GDT: Game 57: Avs @ Senators | Thursday, February 11th, 5:30pm MT | Fade to Black

[AvsGuy]

Nobody stays hot for a full year, not sure what exactly you expect.

Plenty of players stay hot for a full year. Eventually we call them the top 5-10 scorers in the league, of which both of our guys are capable but seemingly distinterested. Cold stretches sure, but its not too much to ask at this point for our best players to put together consistently good seasons.

 

[Iceberg]

Plenty of players stay hot for a full year. Eventually we call them the top 5-10 scorers in the league, of which both of our guys are capable but seemingly distinterested. Cold stretches sure, but its not too much to ask at this point for our best players to put together consistently good seasons.

Duchene shouldn't get the "too young" treatment any longer, but MacKinnon still gets a pass, IMO.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Plenty of players stay hot for a full year. Eventually we call them the top 5-10 scorers in the league, of which both of our guys are capable but seemingly distinterested. Cold stretches sure, but its not too much to ask at this point for our best players to put together consistently good seasons.

They aren't top 5-10 players in the league, that's where expectations come in to play. And yeah Mack we don't know yet anyway.

 

[henchman21]

Some players are naturally streaky... Duchene is just one of those players. When he is hot, he is one of the top scorers in the NHL... when he is cold, he really struggles to put up any points. That is the difference between him being a ~65 point player and a PPG+ player.

It is too early to tell if MacK will be one of those players. He is still the youngest player on this team and is a year or two from really entering his prime scoring years. He still gets a pass IMO.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Some players are naturally streaky... Duchene is just one of those players. When he is hot, he is one of the top scorers in the NHL... when he is cold, he really struggles to put up any points. That is the difference between him being a ~65 point player and a PPG+ player.

It is too early to tell if MacK will be one of those players. He is still the youngest player on this team and is a year or two from really entering his prime scoring years. He still gets a pass IMO.

That's one thing about drafting a player like Landeskog versus someone like RNH, and the difference between a player like MacKinnon and a player like Barkov.

The more defensive minded player usually does not have to hit these lofty expectations for offensive production to be highly valued. Guys like Kopitar and Toews versus guys like Seguin.

Florida fans are going to drive us crazy if Barkov can hit point production in the mid 60s and MacK falls around 70 points consistently.

If MacK does not evolve into production closer to a point per game, Barkov will have higher over all value having to produce less offensively.

 

[AvsGuy]

It's just to the point where I wonder if Roy and Sakic's system really is hurting some players development. Remember the good old days when 2 or 3 of our lines had legit chemistry?

 

[henchman21]

MacK will produce and produce big. Just a matter of time with him... and it isn't the system that is the issue. It is the scoring depth of this team. There just isn't enough scoring talent.

 

[Freudian]

Even when Duchene hasn't been playing well, he's moving his feet and try to make things happen. He was bad the first 10-15 games but since then I don't have any issue with his play.

MacKinnon is however falling into what Duchene used to do when he struggled. Trying the same thing over and over again. MacKinnon gains the blue line and takes a wrist shot from the high slot. Never scores. I get that he doesn't have all the options in the world since the line mates are usually a step or two behind, but attacking as a one man unit in the NHL just doesn't work.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Even when Duchene hasn't been playing well, he's moving his feet and try to make things happen. He was bad the first 10-15 games but since then I don't have any issue with his play.

MacKinnon is however falling into what Duchene used to do when he struggled. Trying the same thing over and over again. MacKinnon gains the blue line and takes a wrist shot from the high slot. Never scores. I get that he doesn't have all the options in the world since the line mates are usually a step or two behind, but attacking as a one man unit in the NHL just doesn't work.

He's been doing that for awhile now and while it's true he teammates usually can't keep up with him, I'd like to see him slow down the game. I'm just not sure he's capable.

 

[CobraAcesS]

MacK will produce and produce big. Just a matter of time with him... and it isn't the system that is the issue. It is the scoring depth of this team. There just isn't enough scoring talent.

Yeah this is where I'm leaning right now, but it's getting tough not to be a little down on their production.

Plug1 - MacK - Plug2
Greg - Duchy - Plug3
Landy - Soda - Comeau

The centers should look like they did last night, except with Mitchell as the 4th line center. We don't have the depth to run lines that will support them offensively at this point though.

We're back to the old "When we have the winger depth our team will be good!"

Remember the Duchene, Stastny, O'Reilly days when they were all centers?

 

[dahrougem2]

Even when Duchene hasn't been playing well, he's moving his feet and try to make things happen. He was bad the first 10-15 games but since then I don't have any issue with his play.

MacKinnon is however falling into what Duchene used to do when he struggled. Trying the same thing over and over again. MacKinnon gains the blue line and takes a wrist shot from the high slot. Never scores. I get that he doesn't have all the options in the world since the line mates are usually a step or two behind, but attacking as a one man unit in the NHL just doesn't work.

He's been doing that for awhile now and while it's true he teammates usually can't keep up with him, I'd like to see him slow down the game. I'm just not sure he's capable.

He's tried slowing down the game doing that stupid button-hook as soon as he enters the blue-line (though he's stopped doing that lately), and it was awful. He just had no clue what to do with the puck and most of the time it resulted in a turnover.

For a player as fast as MacKinnon and as strong, it sure would be nice if he could learn how to drive the net wide on defensemen. Go wide, back them up and if they give you the lane then take it to the net. If not, stop up and quickly fire a shot on goal. It definitely beats shooting from where he is now, which won't beat goaltenders.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Even when Duchene hasn't been playing well, he's moving his feet and try to make things happen. He was bad the first 10-15 games but since then I don't have any issue with his play.

MacKinnon is however falling into what Duchene used to do when he struggled. Trying the same thing over and over again. MacKinnon gains the blue line and takes a wrist shot from the high slot. Never scores. I get that he doesn't have all the options in the world since the line mates are usually a step or two behind, but attacking as a one man unit in the NHL just doesn't work.

If his line mates are a step behind, he needs to take it down low and give them time to gain the zone. Hes got the speed and skill to hold onto the puck.

The way hes been doing something similar is by turning at the blue line sometimes due to defenders backing off, but that has not worked either.

Landeskog was great at this by chipping the puck down low at the blue line and beating the defender to it most of the time, which would establish a cycle in the O-zone. However Landeskog has not been carrying the puck up the ice on his line, that's been Comeau.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

He's tried slowing down the game doing that stupid button-hook as soon as he enters the blue-line (though he's stopped doing that lately), and it was awful. He just had no clue what to do with the puck and most of the time it resulted in a turnover.

For a player as fast as MacKinnon and as strong, it sure would be nice if he could learn how to drive the net wide on defensemen. Go wide, back them up and if they give you the lane then take it to the net. If not, stop up and quickly fire a shot on goal. It definitely beats shooting from where he is now, which won't beat goaltenders.

Exactly. There's nothing wrong with posting up to try and set up a play. There is an issue in posting up at the blue line though when you have the room to get to the hash marks at the very least. Mackinnon has the speed to make it to the bottom of the circle or corner pretty well any time he wants to go wide. This not only puts him in a more dangerous spot but also gives the other players an opportunity to catch up and get into scoring areas as well. Instead he posts up at the blue line and everyone else is at the red line. It's 1 on 3 by this point.

There's no shame in failing to get to the net when you're forcing wide. It's a tough league and even for the elite skaters with power that is touch to achieve consistently. That shouldn't mean once you know you wont achieve it you need to stop right away though.

edit: or just listen to Cobra

 

[CobraAcesS]

Exactly. There's nothing wrong with posting up to try and set up a play. There is an issue in posting up at the blue line though when you have the room to get to the hash marks at the very least. Mackinnon has the speed to make it to the bottom of the circle or corner pretty well any time he wants to go wide. This not only puts him in a more dangerous spot but also gives the other players an opportunity to catch up and get into scoring areas as well. Instead he posts up at the blue line and everyone else is at the red line. It's 1 on 3 by this point.

There's no shame in failing to get to the net when you're forcing wide. It's a tough league and even for the elite skaters with power that is touch to achieve consistently. That shouldn't mean once you know you wont achieve it you need to stop right away though.

Really thought when we drafted MacKinnon, that he would have higher hockey IQ. Either he just does not, or his frustration is doing the Duchy on his brain. He seemed to be a way better play-maker in his first year, than either this year or last year.

Edit : I've got a theory that MacK relies on whoever is to his left on his line heavily to compliment him with play-making ability. When he was at RW with Stastny is an example, and now with him 'liking' Tanguay, and later comments about wanting to play with Grigorenko on his LW in camp. Also taking into account his time with Drouin in junior, it sets a pattern. Hes also absolutely sucks at using Duchene when they were together. That line was most effective when Landeskog was on that line.

Either hes going to snap out of that and figure it out, or we need to get him a legit intelligent play-making LW.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Really thought when we drafted MacKinnon, that he would have higher hockey IQ. Either he just does not, or his frustration is doing the Duchy on his brain. He seemed to be a way better play-maker in his first year, than either this year or last year.

Yeah I have to say im disappointed by his IQ. Our team as a whole really lacks in that department. Outside of Soderberg, Grigorenko and Tanguay (who unfortunately doesn't have the body to keep up with his mind) we don't really have anybody with an IQ a whole lot higher than average it seems.

Nate's still going to be a top 5 player. His IQ isn't great but it's certainly not bad.

 

[tigervixxxen]

I really don't understand why Mack won't drive the net, hell Duchene does it more. I know it's not easy but he's a strong guy, when he has a step on the D challenge the net more. I'd also like to see him hold the puck and make a play other than when he enters the zone and pulls up. I'm not worried about him, let's not forget he's 20 and basically still leading the team in points. He will figure it out, it's just going to take time.

^ don't forget Bigras. They've drafted smart players, will just take time to get them in. But I do believe they highly value intelligence.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I really don't understand why Mack won't drive the net, hell Duchene does it more. I know it's not easy but he's a strong guy, when he has a step on the D challenge the net more. I'd also like to see him hold the puck and make a play other than when he enters the zone and pulls up. I'm not worried about him, let's not forget he's 20 and basically still leading the team in points. He will figure it out, it's just going to take time.

Yup. It's not that Mackinnon looks bad or anything like that. He's freaking incredible. It's just frustrating as fans to see simple things that could positively affect his game be overlooked by him.

edit: TV you're right about Bigras he has crazy intelligence on the ice. I was only thinking about forwards.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I really don't understand why Mack won't drive the net, hell Duchene does it more. I know it's not easy but he's a strong guy, when he has a step on the D challenge the net more. I'd also like to see him hold the puck and make a play other than when he enters the zone and pulls up. I'm not worried about him, let's not forget he's 20 and basically still leading the team in points. He will figure it out, it's just going to take time.

^ don't forget Bigras. They've drafted smart players, will just take time to get them in. But I do believe they highly value intelligence.

To start the year he was driving the net, but aside from really early on. He was eventually getting robbed by goalies on those moves, so he started sniping more, and it worked for a little while until he went into a funk where everything he shot went wide of the net. Then he stopped shooting and started trying to make plays, but it was never coming from below the goal line. It was at the half wall or doing that button hook crap.

Hes had everything that's worked eventually stop working, but never circled back around. Could be just an example of a young player who has not figured out how to use every tool he has inside of games and gets too focused on what's working at the moment and trying that over and over. Now he does not know what to do IMO.

This is where a guy like Stastny did, or like Eriksson would come in. Guys that have been in the league a little while and know how to keep their game dynamic, and can show him how to do those things on and off the ice.

If Tanguay could keep the hell up and could still skate he'd count, but he hurts the line hes on the ice with too much.

The next option Grigorenko, while he can make plays. Hes got his own inconsistency battles to fight IMO.

I do think putting Greg with Duchene instead of MacK was a mistake last night, but not a terrible one.

Edit : When Iginla was up on that line, I would have been really curious to see what would have happened for an entire game if Duchene was at LW and making plays with MacK. Because he can do those things, even if LW might not be the best option for him when it comes goal output.

 

[henchman21]

I don't think IQ is the issue with MacK, linemates are. He needs players that can play at multiple paces and give him more options with the puck. IMO the button hook/shot stuff is a bad habit created from a lack of options. When MacK is at his best, he is using his linemates in those situations instead of purely doing button hook shot. When he loses confidence in either himself or his teammates being in the right spots... he does this annoying play more often than not.

The Avs really only have one player that can play the game at multiple paces right now (Landy). In the past the Avs had ROR and Stastny as well, but both are now gone. No secret why MacK has looked his best when paired up with combos of those players. These players don't have to be fast (can't be slow either), but they need to think at high levels and know how to create space.

I hope Rantanen can read off players like MacK in the NHL... it would do wonders for Duchene and/or MacK and their games. A Callahan style workhorse would also probably help.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I don't think IQ is the issue with MacK, linemates are. He needs players that can play at multiple paces and give him more options with the puck. IMO the button hook/shot stuff is a bad habit created from a lack of options. When MacK is at his best, he is using his linemates in those situations instead of purely doing button hook shot. When he loses confidence in either himself or his teammates being in the right spots... he does this annoying play more often than not.

The Avs really only have one player that can play the game at multiple paces right now (Landy). In the past the Avs had ROR and Stastny as well, but both are now gone. No secret why MacK has looked his best when paired up with combos of those players. These players don't have to be fast (can't be slow either), but they need to think at high levels and know how to create space.

I hope Rantanen can read off players like MacK in the NHL... it would do wonders for Duchene and/or MacK and their games. A Callahan style workhorse would also probably help.

Yeah, just highlights the reasons this team needs Rantanen right now. I'd like to see one of Greg/Mikko with one of Duchy/MacK at all times in the future.

Personal preference would be Duchene (LH) - Rantanen (RW) & Grigorenko (LH) - MacK (RH). That's just the best natural fit based on where each player plays well naturally, and handedness.

 

[henchman21]

I don't think Grigo will ever be able to play at a high enough pace to match well with MacK or Duchene consistently. IMO a Grigo-Soda-Comeau line would actually work really well.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I don't think Grigo will ever be able to play at a high enough pace to match well with MacK or Duchene consistently. IMO a Grigo-Soda-Comeau line would actually work really well.

I feel the opposite. I feel the way Grigo is able to slow the game down and make time and space out of absolutely nothing is a total compliment to the game of Mack and Dutchy who just rush rush rush. I hope so anyway because we need one of them to be able to play with Rantanen who possesses the same quality!!

 

[henchman21]

I feel the opposite. I feel the way Grigo is able to slow the game down and make time and space out of absolutely nothing is a total compliment to the game of Mack and Dutchy who just rush rush rush. I hope so anyway because we need one of them to be able to play with Rantanen who possesses the same quality!!

MacK and Dutchy both need a player that can slow them down from time to time, but they also need players that can speed up with them as well. Landy can do it because he can simplify and become more of a physical presence... even grinder on the line. Grigo simply can't speed his game up... it is one pace and one pace only. Which is fine, but it will hold him back from clicking completely with Duchene and MacK.

I think Rantanen has shown quicker paces in flashes, but it is going to come from smarts and positioning more than physicality... kind of like how ROR worked with Duchene.

 

[dahrougem2]

I don't think Grigo will ever be able to play at a high enough pace to match well with MacK or Duchene consistently. IMO a Grigo-Soda-Comeau line would actually work really well.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. First you say, in your previous post, that players who work well with MacKinnon need to be able to play at multiple paces, think at high levels and know how to create space. IMO Grigorenko definitely thinks at a high level and he's learning how to create space given top-6 offensive and powerplay time. So why don't you think Grigorenko will ever be able to play at a high enough pace to work well with either MacKinnon or Duchene?

EDIT: Aaaaaaaaaaaand there's my answer in the post right above me lol. Although I do disagree on Grigs, I believe he can work well with either of them.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

MacK and Dutchy both need a player that can slow them down from time to time, but they also need players that can speed up with them as well. Landy can do it because he can simplify and become more of a physical presence... even grinder on the line. Grigo simply can't speed his game up... it is one pace and one pace only. Which is fine, but it will hold him back from clicking completely with Duchene and MacK.

I think Rantanen has shown quicker paces in flashes, but it is going to come from smarts and positioning more than physicality... kind of like how ROR worked with Duchene.

Yeah that's definitely possible unless Grigo learns to improve his skating. I get what you're saying. Rants definitely plays a faster game than Grigs.