TSN: Garrioch: Boucher going nowhere

[tony d]

Part of the problem with the team has been letting coaches go as soon as things go bad. Let's put this off as a lost season and come back next yr. with Boucher as our coach, we'll come back better than ever.

 

[Sensung]

Part of the problem with the team has been letting coaches go as soon as things go bad. Let's put this off as a lost season and come back next yr. with Boucher as our coach, we'll come back better than ever.

Not sure what criteria you are basing this statement on.

Nothing Boucher has done this season indicates he is a good fit for this team as it transitions into the pain we have been promised.

 

[DrakeAndJosh]

If he showed any ability to be flexible I'd be totally okay with this. But what's the point of keeping a coach who refuses to adapt?

 

[Karl Prime]

Most of us want some youth injected into the lineup next season. I can't really see Boucher getting behind playing Chabot, White, Chlapik, and Jaros to start the season, plus whatever young guys get called up throughout the season for spot-duty.

 

[billpo]

Never wanted Boucher from the start...then all the stars aligned last year and everyone thought he was a genius...when Boudreau signed with the Wild(because Melnyk was too cheap), Dorion wanted us to believe he wanted Boucher all along...when in reality, we ended up with sloppy seconds...

 

[billpo]

Boucher may not be going anywhere but I feel like there could be a change in assistant coach. PD may bring in someone else to fix either the d-zone coverage or the power play. Someone who could step in if they let Boucher go mid-season.

I thought Boucher was a PP specialist...???

 

[Tuna99]

Here’s my take on his 2 years.

Take 1 - AMAZING. 2 playoff round victories and a game 7 ECF with a #1 overall draft pick in year 2.

Take 2 - NEW BLOOD - ECF and collapse the 2nd year followed by a #8 draft pick that won’t be ready for 2 years. GB has lost the room and burnt out his players with no help on the way.

 

[aragorn]

Even though I'm firmly in the fire Boucher camp I'd be very surprised if Dorion fires Boucher given all the coaches they have already fired. I assume that they have come to the conclusion that the players may be the problem although these are the players this coach wanted for the most part & will look to rebuild. If they do decide to finally start adding prospects to the Ottawa team than that will be the excuse used for why they aren't winning next yr & will peddle hope for the future with this same coach. After all, he is suppose to be good with young players. Most likely it's about money & they can't afford to replace Boucher or Dorion for that matter. And it's quite likely that Boucher will still have Pyatt, Dumont, Thompson & maybe DiDomenico around for next season if they haven't traded them.

If that is the case then you have to wonder whether Karlsson will want to be part of another rebuild? Or whether this owner would be willing to pay a player over $10 million when the team won't be contending for a cup? I'm not sure which way they will go with Karlsson but I do expect them to start moving about half a dozen players between now & the start of next yr at least. And then another half dozen the following yr.

 

[JD1]

in a year when he is struggling with injury I'm not very impressed with Karlsson's attitude this year. He just doesn't seem to give a shit a lot of nights. Everyone can find the energy to play with the puck. That part of his game is pretty good. Without the puck he doesn't seem to have the commitment level to be an effective nhl player some nights. Maybe that's due to him blaming the Boucher system? IDK. I just don't like what I see

 

[Sensinitis]

in a year when he is struggling with injury I'm not very impressed with Karlsson's attitude this year. He just doesn't seem to give a **** a lot of nights. Everyone can find the energy to play with the puck. That part of his game is pretty good. Without the puck he doesn't seem to have the commitment level to be an effective nhl player some nights. Maybe that's due to him blaming the Boucher system? IDK. I just don't like what I see

I’m starting to think he’s been on board the tank the past couple of weeks.

 

[Deku]

in a year when he is struggling with injury I'm not very impressed with Karlsson's attitude this year. He just doesn't seem to give a **** a lot of nights. Everyone can find the energy to play with the puck. That part of his game is pretty good. Without the puck he doesn't seem to have the commitment level to be an effective nhl player some nights. Maybe that's due to him blaming the Boucher system? IDK. I just don't like what I see

It's funny watching him barely try on defense and then seeing him rage when they get scored on/lose.

 

[Wondercarrot]

in a year when he is struggling with injury I'm not very impressed with Karlsson's attitude this year. He just doesn't seem to give a **** a lot of nights. Everyone can find the energy to play with the puck. That part of his game is pretty good. Without the puck he doesn't seem to have the commitment level to be an effective nhl player some nights. Maybe that's due to him blaming the Boucher system? IDK. I just don't like what I see

I don't know, I'm not sure he looks at all the same on offence right now - he virtually never jumps up into the rush, he never takes off and leads the rush, he seems to settle for sharp passes (which are still good) little bursts of speed.
I do agree on D though, he's not especially interested.

 

[jbeck5]

It's funny watching him barely try on defense and then seeing him rage when they get scored on/lose.

Yeah. That's like Bobby's diving to make it look like they're trying hard and care.

 

[JD1]

I don't know, I'm not sure he looks at all the same on offence right now - he virtually never jumps up into the rush, he never takes off and leads the rush, he seems to settle for sharp passes (which are still good) little bursts of speed.
I do agree on D though, he's not especially interested.

last night's one handed neutral zone poke instead of taking the body or even sealing off the boards with the body led to the puck in our net 7 or 8 seconds later. I don't know what to call that other than a lack of interest in trying.

 

[Sensung]

Does anyone think that the owner's treatment of his friends, Turris and Alfie might have anything to do with his effort level?

Factor in Boucher's sacrifice your body and stats system (that cost EK off season ankle surgery) and maybe, just maybe he's decided that he'll save his energy and body for the next coach.

 

[aragorn]

Does anyone think that the owner's treatment of his friends, Turris and Alfie might have anything to do with his effort level?

Factor in Boucher's sacrifice your body and stats system (that cost EK off season ankle surgery) and maybe, just maybe he's decided that he'll save his energy and body for the next coach.

Or the next team that will give him what he is worth?

 

[Bileur]

This is kind of my thought.

We've had so many coaches and coaches that implemented different styles, yet we still have a make the playoffs year followed by a miss the playoffs year. At what point do we think there is an issue with the players and not the coach?

Or is there an issue beyond that. But to me, it seems that it isn't as simple as fire the coach and it will all be fixed.

I’d say the point where you change players rather than coach is the point where we have a GM that does not assemble a fundamentally flawed roster. For years now we’ve been trotting out the same guys, asking Karlsson to hide the blemishes and the pretending the issues that arise when Karlsson isn’t playing at a generational level are related to coaching or players (other than Karlsson) not living up to expectations.

Truth is we have had a decent amount of player turnover. In the last few years we’ve lost Turris, Zib, Methot, MacArthur, Spezza, Alfredsson. What we haven’t had is a significant shift in management perspective. We went from Murray to his mentee who seemed to keep the ship going in the same direction. How long have we been looking for « a top 6 forward » (unsuccessfully I might add). All the while we’ve been pretty obviously missing a top 4 defenseman for seemingly the past decade (with the possible exception of last season). Unfortunately we’ve now decided to extend our GM, despite a very poor track record, and we look to be lineing ourseves up to scape goat another star out of town.

 

[pepty]

This is kind of my thought.

We've had so many coaches and coaches that implemented different styles, yet we still have a make the playoffs year followed by a miss the playoffs year. At what point do we think there is an issue with the players and not the coach?

Or is there an issue beyond that. But to me, it seems that it isn't as simple as fire the coach and it will all be fixed.

This is a popular angle especially on Team 1200 but it is bogus.

Most of those coaching changes were done when none of the present players were on the team. There has been a complete turnover.

Alfie, Spezza, Phillips, Neil and others were here here when Jacques Martin was coach which he was for 8 or 9 years.. Then he was fired and in came Murray and then Paddock and then Hartsburg and then Murray again and then Clouston

Do you think the payers suddenly changed Do you think they should have kept Hartsburg for instance?

The players here now have been here for the tail end of the Clouston years. Alfie was the franchise player and captain at the beginning at that time until the beginningof the Maclean era and when he left was replaced by Spezza who was captain and set the tone.. At the end of that year Murray issued a warning to Maclean so he was dead man walking until he was finally fired. Alfie, Phillips and Spezza Neil were the core of that team. None of them are here anymore.

Cameron was Melnyks choice and was a mistake. There have been 3 coaches since Maclean came including Boucher. That is 3 coaches in 7 years. That is not unusual.

Boucher is following the same pattern he has followed everywhere. Unless he can change which seems unlikely, we can expect more of the same next year.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

Yeah, you could kinda see this coming as Chris "I write for the Athletic, please sub to the Athletic" Stevenson was saying he expects the Senators to be back in the playoffs next year and that they were one goal away.
The team cannot afford a coach like Quenneville or Babcock so it must rely on luck and up-fringe goaltending.
Our only hope as fans is that the Senators tank next year and then the finger finally gets pointed at Dorion. Once Dorion is done, the team makes an outside hire and the decks get cleared.

The problem starts with management being too attached to replacement-level players, these players get overpaid and then we suffer because of lack of speed and skill. We need Dorion to start being hard-hearted and kick guys who cannot skate to the curb. And fast.

 

[Micklebot]

Part of the problem with the team has been letting coaches go as soon as things go bad. Let's put this off as a lost season and come back next yr. with Boucher as our coach, we'll come back better than ever.

Alternatively, Many of our coaches have been great in their first year or two; our issue may very well be not changing fast enough:

Clouston 63-43-10 in his first 116
MacLean 66-48-16 in his first 130
Cameron 32-15-8 in his first 55
Boucher 44-28-10 in his first 82

Just got to cut bait earlier and we've got a good thing going!

 

[JD1]

Does anyone think that the owner's treatment of his friends, Turris and Alfie might have anything to do with his effort level?

Factor in Boucher's sacrifice your body and stats system (that cost EK off season ankle surgery) and maybe, just maybe he's decided that he'll save his energy and body for the next coach.

no I don't think so at all. Alfie was a UFA. Turris got traded and the incoming player was considered an upgrade and more expensive. Many coachest preach shot blocking including a few long time successful coaches. They say it all the time "we'r professionals" and trading a guy like Turris in the last year of his deal is a fact of life and something you have to deal with in order to earn millions playing hockey.

 

[megalomania]

I've never liked Boucher as a coach so my judgment might be unfair, but I still find it baffling that he was hired in the first place. It just doesn't make much sense to me considering the circumstances.

Dorion must have known that he'd have to manage this team on a strict budget for years to come. He doubtlessly also knows that his strength and that of management in general is identifying young talent. Additionally he should be aware of some general principles, like that owing to the way the RFA and UFA system works, you generally get the best performance-to-cost ratio from young players on their ELC or their first RFA contract. Furthermore, you would assume that younger players are on average speedier and have more energy than more established players, if for no other reason than from not having had a few minor or major injuries that have left their toll on the body. Not the least, it's been obvious for years that the NHL in general trends towards more speed and skill.

The obvious conclusion from all this would be building a team around speed and forecheck where young players fill depth roles in their first two or three seasons and then get more important roles to replace more established players (who the team can't afford anymore) for another few years before either becoming part of the core or being replaced themselves, thus perpetually rejuvenating your roster with cheap young players. This is even more obvious considering there was already a core of Karlsson, Hoffman and Stone of whom two are very fast and two are very smart players.

Instead he signs a coach that relies exclusively and stubbornly on a defensive, mostly reactionary, passive system and who has an above-average aversion to playing younger players and prospects even compared to your usual NHL coach.

As much as I dislike Boucher, ultimately the situation the Sens are in is mostly at the hands of management and ownership. Coaches and players have changed a lot over the past few years, whereas management hasn't. Dorion's job ain't easy considering the budget, but the roster has been and continues to be fundamentally flawed and he has made things worse by how he tried to fix them. He's now managed the Sens into a situation where he can either continue patching along as the goes, without any hope of turning this core into a real contender, or try to rebuild while already having traded crucial picks. I don't see how anyone can blame fans for seeing little hope for the foreseeable future.

 

[Sensung]

no I don't think so at all. Alfie was a UFA. Turris got traded and the incoming player was considered an upgrade and more expensive. Many coachest preach shot blocking including a few long time successful coaches. They say it all the time "we'r professionals" and trading a guy like Turris in the last year of his deal is a fact of life and something you have to deal with in order to earn millions playing hockey.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I was referencing Alfie having to deal with Melnyk in the front office and leaving the organization for a 2nd time.

Turris was traded and that in and of itself is not unusual. What is unusual is that he was so bothered by Melnyk interfering with the negotiation/trade that he and his wife called out our owner on the way out the door.

If you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend that Eugene isn't a MASSIVE problem, then that is your right.

My money says that the team is fed up with Melnyk, his cheapness, his bullshit, the front office revolving door and the shitty way he treats everyone.

 

[Here I Pageau Again]

I’d say the point where you change players rather than coach is the point where we have a GM that does not assemble a fundamentally flawed roster. For years now we’ve been trotting out the same guys, asking Karlsson to hide the blemishes and the pretending the issues that arise when Karlsson isn’t playing at a generational level are related to coaching or players (other than Karlsson) not living up to expectations.

Truth is we have had a decent amount of player turnover. In the last few years we’ve lost Turris, Zib, Methot, MacArthur, Spezza, Alfredsson. What we haven’t had is a significant shift in management perspective. We went from Murray to his mentee who seemed to keep the ship going in the same direction. How long have we been looking for « a top 6 forward » (unsuccessfully I might add). All the while we’ve been pretty obviously missing a top 4 defenseman for seemingly the past decade (with the possible exception of last season). Unfortunately we’ve now decided to extend our GM, despite a very poor track record, and we look to be lineing ourseves up to scape goat another star out of town.

I'd definitely agree with this.

For me, I just don't think firing coach after coach after coach is really solving anything. This had been an issue for the last 7-8 years. It isn't coaching. Personally I do believe it is a bit on the core players and a large amount of blame should be put on the management system.

All this being said, it isn't often that teams in the NHL succeed these days without getting top 3 picks ala tanking and a bit of luck. So I'm not sure what we could reasonably have done to better our team without top picks or desirable market.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Three pages of discussion based on Garrioch's "feeling" that Boucher is staying?

Ok.