Post-Game Talk: Game #59: Canucks lose 5-2 to the Canadiens

[Grumbler]

Well atleast we tried this game, can't diss the effort. At this point that is all I want anyways, accepted the fact this team is ****.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Edler may have been a -3 but I'd like to see more of these kind of games from him. He even buried Briere.

 

[Jack Tripper]

haven't watched a ton of canuck games or been engaged with the board recently, and didn't think that the team played as bad as a 5-2 score suggests...but man, this thread is a strangely emotionally detatched read, i guess when one mod declares it's fine when we win and fine when we lose and everybody just agrees there's not much to really go on from that

i'm pretty bothered with the idea of writing off the entire season and getting a draft pick around 10th to 15th overall...they're not going to tank bad enough to get a top-5 pick once the d-men come back, which means the reward for wasting a season with relatively old players will be moving up about 6-7 places in an average draft year

totally understand that taking away top centers and d-men for a few games will kill a team's offence, but if you focus on the players that have been around there's literally no good way of excusing such a prolongued scoring drought...we're moving closer to a point where a potential first line would be kassian-schroeder-higgins, and while that's good news for the depth forwards it's a pretty damning indictment of the team's top earners...several disturbing trends have been developed in the past 100 games or so, long before injuries hit

there's also the mental toughness issue that i'd also rather not even think about right now, even though i'm sure it's keeping tortorella up at night

finally, not sure why we're discussing the merits of dominating possession numbers in a game against a terrible possession team like montreal after being down 2-0 early, a scenario that will probably repeat itself in the toronto game...i'd much rather discuss the goal droughts of d sedin, burrows, booth, hansen, et al and what it means for the future

 

[y2kcanucks]

Well, that and reports that Daniel Sedin has been seen spending time with the trainers.

Gillis paused for 3 seconds and then proceeded to dance around the question for a reason. In the past he's been asked the same question about other players and has just said flat out no. He wasn't willing to do that.

Keep in mind you said there was no chance Henrik was playing hurt either. As it turned out, he was.

Confirmation bias. Just because Henrik ended up getting hurt doesn't mean he was playing hurt all year.

 

[Kickassguy]

Confirmation bias. Just because Henrik ended up getting hurt doesn't mean he was playing hurt all year.

Cuts both ways, man. Not trying to single you out here but the alternative to your statement is just as likely.

Just because nothing was said earlier doesn't mean he *wasn't* playing hurt most of the year, either.

Injuries or not, I think it's pretty clear the Sedins have taken a step back. I just don't believe they've regressed to quite the extent that you seem to think.

 

[NYVanfan]

Cuts both ways, man. Not trying to single you out here but the alternative to your statement is just as likely.

Just because nothing was said earlier doesn't mean he *wasn't* playing hurt most of the year, either.

Injuries or not, I think it's pretty clear the Sedins have taken a step back. I just don't believe they've regressed to quite the extent that you seem to think.

they were on fire to start the year ...everyone was saying how they looked good as ever. 2014 has just seen the whole team fall apart, sedins as well

 

[Grumbler]

I can't believe actually Daniel thought the team played really well this game.

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

If Hamuis, Tanev and Bieksa were in we had that game for sure.

 

[MrShift4]

Happy the PP scored

 

[Drop the Sopel]

Strong possession stats always bode well for a team, but good possession alone doesn't win games. You need to expose defenses and goaltenders too.

This is exactly how I see it. It's always going to be good to outshoot and outchance your opposition by as wide a margin as possible. But skill and talent still play an important role in what you do with those shots and opportunities.

If you can build a talented, skilled team that can win the possession battle, then you're really onto something. This is what Detroit did for so long and what the Hawks have been in recent years. The Canucks, not unlike the Kings just don't seem to have the personnel to convert on enough of these chances.

 

[Coach Parker]

Count yourselves lucky that you only have to go to Montreal once a year to deal with that officiating.

Seattle has the 12th man.
Montreal has the 5th Ref.

 

[stuffradio]

Alexi Emelin was fined $5k for butt-ending Pelletier.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=704248&navid=nhl:topheads

 

[me2]

This guy do anything about the Tatar kneeing?

 

[Hackett]

Olympics is literally going to save this team, hopefully in the second half of the season we can make a run again.

You know, the habs were dealing with some key injuries, and were out of the playoffs at the Olympic break in2010. They went into the break on a losing streak with a first year coach, and there wasn't much hope of a turnaround.

Then out of nowhere, they came out of the break and went on a run. That run came out of a seemingly tough road trip of the southwest.

As a result, the habs squeaked into 8th spot, and went on to beat the pens and caps in the playoffs. This nucks team is better than that habs team.

There is hope if for no other reason that the Olympics bring out more unlikely stories than usual. The canes made the finals in 02, then in 06 the oilers and canes made the finals, and the flyers made the finals as a 7 seed in 2010.

 

[Hackett]

Count yourselves lucky that you only have to go to Montreal once a year to deal with that officiating.

Seattle has the 12th man.
Montreal has the 5th Ref.

Boston fan, are we?

 

[NuxFan09]

Looks like the Coyotes are about to beat the Hawks in regulation (leading 2-0 with about a minute and a half to go). That'll officially put the Canucks in 9th in the conference.

 

[Betamax*]

Looks like the Coyotes are about to beat the Hawks in regulation (leading 2-0 with about a minute and a half to go). That'll officially put the Canucks in 9th in the conference.

Well, on a positive note, that moves the Canucks up in the draft selection order, eh?

 

[Bleach Clean]

This is exactly how I see it. It's always going to be good to outshoot and outchance your opposition by as wide a margin as possible. But skill and talent still play an important role in what you do with those shots and opportunities.

Really? What could outshooting an opponent by a wide margin imply that it should be construed as "always good"?

Also, how is skill and talent a divorced concept from outshooting an opponent? Wouldn't overall team talent be implied by the ability to consistently outshoot opponents?

If you can build a talented, skilled team that can win the possession battle, then you're really onto something. This is what Detroit did for so long and what the Hawks have been in recent years. The Canucks, not unlike the Kings just don't seem to have the personnel to convert on enough of these chances.

Conversion and shooting percentage doesn't always follow shooting talent either. SJ and DET are 25th and and 23rd in all situations shooting percentages. The Canucks are 27th. TOR is 5th. Does this denote the skill level of all teams accurately?

As was said, it's clear some use advanced stats as a base, and others do not. I see the Canucks as having the personnel to convert, who haven't converted at their normative rates, while others no longer see them as having the personnel to convert. What adds to the divide is that the injuries for Daniel and Burrows are known. So do we treat them as being unable to convert, or are they injured?

 

[luongo321]

Well, on a positive note, that moves the Canucks up in the draft selection order, eh?

In a crappy draft.

 

[Drop the Sopel]

As was said, it's clear some use advanced stats as a base, and others do not. I see the Canucks as having the personnel to convert, who haven't converted at their normative rates, while others no longer see them as having the personnel to convert. What adds to the divide is that the injuries for Daniel and Burrows are known. So do we treat them as being unable to convert, or are they injured?

I believe guys like Burrows and Daniel will rebound and score more goals next season. Do I believe improvements by a couple forwards will be enough to put this team in the top 10 in scoring next season? No. I don't believe the personnel is in place for this group to be a high scoring team.

They can be better - they cannot approach elite status IMO without significant additions. I don't see any of those additions coming by way of the farm, nor do I believe Gillis has the assets to go out and get these players through trade. So that leaves free agency. There is a hope there, as there is for the 20 odd other clubs that will be looking for offensive upgrades.

 

[Soth]

i'm pretty bothered with the idea of writing off the entire season and getting a draft pick around 10th to 15th overall...they're not going to tank bad enough to get a top-5 pick once the d-men come back, which means the reward for wasting a season with relatively old players will be moving up about 6-7 places in an average draft year

You're right, and several people have said this, but for some reason certain posters are frothing at the mouth and yelling tank. There is no way we win a race to the bottom vs the others that have already sunk like a stone to the bottom.

Once our guys are healthy, I think we'll be fine. We'll hopefully squeak into the playoffs and then anything can happen. If the team brings their A game throughout the playoffs, like they did against LA, we have as good a chance to win the cup as any team in the NHL.

 

[vanuck]

You're right, and several people have said this, but for some reason certain posters are frothing at the mouth and yelling tank. There is no way we win a race to the bottom vs the others that have already sunk like a stone to the bottom.

Once our guys are healthy, I think we'll be fine. We'll hopefully squeak into the playoffs and then anything can happen. If the team brings their A game throughout the playoffs, like they did against LA, we have as good a chance to win the cup as any team in the NHL.

I just want to see so bad what a fully healthy group could do. Until I've seen what they couldn't, I'll believe that we could have had a good chance against any team without everyone so banged up.

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

I just want to see so bad what a fully healthy group could do. Until I've seen what they couldn't, I'll believe that we could have had a good chance against any team without everyone so banged up.

Eureka! Nailed it for me.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I believe guys like Burrows and Daniel will rebound and score more goals next season. Do I believe improvements by a couple forwards will be enough to put this team in the top 10 in scoring next season? No. I don't believe the personnel is in place for this group to be a high scoring team.

Bolded is an arbitrary threshold that does not address the argument. Scoring what you think is enough vs. scoring enough to win more games.

They were 19th in G/G last year, and finished 3rd in the conference.

I'll ask again, why is outshooting an opponent "always good"?

They can be better - they cannot approach elite status IMO without significant additions. I don't see any of those additions coming by way of the farm, nor do I believe Gillis has the assets to go out and get these players through trade. So that leaves free agency. There is a hope there, as there is for the 20 odd other clubs that will be looking for offensive upgrades.

Well, additions are all well and good, but how significant they need to be (which is key) depends upon the quality of the current roster. Specifically, the core players. Also, what standard is used to project the current core's "rebound". If the rebound is significant enough to put Henrik and Daniel back in the 20-30 range for top scorers, and get Kesler about 10 points higher than he is now, then there are 3 elite forwards on the squad already IMO. Further addition will follow with that in mind.

In other words, using this abysmal performance (and I have remarked as such) as a base for future projection is already faulty logic - simply due to known injuries. If we introduce regression as another factor, then that's even more reason to stay away from the rash proposals.

By my estimation, Gillis has to make one big move where he doesn't use Edler in the exchange. That could include FA (likely), or a good trade. These two points cover the two forwards this team likely needs to rebound well. Then it's a matter of getting/staying healthy. Would it still be a doomsday prophecy if he were able to get these two assets?

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

That's what I like to read.