't automatically bury a team with no means to try to overcome.

The salary cap isn't supposed to be a set of handcuffs in such a situation. The team with the injured player is always better off if said player was never injured in the first place. Very few teams have the talent depth that Tampa has and would be devastated to lose a player ot Kucherov's caliber.

Everyone is just upset because they're better at drafting and developing players than everyone else, thus could actually absorb that and still be a great team utilizing their own talent.

I'd be there with you if they went out in free agency and brought in $9.5m in talent from elsewhere, but they just kept their own because the season was shortened. Props to them.

Now they have to get compliant before next season.

Btw - in 2015, when the Kane incident happened, Tampa was one of only 1 or 2 teams in the entire league to protest the situation and ask for change. All other teams claimed that the rule played out exactly as intended. I agree that's exactly what the rule exists for as well and why I have no problems with it.

Now Tampa uses the same rule the rest of the league says performed as intended. Nothing wrong with that either IMO.

 

[GuerinUp]

Queue LTIR Kucherov (fractured rib) + killorn (broken fibula)

 

[TaLoN]

Queue LTIR Kucherov (fractured rib) + killorn (broken fibula)

Nobody misses a 82 game season for a broken rib.

Broken fibula, could miss 2 years. Ask Foster.

Edit: nope that was a Femur, fibula again only 8 weeks.

 

[GuerinUp]

Nobody misses a 82 game season for a broken rib.

Broken fibula, could miss 2 years. Ask Foster.

Edit: nope that was a Femur, fibula again only 8 weeks.

im aware, it was satire

 

[Digitalbooya]

This rule is in place so a high paid player having a season ending injury doesn't automatically bury a team with no means to try to overcome.

Then maybe the solution is the players iced for games can't exceed the cap ceiling. Gives you the flexibility of going over the cap but also has a fairness aspect to it for all the other teams.

 

[Minnewildsota]

Nobody misses a 82 game season for a broken rib.

Broken fibula, could miss 2 years. Ask Foster.

I was just about to say, I'm pretty sure it was his femur but you got your edit in

 

[TaLoN]

Then maybe the solution is the players iced for games can't exceed the cap ceiling. Gives you the flexibility of going over the cap but also has a fairness aspect to it for all the other teams.

LTIR is there for everyone to use. If injuries happen they happen. LTIR is 10 games or more.

Nobody wants injuries, but cap management through them can be an art too.