TV: Game of Thrones | Season 8 (Final) | Part IX -TV talk ONLY -NO Books, Spoilers, NO LEAKS

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peate

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Finally finished season 3, I had to put it on hold for a few weeks after the Red Wedding. Yeah, it got to me again, even after seeing it before and anticipating it, it's such a brutal, overwhelming scene. With less hockey to watch now, I'll dive into season 4 later tonight.
 

RandV

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The other pairing:
Sansa Stark and Sandor Clegane:
- To begin the story, Sansa is hopelessly naive and understands the world in terms of stories and songs. The code of chivalry is so heavily embedded into her, that she is easily manipulated by the likes of Cersei Lannister and Petyr Baelish. She has no idea that she is “playing the game”, and her naïveté leads directly to the death of Lady, then her father, then Dontos, then Lysa. It’s only after her retreat to the Eyrie, the impregnable fortress in the sky where nothing there is neither danger nor love, that we see her change into a more worldly woman. When she descends from the Vale, she has transformed into a player capable of destroying even Baelish.
- Clegane is, much like Jaime, the antithesis of a knight. He is cruel and brutal, and has no concern for honor. Like Jaime, he ascends to a high position in the king’s personal guard because of his willingness to obey dishonorably. When King’s Landing is under attack, he breaks even what little honor he has left by abandoning his duty. But we see something softer underneath that brutality, when he interacts with Sansa. He seems to view her innocence with a mix of contempt and protectiveness; he keeps her from harm and seems earnest when he asks her for a song (remember what’s in the songs — ideal chivalry). When he leaves her, it’s with a message of warning about the brutal ways of the world, sending her on the path to maturity. And of course, he in turn runs right into Arya, Sansa’s own foil, who will in turn “kill” him and set him on the path to redemption.

I agree in general but I don't think you have quite the right read on Sandor Clegane here. There was probably a point in his childhood where Sandor idolized knights like every other kid, but then Gregor burned half his face off for playing with his toys. So it's living in the shadow of his brother Ser Gregor who's both a lord of their household and a knight is what influences him.

To be a knight you have to take an oath and it's supposed to mean something, but The Mountain just makes the whole thing look like a cruel joke. He's the real "antithesis" of a knight. Sandor is more someone who is fundamentally a good person but got burned by the cruel realities of the world, who'd rather be a hound than a knight because at least hounds are loyal. How Sansa fits in is as a naive child raised as a proper lady and dreaming of the idealistic knight, but when she actually needs one to step up for her she gets the Hound. The legitimate knights are willing to beat her if Joffrey commands it, but at that point in the story Sandor who specifically isn't a knight is the only one selflessly selflessly watching out for her.
 

tarheelhockey

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I agree in general but I don't think you have quite the right read on Sandor Clegane here. There was probably a point in his childhood where Sandor idolized knights like every other kid, but then Gregor burned half his face off for playing with his toys. So it's living in the shadow of his brother Ser Gregor who's both a lord of their household and a knight is what influences him.

To be a knight you have to take an oath and it's supposed to mean something, but The Mountain just makes the whole thing look like a cruel joke. He's the real "antithesis" of a knight. Sandor is more someone who is fundamentally a good person but got burned by the cruel realities of the world, who'd rather be a hound than a knight because at least hounds are loyal. How Sansa fits in is as a naive child raised as a proper lady and dreaming of the idealistic knight, but when she actually needs one to step up for her she gets the Hound. The legitimate knights are willing to beat her if Joffrey commands it, but at that point in the story Sandor who specifically isn't a knight is the only one selflessly selflessly watching out for her.

I agree and I don't think that's in conflict with my prior post. Sandor's interaction with Sansa brings out a vulnerability in him that was covered up by figurative (and literal) scarring from his childhood. Until that point, he's so withdrawn into himself that he's willing to do unthinkable horror (murdering Mycah the butcher's boy for no particular reason, leading the massacre of Ned Stark's personal guard, standing silent while Sansa is beaten). He has a distaste for the charade of knighthood, that's obvious enough from the fact that he refused to take vows to become an actual knight himself, but he is willing to be cowed and play his part in atrocity if the lordly class commands it so.

It's Sansa who brings out his aspiration to be a "true knight". Her innocence seems to give him a sort of channel for chivalrous ideals (physical courage, protection of women, respect for maidenhood, willingness to speak truth to power, etc.) and his knightly character blooms out through that channel. And that character is constantly challenged in his quest with Arya (the anti-Sansa) in which he is constantly encountering opportunities to act in his old un-knightly manner, culminating in the opportunity to join a rampant band of Lannister swordsmen. Arya, in turn, is forced to confront her own preconceptions about Clegane, while she herself is struggling with her transition into a merciless killer. By declining to grant him the "gift of death", she gives him access to a figurative death and then a rebirth as defender of a pastoral spiritual community -- in itself, a chivalrous ideal.

Just an interesting note: This is a no-book thread, but it's worth looking up what kind of toy he was playing with to provoke Gregor's fury.
 

TheAngryHank

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Come on, she was all ready to put Arya on trial right up until the Bran 9000 told her what was up. God what an awful sub-plot that was.

Come on , they had to stage a trial and I doubt Littlefinger would have shown up if he knew it was for him.
 

peate

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First episode, season 4, when Arya and The Hound wreak havoc in the inn where she finds Needle and uses it to dispatch the thief. Great scene. You can see the bond forming.
 

TheAngryHank

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First episode, season 4, when Arya and The Hound wreak havoc in the inn where she finds Needle and uses it to dispatch the thief. Great scene. You can see the bond forming.
Your a talker ,Talkers make me thirsty.
That whole scene is probably my all time favorite.
S4E1 is awesome.
 

TheAngryHank

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If any more words come pouring out your **** mouth, I'm going to have to eat every ****ing chicken in this room.
By far the absolute best 5 mins in television history.
When said and done ,Arya and the Hound ride off on two horses .Arya following the Hound ,full bellys and satisfied . it's that moment we are introduced to the Hound and Arya.
 

peate

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By far the absolute best 5 mins in television history.
When said and done ,Arya and the Hound ride off on two horses .Arya following the Hound ,full bellys and satisfied . it's that moment we are introduced to the Hound and Arya.
That was great. Also, in a previous scene, when they stop at the camp fire where the guy is falsely bragging about taking part in the killing of the Starks and she stabs him with Sandor's knife. When he asks her where she got the knife, his reaction when she tells him it's his. You can tell he respects her and knows she's not to be taken lightly.
 

darko

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Come on, she was all ready to put Arya on trial right up until the Bran 9000 told her what was up. God what an awful sub-plot that was.

You don't know that. She could've been playing him for a little while leading into the trial and eventually his death.
 

Rhaegar Targaryen

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I can't wait for season 8 ,but don't want it to end.

I’ll miss it, but I’m happy the series is ending soon. While the writing has gotten pretty bad, I thought Season 7 was very weak after a pretty good Season 6.

I do feel for the creators, though. They got a ton of hate, but they’re clearly in over their heads at this point. The show has passed the books and GRRM seems like he’s given the creators very little to work with. They know the ending, but getting there? They’re not the fantasy novel authors.
 

Siamese Dream

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You don't know that. She could've been playing him for a little while leading into the trial and eventually his death.

Yes I do, the showrunners literally admitted it and there was a deleted scene where she had to go running to the Bran 9000 and she was actually going to do it until he told her what Littlefinger had done.

Nice to see people are still in denial about that horrible sub-plot and have to make excuses for how insufferable Arya and Sansa's childish bickering was and how little on-screen chemistry they have despite being bezzie mates, by thinking it was all some elaborate act.

Personally they should have killed Arya in Braavos because at this point apart from providing fan service with try-hard moments of badassery she's pointless
 
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ArGarBarGar

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Sansa's arc has been completely butchered these last two seasons. The Littlefinger resolution could have made up for what they did with her in season 6, but they created a convoluted mystery with one of the most unsatisfying conclusions in the series. Littlefinger sticks around for no reason, tries to pit Arya against Sansa (which somehow works for a little bit), then is outed because Bran remembered a thing and just told them, which makes the whole Sansa/Arya drama a waste of time in addition to being stupid.
 
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Siamese Dream

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Sansa's arc has been completely butchered these last two seasons. The Littlefinger resolution could have made up for what they did with her in season 6, but they created a convoluted mystery with one of the most unsatisfying conclusions in the series. Littlefinger sticks around for no reason, tries to pit Arya against Sansa (which somehow works for a little bit), then is outed because Bran remembered a thing and just told them, which makes the whole Sansa/Arya drama a waste of time in addition to being stupid.

It was a waste of time, I think that entire sub-plot was just to give them stuff to do while Jon was gone
 

TheAngryHank

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I’ll miss it, but I’m happy the series is ending soon. While the writing has gotten pretty bad, I thought Season 7 was very weak after a pretty good Season 6.

I do feel for the creators, though. They got a ton of hate, but they’re clearly in over their heads at this point. The show has passed the books and GRRM seems like he’s given the creators very little to work with. They know the ending, but getting there? They’re not the fantasy novel authors.
These episodes age well,I didn't notice or care about time jumps etc on rewatching the newest season.
 

RandV

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I’ll miss it, but I’m happy the series is ending soon. While the writing has gotten pretty bad, I thought Season 7 was very weak after a pretty good Season 6.

I do feel for the creators, though. They got a ton of hate, but they’re clearly in over their heads at this point. The show has passed the books and GRRM seems like he’s given the creators very little to work with. They know the ending, but getting there? They’re not the fantasy novel authors.

From Dan & David's perspective I don't think the problem is he's given them too little to work with, but rather mid series he gave them too much and there was no way they could keep up with a straight adaption. They've basically been writing their own stuff since the end of season 4.
 
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