Post-Game Talk: Game 6: Canadiens 4, Canucks 1 - Wanted: Secondary Scoring, no experience required

[Tiranis]

You're also missing another pattern:

We play bad teams and we look dangerous and are creating tons of chances. We play good teams and we look ineffectual, unable to score and get dominated. As it stands, this team is looking a lot like the team we saw in 07-08.

We dominated the first 2 periods against the Habs and got a bad bounce following which the team started playing scared and reverted to their AV ways. The only team we've had trouble with is the Sharks and they're currently dominating everyone in the league. And I would argue that even against the Sharks we've done well enough when executing Torts' system.

 

[y2kcanucks]

We dominated the first 2 periods against the Habs and got a bad bounce following which the team started playing scared and reverted to their AV ways. The only team we've had trouble with is the Sharks and they're currently dominating everyone in the league. And I would argue that even against the Sharks we've done well enough when executing Torts' system.

I don't know how you can argue we've done well enough against the Sharks when executing Torts' system. We looked pretty bad in both games against the Sharks.

I didn't see last night's game so I can't comment on it a whole lot (seen highlights but that's not really enough to make an accurate assessment). But if all it takes is one bad own goal to derail the team then I seriously question the mental toughness and leadership on this team.

 

[CherryToke]

I would argue that his post makes a lot of sense. Derek Roy has been a productive forward everywhere except in Vancouver under AV. (Back to being productive in St Louis with 5 points in 4 games.) That's hardly a 3rd liner we brought in last season and he was completely wasted by AV.

well that is true, AV really sucked at using Roy effectively. Gillis didn't see it that way though as he didn't attempt to bring him back for another year. I really hope the reason for that is he plans to bring in a scoring winger like Vanek. That's what this team really needs. Maybe a 3rd line center too but 2nd line wing is the biggest hole since Samuelson got injured..

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I think we desperately need a top 6 for Kesler. What about Prospal? Yeah he's old but he's been solid for a long time.

Oh and Hamhuis has been so bad even before yesterday's terrible own-goal. I don't even think he's hurt because he's making bad plays, it's all mental.

initially, i would have said no way. but after six games, it looks like if we can bring in someone with some playmaking skill from the wing to get kesler going, i'm all for it. i think kesler will get there eventually, but the sooner we can get his mojo going the better.

can prospal be an older, less effective demitra? if the price is right -- and it has to be if we're going to bring him in because of cap considerations -- i'd give it a shot. if it doesn't work, waive him. not a huge risk there.

and i was always under the impression that prospal and torts didn't get along, and that prospal bolted TB as soon as he could, but others have pointed out that Tb brought him back twice, and NYR signed him too, and that he and torts actually have a pretty solid relationship. so maybe those two guys have some unfinished business (i.e., winning a cup together).


also of note, lecavalier's four best years are with prospal on his wing ('03, '06, '07, '08). that was 5-10 years ago, but torts knows how to use him to get the most out of a shoot first center.

 

[NuxFan09]

I think we desperately need a top 6 for Kesler. What about Prospal? Yeah he's old but he's been solid for a long time.

Oh and Hamhuis has been so bad even before yesterday's terrible own-goal. I don't even think he's hurt because he's making bad plays, it's all mental.

I'm actually surprised Gillis didn't sign Prospal. It was a move I saw coming from a mile away but it never did come.

I believe he would still be an effective player and I heard he was a favourite of Tortorella's. He's obviously not a top producing player anymore but he's a veteran who is still capable of adding that skill element the 2nd line needs. He had 30 points in 48 games last year for the Blue Jackets.

 

[mossey3535]

I would argue that his post makes a lot of sense. Derek Roy has been a productive forward everywhere except in Vancouver under AV. (Back to being productive in St Louis with 5 points in 4 games.) That's hardly a 3rd liner we brought in last season and he was completely wasted by AV.

Also, look at the 'offensive' additions to every team in the last couple of years. Did they contribute in the playoffs? No. Offensive guys are often shut down in the playoffs, this has been shown many times.

For example, Jokinen and Iginla with Pittsburgh. Boston's system versus adding two guys to an already stacked team. System wins.

Rick Nash. Jagr. Roy. Clowe. Year after year you see guys being traded as secondary scoring at the deadline and more often than not they don't do squat in the playoffs.

Of course, sometimes it works like with Handzus last year and Carter the year before that. Hossa of course. But adding what SHOULD BE secondary scoring via talent isn't the magic bullet everyone thinks it is.

 

[Pip]

Nobody is throwing hissy fits. It's this kind of hyperbole that's really irritating.

I've seen multiple guarantees that we will miss the playoffs and talk of Sam Reinhart. If that isn't considered a huge overreaction to 6 games, I don't know what it.

 

[CherryToke]

Also, look at the 'offensive' additions to every team in the last couple of years. Did they contribute in the playoffs? No. Offensive guys are often shut down in the playoffs, this has been shown many times.

For example, Jokinen and Iginla with Pittsburgh. Boston's system versus adding two guys to an already stacked team. System wins.

Rick Nash. Jagr. Roy. Clowe. Year after year you see guys being traded as secondary scoring at the deadline and more often than not they don't do squat in the playoffs.

Of course, sometimes it works like with Handzus last year and Carter the year before that. Hossa of course. But adding what SHOULD BE secondary scoring via talent isn't the magic bullet everyone thinks it is.

Iginla had 12 points in 15 games.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

We all know what happens to the offense once the team gets closer to and in to the playoffs.

The Sedins have been great to start this season, no question there, and the team has gotten great production out of Santorelli and Garrison. What happens when Santorelli inevitably slows down? I have already said I think Garrison is going to have a big year, but he can't BE the secondary offense. What we're left with is a team who is again relying on the Sedins to do the scoring and when they aren't doing the scoring, a team who relies on Luongo to save the day.

And the perpetual negativity continues. People too often here speak in absolutes only when it relates to a pessimistic narrative: Santorelli will inevitably slow down. Yet the opposite spectrum is rarely as vocal: Kesler will inevitably pick up the pace. Why must we assume only the worst will occur? I suppose because it is easier to accept being proven right than wrong.

Nobody is throwing hissy fits. It's this kind of hyperbole that's really irritating.

Some posters insist on blaming Bieksa for our defensive failures, and because the notion he has been our best defenseman outside of Garrison as ridiculous despite it being accurate. Hilariously, some are beginning to include Hamhuis in trade proposals and the ever prevalent "Higgins is useless, Kesler DO SOMETHING" persists. Complaints are one thing - many of our players do need to play better. But six games into the season and based on some posters, you'd believe it was 56.

 

[Saturated Fats]

And the perpetual negativity continues. People too often here speak in absolutes only when it relates to a pessimistic narrative: Santorelli will inevitably slow down. Yet the opposite spectrum is rarely as vocal: Kesler will inevitably pick up the pace. Why must we assume only the worst will occur? I suppose because it is easier to accept being proven right than wrong.



Some posters insist on blaming Bieksa for our defensive failures, and because the notion he has been our best defenseman outside of Garrison as ridiculous despite it being accurate. Hilariously, some are beginning to include Hamhuis in trade proposals and the ever prevalent "Higgins is useless, Kesler DO SOMETHING" persists. Complaints are one thing - many of our players do need to play better. But six games into the season and based on some posters, you'd believe it was 56.

Brother, I have a simpler, easier to digest answer tho that question for you.

We're Canucks fans.

I saw someone above post that we shouldn't acquire secondary scoring because it inevitably gets shut down in the playoffs. That's like saying you shouldn't buy a loaf of bread when you're hungry because it'll go stale by next Friday.

 

[NuxFan09]

And the perpetual negativity continues. People too often here speak in absolutes only when it relates to a pessimistic narrative: Santorelli will inevitably slow down. Yet the opposite spectrum is rarely as vocal: Kesler will inevitably pick up the pace. Why must we assume only the worst will occur? I suppose because it is easier to accept being proven right than wrong.



Some posters insist on blaming Bieksa for our defensive failures, and because the notion he has been our best defenseman outside of Garrison as ridiculous despite it being accurate. Hilariously, some are beginning to include Hamhuis in trade proposals and the ever prevalent "Higgins is useless, Kesler DO SOMETHING" persists. Complaints are one thing - many of our players do need to play better. But six games into the season and based on some posters, you'd believe it was 56.

Kesler will pick it up - he's not going to stay at a 13 or 14 point pace - but he's one of the primary core players so he's expected to pick it up. My point is, where is the secondary scoring going to come from?

Now, if Kesler can not only improve but get back to the kind of form that made him a player who makes others better, that changes things a lot. You could then see it leading to Booth being a more productive player and a player like Kassian breaking out. However, it's that Kesler that people have given up on and don't see coming back. It's why a lot of people are intent on the Canucks finding players that suit him.

 

[Hal 9000*]

We already have Kesler, Booth, Higgins, Kassian, Hansen and Burrows who should be good for secondary scoring. With these guys, I don't see us bringing in outside help. No, these guys need to man-up and get it done...and for the most part last night they were, they just ran into a hot goalie. The Canucks were out shooting them, and out chancing them for 2 periods - so the talent is there.
It's obvious that the Hamhuis goal killed the mojo in this team - that's what needs to change.

 

[RobertKron]

We already have Kesler, Booth, Higgins, Kassian, Hansen and Burrows who should be good for secondary scoring. With these guys, I don't see us bringing in outside help. No, these guys need to man-up and get it done...and for the most part last night they were, they just ran into a hot goalie. The Canucks were out shooting them, and out chancing them for 2 periods - so the talent is there.
It's obvious that the Hamhuis goal killed the mojo in this team - that's what needs to change.

The own-goal was just one of those things. It'll happen every once in a while and you just forget about it and move on. The timing was awful - you're carrying the play and you finally tie it up against a hot goalie and then you're right back at the bottom of the hill, and then everyone is suddenly second guessing everything and it all comes off the rails. That's just sport, really.

 

[mossey3535]

Iginla had 12 points in 15 games.

But he had only 3 in the last two series, those numbers were inflated by their first series against NYI in which he had 9 points in 6 games. His next three points were in 9 games.

 

[CherryToke]

But he had only 3 in the last two series, those numbers were inflated by their first series against NYI in which he had 9 points in 6 games. His next three points were in 9 games.

you could say the same thing about Crosby.. I get your point that star players are often shutdown but that doesn't mean you can expect grinders to suddenly provide scoring because coach tells them to crash the net. you need someone capable of making plays so grinders can capitalize on lose pucks. We don't have enough players making plays.

 

[BoHorvatFan]

We already have Kesler, Booth, Higgins, Kassian, Hansen and Burrows who should be good for secondary scoring. With these guys, I don't see us bringing in outside help. No, these guys need to man-up and get it done...and for the most part last night they were, they just ran into a hot goalie. The Canucks were out shooting them, and out chancing them for 2 periods - so the talent is there.
It's obvious that the Hamhuis goal killed the mojo in this team - that's what needs to change.

This is the attitude that will get us our third straight first round exit. Hoping the same guys who have failed to get it done somehow magically get it done is a horrible strategy.

I've read the ''Booth is getting shots he's just unlucky, hot goalie...'' nonsense for years. The guy can have dozens of scoring chances it doesn't matter. He will rarely finish, he'll shoot into the crest. That won't change. Higgins... I have no faith in him providing any secondary scoring in the playoffs over the next 4 years.

You can shoot all you want, have all the chances you want but unless you have the skill to finish it means nothing. The only time we've looked like a bunch of snipers was against the Oilers... so if we meet that type of horrid goaltending in the playoffs we'll be just fine.

We desperately need outside help.

 

[Hal 9000*]

This is the attitude that will get us our third straight first round exit. Hoping the same guys who have failed to get it done somehow magically get it done is a horrible strategy.

I've read the ''Booth is getting shots he's just unlucky, hot goalie...'' nonsense for years. The guy can have dozens of scoring chances it doesn't matter. He will rarely finish, he'll shoot into the crest. That won't change. Higgins... I have no faith in him providing any secondary scoring in the playoffs over the next 4 years.

You can shoot all you want, have all the chances you want but unless you have the skill to finish it means nothing. The only time we've looked like a bunch of snipers was against the Oilers... so if we meet that type of horrid goaltending in the playoffs we'll be just fine.

We desperately need outside help.

I don't disagree with you, I just don't see that we are bringing in help. I'd just as soon lose Booth, I don't understand the Higgins love and I don't think Hansen will ever be anything more than what he is now...mediocre.

Frankly, I was hoping Booth would stay injured and we'd given Shinkaruk and Horvat a real opportunity. Why Dalphe is here....?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I don't disagree with you, I just don't see that we are bringing in help. I'd just as soon lose Booth, I don't understand the Higgins love and I don't think Hansen will ever be anything more than what he is now...mediocre.

Frankly, I was hoping Booth would stay injured and we'd given Shinkaruk and Horvat a real opportunity. Why Dalphe is here....?

re: hansen, once burrows is back in the lineup and kassian gets up to speed and hansen goes back to 3rd line RW, he'll be what he always has been: an elite grinder. mediocre is not a word i'd use to describe him when he's in his proper role.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

We already have Kesler, Booth, Higgins, Kassian, Hansen and Burrows who should be good for secondary scoring. With these guys, I don't see us bringing in outside help. No, these guys need to man-up and get it done...and for the most part last night they were, they just ran into a hot goalie. The Canucks were out shooting them, and out chancing them for 2 periods - so the talent is there.
It's obvious that the Hamhuis goal killed the mojo in this team - that's what needs to change.

That is a very dangerous leap of faith trusting those guys to score regularly...

 

[Hal 9000*]

That is a very dangerous leap of faith trusting those guys to score regularly...

I know...see post 467

 

[CanadianPirate]

You'd think if people were proven wrong every single year with the team's slow starts, they'd at least have the intelligence to have a bit of patience and hold off on predicting the next 76 games based on the first 6. Since 2008 the Canucks have a 22-20-3 record in October. Is anyone seriously surprised that 6 games in they're hovering around .500 while learning a new system? I know I'm not.

The Canucks might have a bad season and miss the playoffs, but nothing can be determined 2 weeks into the season.

You could apply the same logic to player development. Every year people complain that players like Kassian, Schroeder, Jensen, etc. aren't developing despite saying the same thing previously about Sedins, Kesler, Hansen, etc.

It seems to me that stupidity and lack of patience go hand in hand.

Thank you

Just so the pessimists understand, these guys (and Tiranis) aren't saying that the Canucks are going to have a good season. What they are saying is that it is too early to tell.

 

[Win One Before I Die]

Its too early to tell my ass. Same problems as last year.

Maybe its actually time to full time split the Sedins up?