Gay (LGBT) posters on HFBoards?

[Megustaelhockey]

Good back and forth on this topic. I appreciate that people can disagree without being disagreeable.

 

[nystromshairstylist]

I can't wait for the day when the gay athletes in our league can be themselves.

They already are, and have been for years:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCWz9U0MtoI

To be crass, I have to admit that there is no daylight between my opinion and Howard Stern's when it comes to lesbians...can't get enough of them

That said, I live in NYC, and am literally surrounded by LGBT - and couldn't really care less..most of them are as rude as any of us other New Yawkers...

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'm fine with not ridiculing people over their opinion;
...
Would you want to open up minds to more discussion than "I was raised this way" / "buddy in the sky doesn't like Joey"

There was roughly one paragraph's worth of text between your saying you shouldn't ridicule people for their beliefs, and your actually ridiculing someone's beliefs, albeit in a subtle and possibly unconscious manner.

Illustrative of how difficult it is to practice what we preach when it comes to tolerance. And that applies to both sides of the debate.

 

[SaintMorose]

There was roughly one paragraph's worth of text between your saying you shouldn't ridicule people for their beliefs, and your actually ridiculing someone's beliefs, albeit in a subtle and possibly unconscious manner.

Illustrative of how difficult it is to practice what we preach when it comes to tolerance. And that applies to both sides of the debate.

My apologies I was trying to capture an essense of that arguement without putting it out there as "God/Zues/Alah or whomever hates you" as I assumed that would not go over well. I wasn't aware "buddy in the sky" is something seen as hurtful (If someone wants to pm me an explaination much appreciated) I'll avoid it.

 

[tarheelhockey]

My apologies I was trying to capture an essense of that arguement without putting it out there as "God/Zues/Alah or whomever hates you" as I assumed that would not go over well. I wasn't aware "buddy in the sky" is something seen as hurtful (If someone wants to pm me an explaination much appreciated) I'll avoid it.

It's not so much hurtful, as condescending. The reason should be obvious -- you're characterizing people's concept of "god" as a "buddy in the sky" (which by extension implies an imaginary friend).

I'm not trying to call you out individually, but I do think that your phrasing illustrated the problem of people not understanding each other's perspective. What might seem like common-sense from one person's perspective (gay behavior is inappropriate, spiritual beings are imaginary) may be terribly offensive from another person's perspective. And it's hard to have a productive dialogue in a situation where people are saying offensive things, even if they aren't intended to be offensive. The only effective solution I've seen is to make a serious and honest effort to experience multiple perspectives in our daily lives, to the point that respect for both sides just comes naturally and our language follows suit.

 

[SaintMorose]

It's not so much hurtful, as condescending. The reason should be obvious -- you're characterizing people's concept of "god" as a "buddy in the sky" (which by extension implies an imaginary friend).

I'm not trying to call you out individually, but I do think that your phrasing illustrated the problem of people not understanding each other's perspective. What might seem like common-sense from one person's perspective (gay behavior is inappropriate, spiritual beings are imaginary) may be terribly offensive from another person's perspective. And it's hard to have a productive dialogue in a situation where people are saying offensive things, even if they aren't intended to be offensive. The only effective solution I've seen is to make a serious and honest effort to experience multiple perspectives in our daily lives, to the point that respect for both sides just comes naturally and our language follows suit.

Well I'm probably not conveying what could be a serious argument for treating people differently (and carries over into aspects of our culture like hockey) very well when I use a less than serious tone to summarize.

And that could very well be my fault for not understanding the rationale behind it as when I hear religious reasons my current understanding is well God* says it's bad and so it is bad and that's all I really put out there with my comment.

If someone is able to better explain the rationale behind it (and again might be better via pm if it's something that would really be off-topic or derailling to the thread). I would appreciate it so that I don't might the same mistake going forward.

In the end honestly I still don't like that we're at a point where people feel they can't do something I assume we all enjoy like play hockey and at the same time feel like they can't be loved for who they are, and I hope we aren't far from every creed knowing they are welcome at the rink.

 

[njdevscup30]

I can't fault people for having opinions shaped by their influences growing up. I know myself in high school I grew up in a moderate-conservative town and was a little weirded out by gay people and given the vote to legalize gay marriage, I may have voted against. My views have changed a lot over the last 7 years or so and am not only a supporter, but feel that the discrimination of the LGBT community is one of the biggest problems and disappointments I see in this country.

The good news is that support of gay rights is growing and there are lots of people like me who have become or are becoming completely comfortable around gay people. I think it's just a matter of time before professional athletes start coming out, and when they do I don't think it will be a problem.

 

[Slats432]

It is different for those of us in our mid 40s. The conditioning comes from years of influence by peers, elders etc. Acceptance comes in time as generations get older and young people generally find ways to be more tolerant.

That said, I am an ally as well....and as a ref, this past weekend I gave a player and goalie both unsportsmanlike penalties for gay slurs.

 

[Jarick]

I don't really know why this thread is in The Rink...seems more political or just general lounge talk?

We talked about it a bit here in terms of players getting taunted or picked on.

I play on a co-ed rec team full of grown-ups who don't use slurs. We have one sub who's gay and scrimmaged a few times with a gay team. We're all just hockey players. Sexual orientation has no bearing on anything for me.

Personally (and politically I guess since that's what this topic has become), I support gay marriage and rights. I also respect those whose religion or faith or morality does not.

 

[TheGudge]

Then they can equally give you "no respect" for your beliefs. Why is your belief more correct or important then theirs?



Think about how ridiculous your statement about that is. You imply its bad for people to hate and impose their beliefs in the name of religion, however, its ok for you to hate and impose your beliefs on them because you dont believe in religion?

Again, why is your opinion or belief any better or give you more right to impose it on anyone just because you dont do it in the name of religion?

There has been an almost equal attack on religion in recent years as there has been religious attacks on the atheists.

Neither party is right and has the right to impose their beliefs on anyone that does not agree.

In our society though, we have laws and majority rule. If the majority decide that gay marriage is ok, then fine and those that do not believe in it will simply be allowed to not practice it.

However, if the majority decide they do not want it, then those that believe in it need to sit back and accept it, just as they'd want those against it would accept it if it becomes legal.

You cant have it both ways. If you want them to respect your beliefs, then you NEED to respect theirs. Simple as that.

All that said, I'm not choosing either side and am simply playing devils advocate and get angry when someone says they dont respect someone elses beliefs while arguing to make them respect their own because they think they're more right.

I'm not religious, but respect their beliefs having grown up Catholic. I couldnt care less about gay marriage, my life goes on either way. I understand the religious beliefs and have three gay uncles so can understand their point of view as well.

The bottom line is statements like I quoted are just as ignorant as religious people that cant see the other side. We can all live by the morals and beliefs we see fit, but have to understand not everyone will see it the same way and we need to respect them and their beliefs just as much as we hold dear to ours.

So much fail lol...

I know you're trying to play devils advocate, but seriously educate yourself before spouting off trash like this.

Got a good laugh at you trying to play the victim card here, because there's sure no hate or beliefs being imposed when it's just wanting people to be treated equally like everybody else. That's like saying punching a guy in the face who is trying to rob you is assault.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/politician+tortured+before+murder/8055832/story.html

Name me the last anti-gay marriage advocate to be beaten, tortured, and murdered for what they believe in? Nothing eh... Surprising really, I mean seriously how the **** has no one done a drive by at a Westboro rally ala 'God Bless America' lol...

And when it come to respecting beliefs, **** em, why really care about someone else's beliefs anyway, people believe in all types of ridiculousness and it really doesn't matter right. That's the whole point of a secular society, we tolerate them all as long as they tolerate each other, and what the collective secular society deems fair and just, like gay marriage.

Also, there is a big difference between a Democracy and a Majoritocracy. A Democracy recognizes the importance of protecting minority rights. This is to prevent violation of human and civil rights of minorities in case there are to many hateful morons who want everyone to be just like them.

But that's just my opinion, not trying to impose on you, just trying to inform you.

 

[7toZulu]

My point is simple. You wont be able to ridicule my "beliefs", because i don't simply "believe" things. Make an educated choice...that's what the Google and the books are for.

 

[Sony Eriksson*]

Not Gay or Bi here but who really cares? With divorce running rampant in our society who gives a crap if two men or two women love each other. It is not our place to judge or put labels on two individuals that truly accept and honor the sanctity of marriage. Its 2013 people...its time to get you head out of the dirt and realize all you are doing is replacing the racial hatred for African Americans throughout history for the LGBT hatred.

 

[JoelWarlord]

Then they can equally give you "no respect" for your beliefs. Why is your belief more correct or important then theirs?

Think about how ridiculous your statement about that is. You imply its bad for people to hate and impose their beliefs in the name of religion, however, its ok for you to hate and impose your beliefs on them because you dont believe in religion?

The difference is the gay community isn't imposing anything on anybody. Gay marriage is about allowing gay people to get married, which doesn't change whether or not straight religious people can get married. If you don't like gay marriage, don't marry someone of the same sex, there's no "war" here and it's not "picking a side". It's justice vs. injustice.

Two gay people getting married doesn't impact anyone's freedom of religion and it's ridiculous to even suggest that. Does two other men or women getting married to each other stop anyone from going to church, preaching their beliefs in public, or practicing their faith? Of course not. Religious people (of course not all, but the anti-gay marriage lobby is primarily religious) are actively imposing beliefs on other people preventing them from doing things that do not harm them in any way.

There's a very clear right and wrong on this topic and trying to make it out to be a matter of opinion is absurd.

EDIT: As for the question, I'm a straight male and while there's never been anyone openly gay on any of my hockey teams it's a non issue to me. Honestly I'd be flattered if I saw someone checking me out, male or female.

 

[7toZulu]

Think about how ridiculous your statement about that is. You imply its bad for people to hate and impose their beliefs in the name of religion, however, its ok for you to hate and impose your beliefs on them because you dont believe in religion?


The difference is the gay community isn't imposing anything on anybody. Gay marriage is about allowing gay people to get married, which doesn't change whether or not straight religious people can get married. If you don't like gay marriage, don't marry someone of the same sex, there's no "war" here and it's not "picking a side", it's justice vs. injustice.

Two gay people getting married doesn't impact anyone's freedom of religion and it's ridiculous to even suggest that. Does two other men or women getting married to eachother stop anyone from going to church, preaching their beliefs in public, or practicing their faith? Of course not. Religious people are actively imposing arbitrary beliefs on other people preventing them from doing things that do not harm them in any way.

There's a very clear right and wrong on this topic and trying to make it out to be a matter of opinion is absurd.

Couldn't have said it any better.

 

[Bure]

Don't really feel comfortable with gay males, but I am fine with gay females. I think this is because I don't want gay guys to feel attracted to me. In fact I don't even want them checking me out to see if I am attractive, I find it weird.

I don't choose this, it's just what is natural to me.


-Straight male

 

[TickleMeYandle]

Not Gay or Bi here but who really cares? With divorce running rampant in our society who gives a crap if two men or two women love each other. It is not our place to judge or put labels on two individuals that truly accept and honor the sanctity of marriage.

IMHO, love is a good thing. The world needs MORE love in it, not less.

As a teacher with 18+ years of experience, I've seen a change in the views of young people. My campus has become known as the gay-friendly campus, we have several teachers who are out, and a very strong GSA club. I have quite a few students who are out, and I don't see them treated poorly. I did get after a student today for calling another student a gay slur (the other student was not gay), but when they say it they're not really thinking about the real meaning behind the word - unfortunately, it's being used the same way that people have used "Pejorative Slured" to show something being bad or wrong. It just hasn't occurred to him that it would be hurtful to his friends who may happen to be gay.

 

[Sony Eriksson*]

Don't really feel comfortable with gay males, but I am fine with gay girls. I think this is because I don't want gay guys to feel attracted to me. In fact I don't even want them checking me out to see if I am attractive, I find it weird.

I don't choose this, it's just what is natural to me.


-Straight male

Well then i suggest you move to a deserted island and cut yourself off from society!

 

[Sony Eriksson*]

IMHO, love is a good thing. The world needs MORE love in it, not less.

As a teacher with 18+ years of experience, I've seen a change in the views of young people. My campus has become known as the gay-friendly campus, we have several teachers who are out, and a very strong GSA club. I have quite a few students who are out, and I don't see them treated poorly. I did get after a student today for calling another student a gay slur (the other student was not gay), but when they say it they're not really thinking about the real meaning behind the word - unfortunately, it's being used the same way that people have used "Pejorative Slured" to show something being bad or wrong. It just hasn't occurred to him that it would be hurtful to his friends who may happen to be gay.

I just find that those that are against probably have never spent any time around a gay couple to see how truly in love they are. They are the same person as you and i but just choose differently who they love and have sex with.

 

[Bure]

Well then i suggest you move to a deserted island and cut yourself off from society!

Nope, I just deal with it! Just like I wouldn't want an unattractive women making advances on me.

I'd like to note that most gay people are nice people, I have just had a few in counters with a few guys who made me feel very uncomfortable and they were persistent.

If you keep to your own business I am completely cool with it! Just ask me if I am gay or not and if I say no then walk away.

 

[Sony Eriksson*]

Nope, I just deal with it! Just like I wouldn't want an unattractive women making advances on me.

I'd like to note that most gay people are nice people, I have just had in counters with a few guys who made me feel very uncomfortable and they were persistent.

If you keep to your own business I am completely cool with it! Just ask me if I am gay or not and if I say no then walk away.

A lot of my gay friends will tell you that a guy hitting on a guy is the ultimate form of flattery.

But you state:

I don't even want them checking me out to see if I am attractive

So by that notion you should not venture out into public because there is a less than zero chance that will not happen.

 

[Bure]

A lot of my gay friends will tell you that a guy hitting on a guy is the ultimate form of flattery.

But you state:

So by that notion you should not venture out into public because there is a less than zero chance that will not happen.

Yes, since I do not get what I want at times (gay guys avoiding me), I deal with it. Similarly, I do not get what I want at times (a girl rejects me at the bar), I deal with it.

What I feel is for me to deal with. If I feel uncomfortable, it's for me to handle.

Feeling uncomfortable is a human feeling. Some people are uncomfortable by spiders, some by straight couples showing affection, some by large crowds, some gay guys by women who hit on them etc.

We deal with it.

 

[George Maharis]

Okay this whole religion debate has gotten too far off track. There's no need to comment on the Westboro Baptist Church, murder, and stuff like that. It had NOTHING to do with my post which started it all. And if anyone was offended by my, or any of the posts that resulted from it, I apologize.

I was only saying that I don't like that people who simply say that marriage should be between a man and woman (I don't agree with them), get bashed in the media (another problem) for expressing their opinion and nothing more. It's the reason why I brought up Carrie Prejean.. Perez Hilton had no right to ask her a question, to which she answered truthfully, and then call her a "dumb *****" and convince his fellow judges not to award her the Miss USA crown because he didn't agree with her.

That's all it was. Again, I am sorry if anyone was offended by anything that's come from it.

 

[JoelWarlord]

I was only saying that I don't like that people who simply say that marriage should be between a man and woman (I don't agree with them), get bashed in the media (another problem) for expressing their opinion and nothing more. It's the reason why I brought up Carrie Prejean.. Perez Hilton had no right to ask her a question, to which she answered truthfully, and then call her a "dumb *****" and convince his fellow judges not to award her the Miss USA crown because he didn't agree with her.

That's all it was. Again, I am sorry if anyone was offended by anything that's come from it.

They get bashed because their opinion supports injustice. "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion" doesn't work when it's a discriminatory one.

It's OK if someone doesn't believe gay marriage is right in the eyes of their religion/the eyes of God, but when people say "marriage should be between a man and a woman" they usually mean "I think the law should be marriage should only be between a man and a woman". There's a very clear distinction, the former is logically defensible, the latter isn't.

 

[George Maharis]

I just find that those that are against probably have never spent any time around a gay couple to see how truly in love they are. They are the same person as you and i but just choose differently who they love and have sex with.

Agreed.

I'm close friends with two gay-couples.. one couple is male, the other female. The communication between those two couples is so much stronger than just about any heterosexual couple I know.. simply because it's "easier" for a male to understand another male, and a woman understand another woman. It's the same reason why most men hang out with predominately other men, and women with other women. The only difference is that these two fell in love. It's as simple as that. If you can accept two guys being best friends, you should be able to accept two guys as a couple. The only difference between the two is that the couple cares that much more about each other. What goes on behind closed doors, if anything, is nobodies business but those two people.

 

[George Maharis]

They get bashed because their opinion supports injustice. "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion" doesn't work when it's a discriminatory one.

It's OK if someone doesn't believe gay marriage is right in the eyes of their religion/the eyes of God, but when people say "marriage should be between a man and a woman" they usually mean "I think the law should be marriage should only be between a man and a woman". There's a very clear distinction, the former is logically defensible, the latter isn't.

But she even said that it was because of how she was raised, and then afterwards she was told that she shouldn't talk about her faith to which they pressured her into apologizing for what she said.

Donald Trump, who owns most of the Miss Universe Organization, defended Prejean's answer, saying that "Miss California has done a wonderful job" and that "It wasn't a bad answer, that was simply her belief." He then added that the question was "a bit unlucky" and that no matter which way she answered the question "she was going to get killed".

Several elected officials, including Gavin Newsom, mayor of San Francisco and a prominent supporter of same-sex marriage, and political pundits criticized Hilton and defended Prejean for honestly stating her personal beliefs.

I think that second one says quite a bit.