Post-Game Talk: Game 5: Avs @ Sens | South Park Hockey | Thursday Oct. 16th 5:30 MT

[Freudian]

Holden is uneven. He looks ok most of the time but it's like he's trying to play with too much poise and patience and he gets into trouble. If he tries to play quicker and simpler, he'd be better off.

 

[S E P H]

Holden is playing too many minutes and that is because Stuart hasn't looked that great with EJ. Hejda puck skills have regressed big time so we really cant rely on him playing top two lines. We really need that Karl Alzner or John Carlson type of defenseman to eat up minutes. E: I do agree with RS concerning Holden's defensive game, it was never that good to begin with, but he was much better at camp than what he is showing now. I am with Mars and how Holden was never able to bring it over.

I've watched a lot of Habs this year and Tom Gilbert has actually looked pretty damn solid, someone I wish the Avs went after instead of signing Guenin to an extension.

Even with Pickard's weak goals, Avs had enough offense, the lead, firepower, and five unit defense not to let the Senators come back into the game. And if Avs had gotten one more, the game would have went into OT.

 

[R S]

Pickard lasted the longest in camp. Chambers said last night Will was the next one to get called up. I guess he just made it up. I like Will but he hasn't even played an AHL game, how could anyone form a real opinion on him?

Holden is not that bad and he's not going anywhere. He's been playing top pairing with EJ, probably a big adjustment to make.

- My mistake

- Yes he is. Last year he made an impact because he scored a few goals. He was crappy defensively then and he's crappy defensively now. He also isn't doing anything offensively now, too.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Holden has been a pretty large disappointment. He had a great camp, looked good in pre-season, but nothing has carried over. He played well against Boston, and in the first period of Toronto, but other than that, hasn't been great.

Stuart on the third pairing should be alright. He's good on the PK, but the Avs need to put Redmond with him so someone can skate/move the puck.

If you are looking for that top LD spot to be great I think you will be disappointed. As long as that person is not letting in many goals I would say its a win at this point. IT would be awesome if we could form a dominate pair, but Ill settle for one that can just hold its own against the oppositions top lines with the personnel we have. Holden has yet to be the main cause for a GA IMO.

How many penalties have we had to kill already this year?
Roy sees Cliche as an integral part of our success on the PK.
He's given Everbeast a chance there, and apparently Roy wasn't impressed enough to keep him up over putting Cliche on waivers.
Everbeast can still be called up again -- and likely will be when more injuries hit the 3rd/4th lines.

I really dont think that is it. Maybe its just a coincidence, but Cliche's unit has had a lot of problems getting the puck out of the zone. Thats one big reason he has gotten so much PK time. I have not noticed that the few times with Everberg on the ice . It seems like the units switch anytime there is a good clear. On a good PK we will cycle through 4 or 5 different forward pairs. Cliche's pair is really the only one i have noticed get stuck in the zone for a long period of time.

And Everberg looked pretty good to me on the PK last night. better than Cliche. Of course Cliche has had a lot more time to show his bad side though.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

I wonder if the Avs are practicing today. This tight schedule to start the year can't help with cohesion, as you can't get any good practices in because of so many games packed together. Next week is much slower, so maybe that will help.

 

[hockeyfish]

Holden seems to play his best when paired with Barrie, and will go back with him soon. I think the team, as soon as they can get past this little goalie shortage, will make a big move to grab someone. At the very least, we know they aren't going to stubbornly waste the season with Stuart play on the top pairing.

 

[Foppa2118]

- My mistake

- Yes he is. Last year he made an impact because he scored a few goals. He was crappy defensively then and he's crappy defensively now. He also isn't doing anything offensively now, too.

Holden hasn't been that good this year (no one has really) but you're severly underrating his second half of the season last year. Post Olympic break he was very good, especially in the playoffs where he was probably their best d man, and that includes defensively. He was crappy defensively the first half of the season, but he was anything but that in the second half.

 

[Freudian]

As hard as it can be at the moment, you can't be too result oriented.

Avs were as good as Wild in game 2 and as good as Boston in game 3. They were the better team for two periods against Leafs and Sens. They just had two really poor third period that messed things up. There are things to address but it's not like they're in free fall. Line chemistry is slowly getting better. The goalie situation is annoying but it's pure bad luck. It could happen to any team and now it happened to Avs. Five of the first six games are on the road.

I think Avs will be fine. They still clearly are a work in progress but I think at the end of the season they'll be a better team than last year. They have to start getting some points though. You can end up in too deep of a hole in October. Ugly wins for a week. Deal?

 

[BB1133]

As someone who's watched him the last few years he's been absolutely hated on by Boston fans and the Pens fans had mixed emotions about him because he produced going into the playoffs where it was possibly just the coach mismanaging him at the time.

Back to Boston though, he looked slow and played a lot of perimeter hockey. Had something like 4 goals in his first 25 games (you'd have to look that up, but it's close enough) before he picked up the pace. He skates like he's wearing cement boots a good portion of the time, but he still shows flashes of being an impact player. With Iggy I think he's still useful for his one timer on the PP and he did score or contribute on the rush a lot with the bruins (goes to the net), but he doesn't really have the speed to get in there on the forecheck anymore and create any sustained pressure which leads to a lot of him looking like a passenger on his line when his teammates can't or don't win board battles consistently (played with Lucic and Krejci.. so hardly an issue when they were playing well).

Hope this gives you a bit more of an understanding of what to expect from him. He might somehow put in another 30 goals, but he's not going to look great doing it.

It's still really early, but I'm pretty concerned about his value going forward.

There was a good article here about how players decline with age, and Iggy's shot attempts have continued to slide (down 20% last year).

Yea, that's to be expected, but at some point they cross that threshold into uselessness.

I just hope we can get at least one good year out of him...

 

[Bubba Thudd]

I'm sorry but Guenin and Cliche are not good enough on the PK to be kept in the lineup over Redmond and especially Everberg...

You have O'Reilly, Talbot, Mitchell (Added), Landeskog, and Mcleod who can all PK as forwards. Not that Duchene is a main option, but he likes doing it and is good at it as well.

O'Reilly and Landeskog really should see time on the PK with their defensive ability. I understand wanting to conserve your top players energy, but they should be second unit on a regular basis IMO. It's wasting two players natural ability.

Then EJ, Stuart, Hejda, and Holden can all play on the PK as well.

Count me as tired of that excuse...

Guenin throwing the puck over the glass made me want to

I wouldn't mind seeing one of ROR, Landy, or Dutch on each PK unit. Gives an offensive threat. Shorties are nice!

 

[Bubba Thudd]

I wonder if the Avs are practicing today. This tight schedule to start the year can't help with cohesion, as you can't get any good practices in because of so many games packed together. Next week is much slower, so maybe that will help.

Let them practice faceoffs. It needs to improve, and shouldn't be too tiring in a tough schedule.

 

[linusandvarlamov]

Just finished watching the entire replay of the match on Game center and the Avs looked pretty decent in the 1st two periods. It almost seems as if the top lines are starting to find some chemistry which is quite encouraging ! I think the Avalanche looked best in the second half of the second period of play (in between 10 minutes and 3 minutes remaining in the second). They were getting some good puck movement going there.

It really is disappointing Berra got injured ! Hope Varly is back soon ! Our team has been pretty unlucky since the beginning of the year and we haven't particularly started the season off very well ! But I think things will fix themselves.

One thing is for sure : we need to take less penalties !!

 

[Joe Sakic]

Stuff like this is why I hardly ever even take a glance into these gameday threads.

People are actually going to pin this loss on Pickard?

The kid was thrown into the fire, his first NHL game, without even getting a morning skate in. He battled hard and did his best. He looked just fine to me considering the circumstances, especially when most people would list him as the team's 4th goalie (Aitto would be my choice as #3).

Not only were all those factors in play, but he didn't seem to get much puck luck tonight. There were a ton of tip plays around the crease and just weird bounces in general that made him look even more uncomfortable than he probably already was.

- 1st goal against - 9 times out of 10 that quick shot from Lazar would have bounced off a goalies stick and into the netting. Not only did that not happen here, but Smith just managed to be the first one to the loose puck.

- 2nd goal against - A weird bounce off a body goes right to Legwand, who has an open net tap in. On the PP. That's his fault, how? The team shouldn't even have been shorthanded if it wasn't for a stupid penalty from Guenin.

- 3rd goal against - Probably should have had this one, although credit to Ryan for recognizing the situation and quickly snapping it on net.

- 4th goal against - Tough play on a bang-bang deflection. Got most of it, but just not enough. He was square, it just found a hole and crawled through. Shouldn't have been a chance if it wasn't for the neutral zone giveaway, the soft play at the blueline by Holden or the miles of space Holden gave to Stone.

The only goal I think you can really blame him for was the Ryan shot. And even then a Sens player skated right through his sight line at the last second.

People should be just fine with Pickard as the club's 4th goalie. He was just fine in his emergency NHL debut tonight and is certainly not the main reason why Colorado lost.

Is this serious? You sound like Pickard's agent or something. All 4 goals were bad goals to give up.

- 1st goal: This is the only one that I wouldn't entirely blame on Pickard but it was still terrible rebound control and wtf was he doing after the shot deflected in the air? Just stood there looking around. He should have backed into his net crouching down ready for a rebound shot.

- 2nd goal: Should have been a routine shot right into his glove and a whistle. But no, it hits him directly in the glove, bounces out, and right to the Sens player. Terrible rebound control again. I mean seriously...it hit him square in the glove...how does he not catch that? Bush league imo.

- 3rd goal: This was the worst one. Looked like an ECHL level goalie on this one. The shot is 15 feet out with no screen in front and sliding directly on the ice. Routine and easy save if I've ever seen one. Puck slips right through him. Embarrassingly terrible.

- 4th goal: Was late getting into proper positioning and the puck squeezes right through him. Not terrible, but a bad goal to give up imo.



And I'm not buying the whole "He was thrown to the wolves". "He didn't even get a practice in with them". "He wasn't ready/prepared for this" bullcrap. He is a professional athlete. This is his only job. This is his 9-5 every single day. Whether he was ready or not I don't know, but he should have been ready.

 

[Tommy Shelby]

- Yes he is. Last year he made an impact because he scored a few goals. He was crappy defensively then and he's crappy defensively now. He also isn't doing anything offensively now, too.

Yeah I agree 100% with this, I've always said Holden would be better suited at forward because he's just not mobile enough or defensively smart enough to be anything more than an 10-14 minute per game bottom-pairing guy on a bad team.

He's a big body with a good shot, pretty much the only things he's got going for him. His passing is decent at best, and he lacks any sort of poise needed to be a good defenseman in the NHL.

He's like a worse version of Bryan McCabe.

 

[tigervixxxen]

He's a human too. Nobody can give their best when they are not physically able to give 100%. Yes it's his job to be ready but he can't waive a magic wand either. How many players wake up in one city, bus to another city, fly to a third city and then go from #3 goalie to on the ice in your NHL debut in the span of about 8 hours. I don't care who you are you'd be a bit unnerved. If it were any other player that suited up in that type of situation where they didn't even get to start the game I wouldn't expect their best either. I don't think he would have been spectacular otherwise but at least he would have been prepared.

 

[Sheet]

Is this serious? You sound like Pickard's agent or something. All 4 goals were bad goals to give up.

- 1st goal: This is the only one that I wouldn't entirely blame on Pickard but it was still terrible rebound control and wtf was he doing after the shot deflected in the air? Just stood there looking around. He should have backed into his net crouching down ready for a rebound shot.

- 2nd goal: Should have been a routine shot right into his glove and a whistle. But no, it hits him directly in the glove, bounces out, and right to the Sens player. Terrible rebound control again. I mean seriously...it hit him square in the glove...how does he not catch that? Bush league imo.

- 3rd goal: This was the worst one. Looked like an ECHL level goalie on this one. The shot is 15 feet out with no screen in front and sliding directly on the ice. Routine and easy save if I've ever seen one. Puck slips right through him. Embarrassingly terrible.

- 4th goal: Was late getting into proper positioning and the puck squeezes right through him. Not terrible, but a bad goal to give up imo.



And I'm not buying the whole "He was thrown to the wolves". "He didn't even get a practice in with them". "He wasn't ready/prepared for this" bullcrap. He is a professional athlete. This is his only job. This is his 9-5 every single day. Whether he was ready or not I don't know, but he should have been ready.

So wait. Playing in the AHL and playing in the NHL (Pretty much the same thing I guess) for his first ever appearance after traveling all day to get there and literally being thrown in on a moments notice without even getting a realistic warm up doesn't count for anything?

It's his job to start in the AHL. This is like expecting mitchel and cliche to produce at duchene/mack's level because they're professional athletes and it's their new job when it falls to them.

Seriously? I thought he actually looked pretty ok all things considered and would be down for giving him another look.

 

[R S]

So wait. Playing in the AHL and playing in the NHL for his first ever appearance after traveling all day to get there and literally being thrown in on a moments notice without even getting a realistic warm up doesn't count for anything?

It's his job to start in the AHL. This is like expecting mitchel and cliche to produce at duchene/mack's level because they're professional athletes and it's their new job when it falls to them.

Seriously? I thought he actually looked pretty ok all things considered and would be down for giving him another look.

All of this.

 

[hockeyfish]

Yeah I agree 100% with this, I've always said Holden would be better suited at forward because he's just not mobile enough or defensively smart enough to be anything more than an 10-14 minute per game bottom-pairing guy on a bad team.

He's a big body with a good shot, pretty much the only things he's got going for him. His passing is decent at best, and he lacks any sort of poise needed to be a good defenseman in the NHL.

He's like a worse version of Bryan McCabe.

Thats being too harsh, he really did improve a lot last year. Still not a top pairing guy, but I think placing him next to Barrie will do a lot of good. He has become a lot stronger on his skates and isn't quite the slug he was.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Roy's presser posted now in media thread. If we want to know what's really going on with the team we'll need a translation.

 

[ghostofweezman]

Lots of vitriol to be found. I was reminded of some of those preseason interviews from Roy and/or Sakic where they were preaching that folks shouldn't expect the same thing as last year. IIRC even Landeskog was preaching this too. Perhaps this is the kind of stuff they were eluding too. Losing the top two goalies on this road trip hurts and I know I am going to adjust my expectations from it. This team hasn't gotten it figured out yet but it's early. To be honest, I think there is optimism that if this team does get it figured out they will be pretty dangerous.

 

[Foppa2118]

Is this serious? You sound like Pickard's agent or something. All 4 goals were bad goals to give up.

- 1st goal: This is the only one that I wouldn't entirely blame on Pickard but it was still terrible rebound control and wtf was he doing after the shot deflected in the air? Just stood there looking around. He should have backed into his net crouching down ready for a rebound shot.

- 2nd goal: Should have been a routine shot right into his glove and a whistle. But no, it hits him directly in the glove, bounces out, and right to the Sens player. Terrible rebound control again. I mean seriously...it hit him square in the glove...how does he not catch that? Bush league imo.

- 3rd goal: This was the worst one. Looked like an ECHL level goalie on this one. The shot is 15 feet out with no screen in front and sliding directly on the ice. Routine and easy save if I've ever seen one. Puck slips right through him. Embarrassingly terrible.

- 4th goal: Was late getting into proper positioning and the puck squeezes right through him. Not terrible, but a bad goal to give up imo.



And I'm not buying the whole "He was thrown to the wolves". "He didn't even get a practice in with them". "He wasn't ready/prepared for this" bullcrap. He is a professional athlete. This is his only job. This is his 9-5 every single day. Whether he was ready or not I don't know, but he should have been ready.

So you're saying a young rookie goaltender absolutely should have a strong first game in the NHL no matter what the circumstances, and saying otherwise is just giving him cheap excuses? That's ridiculous.

Your expectations are way too high. If the best goalie in the world can have bad games, so can Pickard in the situation he was in for his first NHL game.

 

[ChrisNI]

Stuff like this is why I hardly ever even take a glance into these gameday threads.

People are actually going to pin this loss on Pickard?

The kid was thrown into the fire, his first NHL game, without even getting a morning skate in. He battled hard and did his best. He looked just fine to me considering the circumstances, especially when most people would list him as the team's 4th goalie (Aitto would be my choice as #3).

Not only were all those factors in play, but he didn't seem to get much puck luck tonight. There were a ton of tip plays around the crease and just weird bounces in general that made him look even more uncomfortable than he probably already was.

- 1st goal against - 9 times out of 10 that quick shot from Lazar would have bounced off a goalies stick and into the netting. Not only did that not happen here, but Smith just managed to be the first one to the loose puck.

- 2nd goal against - A weird bounce off a body goes right to Legwand, who has an open net tap in. On the PP. That's his fault, how? The team shouldn't even have been shorthanded if it wasn't for a stupid penalty from Guenin.

- 3rd goal against - Probably should have had this one, although credit to Ryan for recognizing the situation and quickly snapping it on net.

- 4th goal against - Tough play on a bang-bang deflection. Got most of it, but just not enough. He was square, it just found a hole and crawled through. Shouldn't have been a chance if it wasn't for the neutral zone giveaway, the soft play at the blueline by Holden or the miles of space Holden gave to Stone.

The only goal I think you can really blame him for was the Ryan shot. And even then a Sens player skated right through his sight line at the last second.

People should be just fine with Pickard as the club's 4th goalie. He was just fine in his emergency NHL debut tonight and is certainly not the main reason why Colorado lost.

Pretty much this.

It was just pure bad luck but Pickard played really well for his first NHL start which must have given him huge nerves to start with, nevermind getting thrown in unexpectedly, travelled all day, didn't get a morning skate and had to play with some terrible defense.

But yes absolutely it's all the rookie goalies fault

I question if some people even watch the games or even realise it's a team game....one guy doesn't make or break a game!

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Well there goes my undefeated record.

Avs should've won that game and would have if Berra didn't get injured. This just shows you how bad the sense are.

No lines are clicking right now and I'm still not sure why ROR/Dutchy aren't reunited. This whole 3 line thing isn't working.

O'rielly looks lost, Mack looks terrible and duchene isn't much better.

Speaking of Duchene and Mack anyone thinking Nathan would be the better this year is out to lunch. Thought that in the summer and it's obvious this early into the season the kid still has a lot to learn.

I think once, the lines are returned to what they should be the offence will be fine.

My biggest concern is the defence, Holden is being ask to do waaaay too much. He should be at most a 4th guy(I'm being generous) but he's being played as a #2.

I'm trying fathom how not only did Stuart get a contract but an extension before playing a single game. He looks horrible, can't pass, can't skate and can't defend.

Oh and Briere has lost all his speed and quickness... not that this is news to anyone. It's just a bit more obvious from watching him live.

All in all I think this team is still what most people have it ranked a playoff bubble team. Roy just has to make some necessary adjustments. Looking at it from the other end, it could end up being a horrible year if varly goes down or a couple of things don't go our way. Just my 2 cents.

 

[The Shermanator]

ROR is sad. Posting pictures of guitar shops trying to cheer himself up.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

Pickard bailed the team out of other almost sure-fire goals. If he had been like any other goalie and saved the routine ones and let in the impossible saves, we'd still have lost 4/5-3.

Cut the kid some slack, he kept the Avs in the game until they decided to feed him to the wolves.