GDT: Game 50: Avs vs. Wild - 7:30PM MT

[The Mars Volchenkov]

I think Graves is getting to the point where they trade Nemo or waive Barbs to keep him. We’ll see. Never know with this organization.

That being said, that shift he had what, 3 shots blocked in a row? I don’t think folks would be happy if EJ or Barrie did that. Graves and Nemeth got stuck out there for like 2 minutes as well because the Wild scored on the same shift. They were both dead by the time the puck went in.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I think Graves is getting to the point where they trade Nemo or waive Barbs to keep him. We’ll see. Never know with this organization.

That being said, that shift he had what, 3 shots blocked in a row? I don’t think folks would be happy if EJ or Barrie did that. Graves and Nemeth got stuck out there for like 2 minutes as well because the Wild scored on the same shift. They were both dead by the time the puck went in.

Some times you just have to teach people a lesson. Graves isn't going to be well known, but if he continues to lay it down like that they'll start to respect it. Besides a lot of times he does get it through.

Nice to see you say something positive about him though.

 

[Foppa2118]

Nice of you to disregard everything else I said in my post. Here is what I said again because obviously you missed a lot out of it:

*****
I don't want to blame Gru for this game because there were way too many big breakdowns. However......5 goals on 28 shots .821 sv% again. Come on.

Third period was pretty bad from everybody.
*****

I can't blame Bednar also. This is on the players. Bad execution and turnovers all over this game.

I didn't mean to disregard that, I know you weren't blaming Grubauer. I should have made that more clear. I was just giving you props for bringing it up when you didn't have to.

 

[Pokecheque]

I think Graves is getting to the point where they trade Nemo or waive Barbs to keep him. We’ll see. Never know with this organization.

That being said, that shift he had what, 3 shots blocked in a row? I don’t think folks would be happy if EJ or Barrie did that. Graves and Nemeth got stuck out there for like 2 minutes as well because the Wild scored on the same shift. They were both dead by the time the puck went in.

That wasn't on Graves or even Nemeth though, that was on the dumb forwards (Landeskog being one of them, I think Soderberg was the other), there were at least two separate occasions on that extended shift they had the puck in the NZ past the red line and could've easily dumped it for a quick change. Being a goal down they chose to try and make a play and it resulted in a turnover each time. Just one of many stupid decisions made by the otherwise smart players on this team.

Graves is going to have to learn how to get shots through traffic, but I didn't mind that sequence. They wanted him to use his shot, so he used it. I mean, what is he supposed to do while his teammates continually set him up for shots? It's not even getting it on net that's the problem it's the fact they still, after several seasons, don't have a guy who can reliably sit in the slot area and clean up rebounds.

I'm not gonna sit here and say Ryan Graves is going to be some huge difference-maker but I don't think they can demote him again. He was not only more effective at even strength than either of Nemeth or Barberio (and I'd argue he was better than Cole or Girard last night as well) but he was probably their best defenseman on the PK.

 

[Foppa2118]

You think that was the same team performance as what they did against Nashville? Well that moment ended quickly lol.

The Avs played a good game against Nashville for the most part, except for their usual 5-10 minutes of breakdowns and unnecessary mistakes that led to goals, along with poor goaltending. The turnovers and poor coverage throughout the game and before the goals showed that.

Tonight was the same thing. They played a good game for the most part, except for 5-10 minutes of breakdowns and unnecessary mistakes that led to goals. This time it was only one turnover but poor coverage and bad penalties on the others.

Turnovers, bad penalties, and bad coverage are what has been haunting this team along with the goaltending for over a month now. If it's not one thing it's another.

 

[CobraAcesS]

That wasn't on Graves or even Nemeth though, that was on the dumb forwards (Landeskog being one of them, I think Soderberg was the other), there were at least two separate occasions on that extended shift they had the puck in the NZ past the red line and could've easily dumped it for a quick change. Being a goal down they chose to try and make a play and it resulted in a turnover each time. Just one of many stupid decisions made by the otherwise smart players on this team.

Graves is going to have to learn how to get shots through traffic, but I didn't mind that sequence. They wanted him to use his shot, so he used it. I mean, what is he supposed to do while his teammates continually set him up for shots? It's not even getting it on net that's the problem it's the fact they still, after several seasons, don't have a guy who can reliably sit in the slot area and clean up rebounds.

I'm not gonna sit here and say Ryan Graves is going to be some huge difference-maker but I don't think they can demote him again. He was not only more effective at even strength than either of Nemeth or Barberio (and I'd argue he was better than Cole or Girard last night as well) but he was probably their best defenseman on the PK.

Can you imagine in Graves just plays at a level hes currently playing at, but is able to do it against better and better competition? We might actually be looking at a legit player.

 

[CobraAcesS]

The Avs played a good game against Nashville for the most part, except for their usual 5-10 minutes of breakdowns and unnecessary mistakes that led to goals, along with poor goaltending. The turnovers and poor coverage throughout the game and before the goals showed that.

Tonight was the same thing. They played a good game for the most part, except for 5-10 minutes of breakdowns and unnecessary mistakes that led to goals. This time it was only one turnover but poor coverage and bad penalties on the others.

Turnovers, bad penalties, and bad coverage are what has been haunting this team along with the goaltending for over a month now. If it's not one thing it's another.

They put up about as much fight as a wet noodle in the second half of that game.

 

[Foppa2118]

They put up about as much fight as a wet noodle in the second half of that game.

I think you might be disregarding how well Minny played defensively. The other problem is that MacKinnon wasn't nearly as effective after he took that puck off the skate, and this team is still too reliant on the top line.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

I didn't mean to disregard that, I know you weren't blaming Grubauer. I should have made that more clear. I was just giving you props for bringing it up when you didn't have to.

But I did have to. I wanted to. All your post proved is that the goals were not his fault. My post was to prove that again the SV% is crap and we are not getting saves when we need to. When we make mistakes it's in the back of the net. Minny made plenty of mistakes too but Dub made the saves except for two. Preds made a lot of mistakes but Rinne bailed them out. And they have arguably the best top-4 in the league. But Rinne made lots of great saves. We don't get many great saves. I think we got one last night on Mack's turnover with Zucker getting a breakaway.

I agree that last night the goalie was not the main reason for our lost. I already said that but let's not pretend he had a great game. He had one great save and a bunch of good and regular saves. Everything else went in. Like Bednar said we need one goalie to get hot. We have been waiting a long time for it now.

 

[Foppa2118]

But I did have to. I wanted to. All your post proved is that the goals were not his fault. My post was to prove that again the SV% is crap and we are not getting saves when we need to. When we make mistakes it's in the back of the net. Minny made plenty of mistakes too but Dub made the saves except for two. Preds made a lot of mistakes but Rinne bailed them out. And they have arguably the best top-4 in the league. But Rinne made lots of great saves. We don't get many great saves. I think we got one last night on Mack's turnover with Zucker getting a breakaway.

I agree that last night the goalie was not the main reason for our lost. I already said that but let's pretend he had a great game. He had one great save and a bunch of good and regular saves. Everything else went in. Like Bednar said we need one goalie to get hot. We have been waiting a long time for it now.

I agree almost entirely, except with the general idea that save percentage within a game can be relied upon to show that a goaltender isn't making saves when they need to. There's no way of distinguishing how good the scoring chances are when you do that. A goalie could let in five goals on five unstoppable shots and get pulled with a 0.0%

That's an extreme example, but there's plenty of room in the grey area for misinterpretation if you're just looking at the save percentage within a game. You have to weight the quality of scoring chances as well.

If not, you may not be acknowledging that the team is falling asleep for small stretches within games and having big breakdowns.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I agree almost entirely, except with the general idea that save percentage within a game can be relied upon to show that a goaltender isn't making saves when they need to. There's no way of distinguishing how good the scoring chances are when you do that. A goalie could let in five goals on five unstoppable shots and get pulled with a 0.0%

That's an extreme example, but there's plenty of room in the grey area for misinterpretation if you're just looking at the save percentage within a game. You have to weight the quality of scoring chances as well.

I mean that’s true. But an .860% over two months between 2 goalies comes down to bad goaltending no matter what. That’s what like 6% below average.

 

[Foppa2118]

I mean that’s true. But an .860% over two months between 2 goalies comes down to bad goaltending no matter what. That’s what like 6% below average.

Over the course of two months is definitely fair, though I think it's skewed slightly worse by the team problems. Still a fair point though.

My main point is regarding the one game save percentage evaluations.

 

[Pokecheque]

I think you might be disregarding how well Minny played defensively. The other problem is that MacKinnon wasn't nearly as effective after he took that puck off the skate, and this team is still too reliant on the top line.

This Avs team has proven before they can pick apart this Minny team defensively, and not just the top line either. They folded.

 

[AvsFan29]

Please be precautionary

 

[AllAboutAvs]

I agree almost entirely, except with the general idea that save percentage within a game can be relied upon to show that a goaltender isn't making saves when they need to. There's no way of distinguishing how good the scoring chances are when you do that. A goalie could let in five goals on five unstoppable shots and get pulled with a 0.0%

That's an extreme example, but there's plenty of room in the grey area for misinterpretation if you're just looking at the save percentage within a game. You have to weight the quality of scoring chances as well.

If not, you may not be acknowledging that the team is falling asleep for small stretches within games and having big breakdowns.

Agree with that. My main point was more along the line that yet again we had a well-below .900 SV%. These are becoming the norm when they should be the exceptions.

 

[Foppa2118]

This Avs team has proven before they can pick apart this Minny team defensively, and not just the top line either. They folded.

They haven't really showed that though. These are the games this year and the production from the top line.

4-1 win - 2 goals - Landeskog and Rantanen
3-2 loss - 1 goal - Landeskog
5-2 loss - 0 goals

Last year it was a similar theme in all but the last game.

3-2 loss - 0 goals
7-2 win - 2 goals - MacKinnon and Rantanen
7-1 win - 4 goals - MacKinnon, Rantanen, and Landeskog
5-1 win - 1 goal - MacKinnon

 

[CobraAcesS]

I agree almost entirely, except with the general idea that save percentage within a game can be relied upon to show that a goaltender isn't making saves when they need to. There's no way of distinguishing how good the scoring chances are when you do that. A goalie could let in five goals on five unstoppable shots and get pulled with a 0.0%

That's an extreme example, but there's plenty of room in the grey area for misinterpretation if you're just looking at the save percentage within a game. You have to weight the quality of scoring chances as well.

If not, you may not be acknowledging that the team is falling asleep for small stretches within games and having big breakdowns.

I feel like you're giving much more credence to goal-tending than you were when you first started this campaign. I won't concede that the issue stems more from team play than the quality of our goal-tending, but I'll concede they are linked. Especially on certain nights.

 

[Foppa2118]

I feel like you're giving much more credence to goal-tending than you were when you first started this campaign. I won't concede that the issue stems more from team play than the quality of our goal-tending, but I'll concede they are linked. Especially on certain nights.

That's mainly due to Varlmaov's last game. It just wasn't acceptable. I would say the stretch from December until now has been a combination of bad performances from one of the goaltenders, mixed with decent performances where they just couldn't make all the big saves, and then topped off with Varly's poor performance last game.

My main issue is that all the losses get distilled down to just goaltending or just coaching. It's nothing new, this literally always happens when teams have a bad season. They're both part of the problem, but so is the play from the players. The mistakes from the players don't get talked about enough.

When it gets this bad, it's not just one or two problems, it's multiple problems. That's why I've been trying to point out the other issues going on with this team.

 

[CobraAcesS]

That's mainly due to Varlmaov's last game. It just wasn't acceptable. I would say the stretch from December until now has been a combination of bad performances from one of the goaltenders, mixed with decent performances where they just couldn't make all the big saves, and then topped off with Varly's poor performance last game.

My main issue is that all the losses get distilled down to just goaltending or just coaching. It's nothing new, this literally always happens when teams have a bad season. They're both part of the problem, but so is the play from the players. The mistakes from the players don't get talked about enough.

When it gets this bad, it's not just one or two problems, it's multiple problems. That's why I've been trying to point out the other issues going on with this team.

Yeah I get it. I'm not really surprised they can't sustain the way they played in Nashville, CGY, TOR etc. Then they come out and make a lot of mistakes.

I think them going 110% to try and out work their goal-tending/defensive issues is only resulting in wider swings between the highs and lows of their play.

I don't know what Gallant does to his players water, but not many coaches can get an NHL team to go that hard consistently. Which is why I have a problem with Bednar's continued comments about effort and 2nd, and 3rd efforts when being asked about mistakes in the game.

The problem is obviously a culmination of various things. I think a lot of people have done a fairly good job of giving that credence personally.

 

[Foppa2118]

Yeah I get it. I'm not really surprised they can't sustain the way they played in Nashville, CGY, TOR etc. Then they come out and make a lot of mistakes.

I think them going 110% to try and out work their goal-tending/defensive issues is only resulting in wider swings between the highs and lows of their play.

I don't know what Gallant does to his players water, but not many coaches can get an NHL team to go that hard consistently. Which is why I have a problem with Bednar's continued comments about effort and 2nd, and 3rd efforts when being asked about mistakes in the game.

The problem is obviously a culmination of various things. I think a lot of people have done a fairly good job of giving that credence personally.

I've brought this up before, and it may not be part of the problem at all, but I keep wondering if there's a point of diminished returns in other areas with how hard Bednar has his players skate in games to play his system.

I'd have to sit down and watch a lot more Vegas games to see if they always play at the same pace, but I keep wondering if a lot of the problems with the Avs not scoring (lack of poise on passes and shots) and the way they'll play a near perfect 50 minutes of hockey with 5-10 minutes of maddening mistakes could be a result of that.

Not the genesis of the team's problems, but with their inability to compensate for other problems. Especially in the way they react when they give up a goal. They start gripping their sticks, missing good scoring chances, going off sides, losing their man in the D zone, turning pucks over repeatedly.

The top line are high end athletes in their prime and capable of playing at top speed all game, but I'm not sure everyone on the team can. Are the guys outside the top line just playing faster then they're capable of thinking the game? I don't know.

The goaltending is a problem for sure, but Bednar can't do much about that. He needs to find a way to eliminate these other problems plaguing the team though. Playing at a little less than 100 mph for certain shifts within games might help them regain some of that poise under pressure, but then again maybe not. It's hard to tell.

 

[S E P H]

I think Graves is getting to the point where they trade Nemo or waive Barbs to keep him. We’ll see. Never know with this organization.

That being said, that shift he had what, 3 shots blocked in a row? I don’t think folks would be happy if EJ or Barrie did that. Graves and Nemeth got stuck out there for like 2 minutes as well because the Wild scored on the same shift. They were both dead by the time the puck went in.

Oh no doubt there is probably a double standard here, but considering how every single play the entire team is making lately by either trying to be too cute or trying to shoot post and in every shot....I appreciate that he just kept shooting there. Even in the end it resulted in a Wild goal, but Avs had like three sequences to get the puck out and Wild kept dumping it back in.

I'm not even trying to make Graves look like a saviour because he was responsible for one or two of the goals yesterday, but I hope people understand why I was quite angry that they sent him down. He had a fantastic training camp even if he had a poor beginning of the season in the AHL.

 

[Foppa2118]

If Graves can play a solid physical defensive game, while skating and moving the puck decently, I'm not worried about him hitting shin pads with his shots.

He's not playing the same role EJ and Barrie are. He's a physical bottom pairing defenseman who isn't expected to score.

 

[Avelanche]

maybe i'm being too pessimistic after these past months but i think Graves is gonna become Holden where he's good his first couple months but then just becomes terrible. he's been good so far

 

[Metallo]

Personally, I don’t think that the Avs are playing that hard. We are not hard to play against, don’t finish our checks, don’t forecheck that much. I can’t say they leave it all out on the ice each and every game for the full game. Nothing special IMHO.

 

[the_fan]

logic