Post-Game Talk: GAME ONe '17 | Canucks 3, Oilers 2 | Welcome to the Horvat show ft. Derek Dorsett(????)

[RobertKron]

I don't disagree. However the funny thing is over the long haul a bad possession team much more often than not is also giving up more quality chances not just shots from the outside. And honestly, the back half of the game the Oilers had some excellent chances. As mentioned a couple of times in particular they over passed looking for the highlight. Markstrom played very well.

Perhaps I'm in the minority...I'm ok with that...but I don't believe that was that great of a shutdown game from that line in terms of actual play. Scoresheet sure but not play. I don't think it's the type of result that gets duplicated very often.

I only half-watched the game, as I was busy, but this is more or less my takeaway as well - and I hadn't even thought about who outshot or outchanced who until I read this thread today.

The Canucks hustled hard, had some good performances, but overall they beat an Oilers team that wasnt executing well with a good goal, a fluke goal, and a terrible goal. That's obviously a nice result, and there were some promising things on display, but I think a nice result is being heavily superimposed over the process.

 

[WTG]

One game into the Green era and you're already calling him Willie 2.0? Come on... at least give him 10-15 games before you freak out. What happens if Virtanen's and Boeser's roles grow as the season develops? I definitely don't see Green as Willie 2.0, his communication skills are far superior.

I've watched Utica, you can go back to those old threads and see that this opinion hasn't been formed over 1 game.

 

[ddawg1950]

No one really. Roll through the lines equally.

However if we have to have a "shutdown line", utilizing Sutter/Dorsett in that role is probably optimal. They're not going to push much offensively anyways, so might as well let them focus on pestering other guys top players.

If Green is the type to roll four lines, then yes...and maybe. But my thinking matches your point about having Sutter/Dorsett just bug the crap out of elite players. If they can drive guys to distraction, as they apparently did with McDavid, then I’m all for it. The effects were pretty clear last night with the Saviour spending the last half the game chirping and slashing.

 

[WTG]

Personally, the problem that I had with Willie was never that he gave veterans the benefit of the doubt over rookies, who were way too slowly expected to gaining trust-- Many coaches frustratingly do that, and I can understand (but disagree with) the reasoning behind it.

Suggesting that that's why Desjardins was hated is criminally understating how incompetent he was and giving him way too much credit/letting him get away with far too much.

My primary problem with Desjardins was his complete inability to coach, inability to assess who was playing well and who wasn't, subsequent blatant rewarding of god-awful play by players that he gave preferential treatment towards (many coaches do a bit of this, but this was taken to an uncommon extreme with Willie-- almost as though he was doing it out of spite), and punishing of strong play whenever something promising happens, and completely insane and moronic reasoning given when questioned about things.

Green hasn't shown any sign of these things (in fact, he's shown the opposite more often than not). I'm all for criticizing the decision not to play young players right off the bat, but it wouldn't be reasonable to even begin to say "this is Desjardins all over again" until he scratches Virtanen for the game that he just had, and even then it wouldn't be enough reason to make that gross comparison, because Desjardins also does a million other things that make him terrible.

I think you are in for a surprise this season.

Remember when Cory Conacher got favorable treatment to Shinkaruk?
Remember when Ken Huskins got favorable treatment to Hutton?
Remember when Jared McCann couldn't crack his team over some AHL 4th liners?
Remember when Jordan Subban got healthy scratched multiple times for being "Bad defensively" despite having the best GF%RelTM?
Remember when the only reason Virtanen got to play in playoff games is because of an injury?


Or even THIS game

Virtanen benched, wouldn't that go under "inability to assess who was playing well and who wasn't".
Vanek/Burmistrov/Dorsett/Eriksson over Boeser, "subsequent blatant rewarding of god-awful players that he gave preferential treatment towards"

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

To the question of "who sits if Boeser dresses in Game 2", I would have two candidates: Thomas Vanek or Alexander Burmistrov. IMO, neither was particularly strong in Game 1 - Vanek in particular frequently looked gassed and out of energy.

Before Game 1, I likely would have said Dorsett, but he did have a very, very good game, and not even by just his own standards.

 

[valkynax]

I understand you're a man that knows how to get things.

Poster of McDavid? It'll take a few weeks. I don't have him stuffed in front of my pants right now I'm sorry to say.

But I'll get him, relax~.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

To the question of "who sits if Boeser dresses in Game 2", I would have two candidates: Thomas Vanek or Alexander Burmistrov. IMO, neither was particularly strong in Game 1 - Vanek in particular frequently looked gassed and out of energy.

Before Game 1, I likely would have said Dorsett, but he did have a very, very good game, and not even by just his own standards.

Definitely Vanek. But then the Sedins did also look gassed and out of energy. Ideally I'd like Boeser to line up with Horvat and (if it has to be...) Baertschi and stick Eriksson back with the twins for a few games.

 

[Shareefruck]

I think you are in for a surprise this season.

Remember when Cory Conacher got favorable treatment to Shinkaruk?
Remember when Ken Huskins got favorable treatment to Hutton?
Remember when Jared McCann couldn't crack his team over some AHL 4th liners?
Remember when Jordan Subban got healthy scratched multiple times for being "Bad defensively" despite having the best GF%RelTM?
Remember when the only reason Virtanen got to play in playoff games is because of an injury?


Or even THIS game

Virtanen benched, wouldn't that go under "inability to assess who was playing well and who wasn't".
Vanek/Burmistrov/Dorsett/Eriksson over Boeser, "subsequent blatant rewarding of god-awful players that he gave preferential treatment towards"

I think there's a notable difference between being slow to trust young players and quick to trust veterans in the third period/playoffs/to start the season (which seems to be what most of the cases you listed are, and is at least somewhat defensible and common among NHL coaches, although frustrating) and being completely unable to assess talent/doubling down at the most moronic times. Desjardins would do things like reward Gudbranson w/ 20+ minutes the next game to "play his way out of his struggles", scratch Virtanen after a stretch of games where he's on fire/busts a slump, and show preferential treatment to a shiny new toy like Pouliott (was he sent down yet? Anyways, you get my point) over guys who are actually MORE proven/experienced/also better (like, say, Biega) while also for some unexplainable reason shunning other equally unproven players, and things like that.

More importantly, there's also the difference in actual coaching ability/strategy, something that Desjardins seemed pretty clueless about in a way that Green doesn't.

Even though he may still be a frustrating coach, there's at least a defensible rhyme or reason to what Green does, whereas Desjardins had a tendency of just being straight up bat**** crazy and stupid.

 

[WTG]

I think there's a notable difference between being slow to trust young players and quick to trust veterans in the third period/playoffs/to start the season (which seems to be what most of the cases you listed are, and is at least somewhat defensible and common among NHL coaches) and being completely unable to assess talent/doubling down at the most moronic times. Desjardins would do things like reward Gudbranson w/ 20+ minutes the next game to "play his way out of his struggles", scratch Virtanen after a night where he's on fire/busts a slump/scores a goal, and showing preferential treatment to some players (like say Pouliott) over others who are actually the same or more proven, and things like that.

More importantly, there's also the difference in actual coaching ability/strategy, something that Desjardins seemed pretty clueless about.

Hutton arrived early with the comets that year and had ~10 regular season games to at least get a look at him. Travis Green "evaluated" him and decided that Hutton was not a better option to replace Ken Huskins/Negrin.

Travis Green was the only coach who didn't play their 1st rounder in the playoffs/regular season when the 1st rounder was available to play. Virtanen would have almost not have played if it weren't for injury.

Dorsett just finished a game with 17+ TOI, after a god awful pre-season. Rewarding terrible players with ice time when it's wholly undeserved. Meanwhile Boeser is in the pressbox after a fantastic pre-season.


It's the honeymoon period for Travis Green, people are viewing him with rose-colored glasses. He's doing the same garbage Willie did.

 

[rune74]

Here is some extended highlights from the game.

http://www.dtmts.com/?id=2017020028&vid=53298203

 

[pomx]

Hutton arrived early with the comets that year and had ~10 regular season games to at least get a look at him. Travis Green "evaluated" him and decided that Hutton was not a better option to replace Ken Huskins/Negrin.

Travis Green was the only coach who didn't play their 1st rounder in the playoffs/regular season when the 1st rounder was available to play. Virtanen would have almost not have played if it weren't for injury.

Dorsett just finished a game with 17+ TOI, after a god awful pre-season. Rewarding terrible players with ice time when it's wholly undeserved. Meanwhile Boeser is in the pressbox after a fantastic pre-season.


It's the honeymoon period for Travis Green, people are viewing him with rose-colored glasses. He's doing the same garbage Willie did.

Lmao called line matching and shutting down McDavid.

 

[WTG]

Lmao called line matching and shutting down McDavid.

I don't care what people call it, Dorsett shouldn't be getting 17+ minutes of Icetime and Virtanen shouldn't be getting 7 minutes of icetime.

Dorsett got rewarded for having a bad preseason.

 

[jimslob]

Thanks that was a good view. Strangely didn't hear McDavid's name once.

 

[crazychimp]

Here is some extended highlights from the game.

http://www.dtmts.com/?id=2017020028&vid=53298203

Thank you for this!

 

[Yggdrasil]

To the question of "who sits if Boeser dresses in Game 2", I would have two candidates: Thomas Vanek or Alexander Burmistrov. IMO, neither was particularly strong in Game 1 - Vanek in particular frequently looked gassed and out of energy.

Before Game 1, I likely would have said Dorsett, but he did have a very, very good game, and not even by just his own standards.

Eriksson Horvat Boeser
Sedin Sedin Vanek
Baer Gagner Virtenan
Granlund Sutter Dorsett.

or swap eriksson + baer.

this should be the main line throughout the season.

 

[Shareefruck]

Hutton arrived early with the comets that year and had ~10 regular season games to at least get a look at him. Travis Green "evaluated" him and decided that Hutton was not a better option to replace Ken Huskins/Negrin.

Travis Green was the only coach who didn't play their 1st rounder in the playoffs/regular season when the 1st rounder was available to play. Virtanen would have almost not have played if it weren't for injury.

Dorsett just finished a game with 17+ TOI, after a god awful pre-season. Rewarding terrible players with ice time when it's wholly undeserved. Meanwhile Boeser is in the pressbox after a fantastic pre-season.


It's the honeymoon period for Travis Green, people are viewing him with rose-colored glasses. He's doing the same garbage Willie did.

Again, these are all decisions that can be explained with "being slow to trust young players and giving veteran players too much of the benefit of the doubt." I will not argue that this is not a flaw. It is fair to criticize Green for this-- he is not above it, and there is no need to see him with rose colored glasses.

Even acknowledging this, it is still not fair, however, to equate this to Willie Desjardins, whose problems were far more indefensible and extended far beyond simply favoring veterans over young players. It is frankly, letting him get away with way too much to suggest so, IMO. Favoring veterans over rookies is tame in comparison to not knowing how to match lines, being unable to adjust to being clearly out-coached, favoring Vey/Sbisa over more experienced players, trying to Clockwork-Orange Tryamkin into playing like Pronger, explaining that Sbisa-Bieksa was being given optimal ice-time despite abysmal performances that were easily targeted and exploited by Calgary in order to protect guys like Edler and Tanev from the physicality, intentionally giving players that he himself assessed as performing terribly optimal icetime so that they can play their way out of their struggles, and defending the decision to start Horvat on the 4th line after he had already established himself for an entire season by suggesting that he was a natural defensive role player/grinder type who was unfortunately forced into to producing at a first-line rate.

There are within-the-realm-of-normal coaching frustrations like the ones that Green is arguably guilty of, and then there is Willie-Desjardins-level-incompetence.

 

[GetFocht]

Dorsett earned his spot, how he took McDavid off his game was a masterful job. It reminded me of how Marchand got into the Canucks head during the playoffs.

We need Dorsett in the line-up to do things like this, it not only pisses off the entire opposing team, it has their star player focusing on trying to get back Dorsett rather than try to win the game.

It's also no surprise that Green's team played like that yesterday, he's a strategist. What a breath of a fresh air from last season, no more centre ice dump ins or lack of breakouts. The only thing of concern last night was the PP and hoping it's just a matter of Canucks getting used to Newell's system.

 

[RobertKron]

no more centre ice dump ins or lack of breakouts.

Wha?

 

[PatrikBerglund]

How were the Swedes?

 

[Pip]

I get what you are saying but I’m wondering then, who would you put up against elite opposition players on a regular basis?

It’s tough, we really needed an actual centre that could handle tougher minutes instead of a Burmistrov or Gagner.

Maybe some combination of Eriksson, Granlund and someone else?

I think Gaunce could be an option when he gets back.

 

[Pip]

To the question of "who sits if Boeser dresses in Game 2", I would have two candidates: Thomas Vanek or Alexander Burmistrov. IMO, neither was particularly strong in Game 1 - Vanek in particular frequently looked gassed and out of energy.

Before Game 1, I likely would have said Dorsett, but he did have a very, very good game, and not even by just his own standards.

I would be absolutely shocked if Vanek sat at any point this season

 

[DL44]

Hutton arrived early with the comets that year and had ~10 regular season games to at least get a look at him. Travis Green "evaluated" him and decided that Hutton was not a better option to replace Ken Huskins/Negrin.

Travis Green was the only coach who didn't play their 1st rounder in the playoffs/regular season when the 1st rounder was available to play. Virtanen would have almost not have played if it weren't for injury.

Dorsett just finished a game with 17+ TOI, after a god awful pre-season. Rewarding terrible players with ice time when it's wholly undeserved. Meanwhile Boeser is in the pressbox after a fantastic pre-season.


It's the honeymoon period for Travis Green, people are viewing him with rose-colored glasses. He's doing the same garbage Willie did.

dont know what to say if you thought Dorsett's presesson was god awful.

 

[stampedingviking]

I don't care what people call it, Dorsett shouldn't be getting 17+ minutes of Icetime and Virtanen shouldn't be getting 7 minutes of icetime.

Dorsett got rewarded for having a bad preseason.

No, he got rewarded for playing very well against the Oilers last night.

 

[Nomobo]

At first people were like ‘OMG one of our best prospects top 6 prospects for utter garbage



Now, Shinkaruk is garbage and isn’t NHL material.

I don't care what people call it, Dorsett shouldn't be getting 17+ minutes of Icetime and Virtanen shouldn't be getting 7 minutes of icetime.

Dorsett got rewarded for having a bad preseason.

We get it, you don't like hitting and fighting in hockey and Green is one of the worst coaches in the NHL.

 

[WTG]

Again, these are all decisions that can be explained with "being slow to trust young players and giving veteran players too much of the benefit of the doubt." I will not argue that this is not a flaw. It is fair to criticize Green for this-- he is not above it, and there is no need to see him with rose colored glasses.

Even acknowledging this, it is still not fair, however, to equate this to Willie Desjardins, whose problems were far more indefensible and extended far beyond simply favoring veterans over young players. It is frankly, letting him get away with way too much to suggest so, IMO. Favoring veterans over rookies is tame in comparison to not knowing how to match lines, being unable to adjust to being clearly out-coached, favoring Vey/Sbisa over more experienced players, trying to Clockwork-Orange Tryamkin into playing like Pronger, explaining that Sbisa-Bieksa was being given optimal ice-time despite abysmal performances that were easily targeted and exploited by Calgary in order to protect guys like Edler and Tanev from the physicality, intentionally giving players that he himself assessed as performing terribly optimal icetime so that they can play their way out of their struggles, and defending the decision to start Horvat on the 4th line after he had already established himself for an entire season by suggesting that he was a natural defensive role player/grinder type who was unfortunately forced into to producing at a first-line rate.

There are within-the-realm-of-normal coaching frustrations like the ones that Green is arguably guilty of, and then there is Willie-Desjardins-level-incompetence.

Alright, let it sink in. Tried to get your point of view. You saw Willie as such a bad coach that equating Green to Willie is not imaginable, that's fair. However, I did say he's Willie 2.0 new and improved, not a replication of Willie rather an improved version of him. Some of his holes are covered up, but that doesn't make Green any better.