TV: Game of Thrones | Series Finale - III

[RandV]

Like I have said before, specifics with regards to a character are important. "Propensity to be violent" is a very vague term that can apply to people among various moral standings. Gregor Clegane had a propensity to be violent. Are we saying that Gregor Clegane and Daenerys Targaryen are morally equivalent or are equally prone to murdering civilians? Sandor Clegane had a propensity to be violent, and there is a clear line between him and Gregor because of what they specifically do during the course of the series.

Specifics do matter, especially when it comes to transitioning from a moral or generally moral perspective to a grossly immoral one.

I wonder how much of this was just a divergence in writing between GRRM and D&D. What I mean is up to the end of A Dance with Dragons, Jon and Dany's stories paralleled each other: rise to position of power/authority at young age, initially show a lot of promise, start to buckle under pressure as the world beats down on them, then everything goes to shit. You could say there's meaning in the narrative here, that you have to fall before you can run, but while my memory is set on the book and I'm having a hard time remembering the specific details of the show I feel like Dany never really 'fell' here, her situation was a lot kinder and it's more like they chose to Mary Sue her.

Yes she's almost assassinated and ends up flying off on Drogon, that's the same, and the book ends with her running into some Dothraki so the events will probably go somewhat similar there. The problem is I feel like they kind of Mary Sue her from there, she charges into Mereen and saves the day, leaves Dario in charge and sails to Westeros with a massive unbeatable army. The main difference here is in the books Mereen is a complete shit show where you feel like if/when Dany rides in with the Dothraki she may as well burn it all to the ground. Putting some details together with early preview chapters (I believe) released from Winds:

[spoil]
The other two dragons are loose and the city huddles in fear as they roost in pyramids and terrorize with impunity, the besieging army is succumbing to the bloody flux/plague and catapulting disease ridden corpses into the city to spread the love, and finally a Greyjoy armada is barrelling down on the city lead by an unrelenting Victarion Greyjoy who is much less friendly than Yara/Theon and has a magic horn from old Valyria that will supposedly take control of dragons.
[/spoil]

Overall along with the other painful lessons learned (like the Butcher king) just feels like a much more volatile situation that would start the transition to "Fire and Blood" Dany that just wasn't there in the show.

 

[x Tame Impala]

I think referring to Dany as a “Mary Sue” is the incorrect usage of the phrase

 

[Super Cake]

Thinking back to the final season, i got to say while that the season was disappointing, aria killing the night king was even more disappointing.

With all the history that Jon had with the white walkers, it should have been him who killed the night king.

 

[Osprey]

Thinking back to the final season, i got to say while that the season was disappointing, aria killing the night king was even more disappointing.

With all the history that Jon had with the white walkers, it should have been him who killed the night king.

I read an article the other day in which Kit Harrington opened up and was quoted as saying that he was really disappointed by that, too. He's happy for Maisie Williams, but feels that it should've been Jon Snow.

 

[Neutrinos]

Why exactly did Varys have to die in Westeros?

 

[MadDevil]

Why exactly did Varys have to die in Westeros?

I took Melisandre's statement more as he would die in Westeros than he "had to" die in Westeros.

 

[NyQuil]

I read an article the other day in which Kit Harrington opened up and was quoted as saying that he was really disappointed by that, too. He's happy for Maisie Williams, but feels that it should've been Jon Snow.

Meh, I'm glad it wasn't Jon Snow.

I'm not really a fan of the character and his decision-making and him facing off with the Night King one on one is not particularly original or interesting.

They could have executed the final blow better maybe, but overall I think it's appropriate.

The Night King is far too dangerous for Jon Snow to tackle - as was shown earlier in the episode when he just used his horde of minions to handle him.

The only way for him to lose was his over-confidence - an unseen threat that he didn't anticipate.

 

[NyQuil]

Unclear. The most important plot point of the series has opaque motivation.

The issue is the debate between Tyrion and Dany around whether or not to use the dragons is framed as one of expediency, which is not one of the half dozen reasons drudged up to explain the scene because it has *NOTHING* to do with the ultimate result- she burned it after she had won, so why was screentime wasted on debating how to win? If she's angry at Jon, if she wants vengeance for Jorah/Rhaegar, if she's angry the people of Westeros haven't accepted her, if she's angry at Jon's claim to the throne, if she's just flat out insane, whatever- pick one and stick with it and dramatize it. Instead of one clearly demonstrated motivation, the audience is given half a dozen half assed ones that, for the most part, aren't dramatized.

The pacifist, Missandei, is telling Dany to burn everything.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

The pacifist, Missandei, is telling Dany to burn everything.

Which I also think is kind of weird. She was captured by an army that her queen is openly fighting, and in this current world the possibility she will be executed for treason or whatever is definitely possible. So I do not understand why this moment is the one where she is like "yes, it all must burn now because I have met my end." Maybe it is because she is back in chains and this has made her distraught and has drastically changed her character. Maybe it is something else. But it kind of demonstrates another example of the season being rushed, as we go from her being captured to her being executed in the span of half an episode (maybe not even?). We had Ned Stark arrested in episode 7 then executed at the end of episode 9 in season 1, and we had Rickon captured in episode 3 then killed in episode 9 of season 6. The closest example I can think of is Rickard Karstark being arrested for treason then executed the same episode, but that is also a culmination of a growing divide between Robb Stark and the Karstarks, with that moment requiring him to make a choice on the spot. This moment doesn't have any of that, and is purely used as a springboard to turn Daenerys into a person who is willing to burn thousands of innocent people alive for no particular tactical reason.

If this is the kind of scene that leads to Daenerys burning down the Red Keep and all the citizens sheltered inside, then at least I get that more. It comes across as more "avenge me by destroying this tyrant" rather than "avenge me by providing wanton destruction despite this never being a part of my character."

 

[Neutrinos]

I took Melisandre's statement more as he would die in Westeros than he "had to" die in Westeros.

Then that was poor writing. She should've said "I'll die in this country. Same as you"

 

[NyQuil]

I agree that the season was rushed.

I think that's a pretty universal understanding.

 

[David Dennison]

The pacifist, Missandei, is telling Dany to burn everything.

The killing the 2nd dragon and capturing Missandei scene was IMO the stupidest of the entire series. Scorpions hitting the dragon from thousands of feet away in the air, boats coming out of nowhere, them capturing Missandei while the soldiers largely escape to the shore. Like they sail in and capture her but don't pick off greyworm and his people? The dragon kill proved completely unnecessary too since KL was razed by the other one all by itself.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

This is a wild thread to read regarding D&D.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I had a way different takeaway from that thread than many of the people commenting.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I had a way different takeaway from that thread than many of the people commenting.

I would wait until a transcript shows up as the person tweeting has a history of absolutely hating the showrunners and is paraphrasing here.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I would wait until a transcript shows up as the person tweeting has a history of absolutely hating the showrunners and is paraphrasing here.

I know. Through most of it, my takeaway was positive and how impressive their journey was, but once it got to the opinion and then others commenting, it took a turn. Sort of how people can watch the exact same thing and have completely different conclusions.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I know. Through most of it, my takeaway was positive and how impressive their journey was, but once it got to the opinion and then others commenting, it took a turn. Sort of how people can watch the exact same thing and have completely different conclusions.

It is a minor miracle this show worked at all.

 

[bleedblue1223]

It is a minor miracle this show worked at all.

Yeah, and for how impressive it was for the bulk of the run, that's an amazing accomplishment.

 

[Hatfield]

I blame Martin for spending the entire run of the show going to conventions and writing books peripheral to the main story. D&D are hacks and they were lost without Martin's source material. Sure, the show still benefited from great acting, music, sets, special effects, etc., but it's all just gloss when the storytelling isn't up to par.

 

[Elvis P]

Joe Jonas Retains Divorce Lawyer After 4 Years of Marriage to Sophie Turner: Source

Joe Jonas has retained a divorce lawyer after four years of marriage to Sophie Turner, a source tells PEOPLE. The couple tied the knot in 2019 and have two kids together

people.com

 

[Fripp]

Short, ugly guy who reached way out of his league, bolts after she gave him two kids.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Short, ugly guy who reached way out of his league, bolts after she gave him two kids.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/08/opinions/joe-jonas-sophie-turner-divorce-grisafi/index.html

Good take on things. Both sides have the spin doctors out in full force. Not going to believe the stuff in the press

 

[x Tame Impala]

I re-watched the show last year and liked it a lot. Seasons 6 & 7 in particular really grew on me since we already know what happens, there's less hype, and no expectations on what could happen. Season 8 was still poorly done and I don't think it will ever be looked at differently than that by most.

Rewatching it I did want to start reading the books but why freaking bother if GRMM is never going to finish the series?

 

[MadDevil]

I re-watched the show last year and liked it a lot. Seasons 6 & 7 in particular really grew on me since we already know what happens, there's less hype, and no expectations on what could happen. Season 8 was still poorly done and I don't think it will ever be looked at differently than that by most.

Rewatching it I did want to start reading the books but why freaking bother if GRMM is never going to finish the series?

The first three books are still great and worth reading even if the series never gets finished. I think it helps add some depth to the series as well, even if the series didn't follow the books point for point.

The fourth and fifth books are more inconsistent and you get the sense that Martin's "gardening" has gotten away from him a bit. It's why I'm really not as upset as I used to be about the books likely never getting finished. If the creator himself can't seem (or just doesn't want) to figure out how to untangle/trim/whatever the hell he needs to do to move the story forward, there's not really anything we can do about it.

 

[HanSolo]

I re-watched the show last year and liked it a lot. Seasons 6 & 7 in particular really grew on me since we already know what happens, there's less hype, and no expectations on what could happen. Season 8 was still poorly done and I don't think it will ever be looked at differently than that by most.

Rewatching it I did want to start reading the books but why freaking bother if GRMM is never going to finish the series?

Yeah Seasons 6 and 7 are decent for me. Like yeah there's problems, plenty of them, and it's a lot more popcorny than the peak of the show but I think there's still plenty of great moments.

5 is just dreary and forgettable overall. 8 is rough. I really drank the Kool aid and tried to rationalize as many flaws as I could when the episodes were airing and I still hold a small handful of the same opinions but overall they fumbled so many storytelling decisions. Or at least the story events would have sucked less if there was more time to flesh stone things out. Once the denial washed away I was left with a really sour taste in my mouth. Like the whole damn show was let down and cheapened. Like I had no real excitement for House of the Dragon, just curiosity.

I've read the first three books, so I think they're still worth it if you've got the time but GRRM really packs in a lot of detail rich content. With so many other media distractions, I really couldn't stomach the rest of the books after 3 of them, personally. Maybe I'll listen to the audiobooks eventually.