GDT: Game 47: Avalanche @ Blues (6 pm MT, Jan. 19, 2015)

[The Mars Volchenkov]

We don't have a solid breakout strategy. Often they basically have no other choice.

I am surprised that you would see Barrie as the worst culprit. Maybe because he has the most clearing attempts because Guenin doesn't even really try anymore and just gives it to Barrie.

I think Barrie tries to skate out the puck pretty often or give an outlet pass when he is not under heavy pressure.

Last night was an off game for him , though. You very well might be right.

Barrie has had a lot of off games this year. Like the rest of the young core, he just hasn't been very good this season. He had a 10 game stretch where he looked like he did last year, but other than that, it's just not been a good year for him. He's still putting up points, but he doesn't look the same. He's not pushing the pace like last year, and he keeps trying to skate around everyone in the defensive zone instead of making a simple pass. I think teams have caught onto his game, just like MacKinnon, and he's got to adjust.

 

[InjuredChoker]

It's painful to watch. The defense can't even complete a pass to each other. Hejda is pretty bad at it as well.

I'll admit that I was surprised when McKenzie said the Avs are looking for a RHD in any ROR trade, but when you watch games like last night, you can see why. Barrie struggles against a forecheck and he's just too small and weak defensively to handle top 6 forwards. Getting him on the 3rd pairing and giving him even more favorable matchups would be a good thing. It would also help if he had a decent partner, but baby steps.

Last night was pretty painful, but for some reason I'm not able to just turn games off, no matter how bad.

i'd give barrie a legit top 4 partner, or even legit NHL defender, before i'd make conclusions that he can't handle 2nd pairing role.

he has to do it all by himself as if he gives the puck to guenin, that's an instant icing or giveaway.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

i'd give barrie a legit top 4 partner, or even legit NHL defender, before i'd make conclusions that he can't handle 2nd pairing role.

he has to do it all by himself as if he gives the puck to guenin, that's an instant icing or giveaway.

I did mention that a better partner would help him, but he still has a lot of strides to make defensively before I'd consider him a top 4 defenseman. He makes a lot of basic fundamental mistakes defensively, like positioning of his stick and his body.

In the 10 game stretch where he did look great, he did a great job of drawing pressure to himself and then handing it off to Guenin, who had no pressure because Barrie drew the forecheckers to himself. Now he's just trying to do everything himself and get around everyone in the defensive zone and it's just not working.

He's still very young, but I'm just saying I can see why the Avs would want another RHD to shield Barrie even more defensively.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I did mention that a better partner would help him, but he still has a lot of strides to make defensively before I'd consider him a top 4 defenseman. He makes a lot of basic fundamental mistakes defensively, like positioning of his stick and his body.

In the 10 game stretch where he did look great, he did a great job of drawing pressure to himself and then handing it off to Guenin, who had no pressure because Barrie drew the forecheckers to himself. Now he's just trying to do everything himself and get around everyone in the defensive zone and it's just not working.

He's still very young, but I'm just saying I can see why the Avs would want another RHD to shield Barrie even more defensively.

did he stop doing that because he forgot how effective guenin was with his outlet passing or because guenin couldn't do anything with the puck when got it (except icing it)?

 

[The Kingslayer]

I wish the Avs would play like the Blues did in the 2nd period.

The Avs scored 10 goals during this 5 game trip. That's not good enough.

The Blues, much like every other team in the league, can make and receive a pass. The Avs cant make or receive passes. I dont know how Patrick hasnt just said **** it and went old school Gordan Bombay egg passing drills. The passing is atrocious. Why is the PP bad? We cant make a proper pass. Why cant we score goals? Our Dman save for Johnson dont know how to pass and on the odd chance they do make a pass our forwards dont know how to receive it. I cant recall a time when the passing was this bad.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

did he stop doing that because he forgot how effective guenin was with his outlet passing or because guenin couldn't do anything with the puck when got it (except icing it)?

OK, I get that Guenin sucks, but people need to stop blaming him for all of Barrie's problems. In that span when Barrie would draw the pressure to himself and hand it off to Guenin, Guenin did a surprisingly decent job of moving the puck, but that's because he had no pressure on him. When Guenin (or Hejda, or Stuart, or Holden) have any pressure on them, of course they can't move the puck. For whatever reason, Barrie just stopped doing it, and what he's doing now isn't working any better.

 

[cgf]

How many scoring chances did the Avs have? Three? Four?

Not all that many less than the Blues? And that's what I was getting at with the "they didn't turn it up quite enough or early enough" part of my post. They responded, but didn't have that last little bit to turn the game around and convert their better play into an equalizer.

 

[cgf]

The Avs played better last night than when they got shutout by Marty... low standard, but true.

Well yeah, they were actually awful in the marty shutout, whereas this game they were only genuinely bad for the larger part of the second period.

 

[m0ngr31]

It's so frustrating to try and watch them break out of the zone and then just fail immediately. I honestly think we do a better job of breaking out when someone like Johnson or Barrie just go on a rush by themselves. It's too bad they usually just chip it in and go for a change because they are too tired since they just spent a minute in the defensive zone by that point though.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Weird, coincidence, I turned it off after the 2nd too. I wasn't interested in subjecting myself to that level of effort, it was painful to watch.

What I've begun focusing on and is utterly maddening is how the defenders constantly chip the puck up the boards to the other team when in our zone. Every. Damn. Shift. Barrie is the worst culprit of this.

Were you paying attention to the shift changes? I'm thinking this is a result of just getting stuck in our zone for too long that we are just trying to change lines/pairs as oppose to actually trying to generate offense. So we forfeit the puck over to them in favor of getting fresh legs on the ice. But I dont typically watch the line changes so not sure how often we make a change after these chips up the boards.

 

[S E P H]

Painful game to watch. I finally had to turn it off for a bit, because this team is playing an absolutely unwatchable brand of hockey right now.

Pierre Maguire kept saying how the Avs were getting completely outworked along the boards, and it's obvious why. Roy just wants his players to collapse inward in the defensive zone and block shots. For all the glaring mistakes Barrie made, and yes, he made plenty last night, he at least was engaged. Guenin on the other hand, would cover the net and whenever a Blues player wandered over to his side instead of rushing over to crunch him in the corner he'd float between the player and net. I don't completely blame Guenin here, for once, he's doing what his coaches are telling him to do.

Roy also needs to start telling certain d-men to quit pinching. Stuart and Guenin have no business being anywhere in the offensive zone except for the points.

Again, not calling for the coach's head here, but he's icing a team with a very bad, very slow D, relying too much on grinders, and employing an passive shot-blocking defensive scheme that's only making the problem worse. He is a BIG part of the problem and doing a piss-poor job of coaching whether anyone here wants to say so or not.

1st bold: That is Alain Vigneault's gameplan when he was with the Canucks and currently with the Rangers. He collapses every forward and defenseman into the slot perimeter to cover this area of the ice. Roy was doing this yesterday because Blues really rely on that one timer just outside and inside the slot. Now you're going to tell me how Vigneault, who has went to two Cup finals is a bad coach?

2nd and 3rd bold: These two sentences don't match up. You're not calling for Roy's head, but completely blaming him for majority of everything? Just. Doesn't. Make. Any. Sense. If you truly need someone to blame, why don't you blame the previous front office for not fixing the defensive core instead of Patrick Roy's 136th game behind the bench....great coaches like Babcock, Sutter, Julien, and Trotz are not all made overnight. And to be honest, I don't think Roy has been that bad this season behind the bench, I consider more of his faults with Sakic calling players agents for extension.

 

[IceRat]

not reading through anything in this thread yet so I'm sure nothing I contribute will be new

this "team" is just flat out painful to watch ... even when they are winning (ex. Chicago)

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

Were you paying attention to the shift changes? I'm thinking this is a result of just getting stuck in our zone for too long that we are just trying to change lines/pairs as oppose to actually trying to generate offense. So we forfeit the puck over to them in favor of getting fresh legs on the ice. But I dont typically watch the line changes so not sure how often we make a change after these chips up the boards.

The Avs have had a nasty habit of turning over possession since 2008. You'll notice the best teams often try to maintain possession during line changes and they did an admiral job at this during the TBL game when they were flying. But against the Blues they would dump and change everytime Roy whistled for them.

But that's not even what I'm referring to. When the Avs defenders aren't icing the puck, they're often just chipping it up the boards where the other team is already waiting for the puck due to scouting/video of our defensive play. They turn over the puck instantly and get hemmed back in. I've seen Barrie making these panic plays the most because he's the weakest defender and would lose the puck to physical play often.

Last night he was partially responsible for two goals, the 1st goal was indirectly the result of sustained pressure due to him turning over the puck at our blue line and the 3rd goal was a direct result of defending the wrong side of Oshie, which gave him the time needed to get the rebound and stuff it past Varly.

Last year Barrie did more offensively to make up for his defensive lapses, this year he's been the opposite since around game 20. He panics too quickly, refuses to use his teammates (sometimes for good reason) and can't gain the zone with much success. He's also shooting a lot less and when he has opportunities to shoot (like the 3 on 2 last night) he's trying to force a pass.

This year is the story of growing pains and Barrie has started to go through them. As with many young teams, when one or two players struggle it seems to trickle down to other players who start to clench their sticks a bit too tight to try and make up for the other's struggles. This team needs a hero right now from the forwards and the only two that can do it, Duchy/MacK, are both two of the guys struggling the most.

 

[IceRat]

My point was and still is that the game last night should not lead us to think that the current Avs team is terrible.

agreed ......










..... it should have been realized well before last night's game

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

The Avs have had a nasty habit of turning over possession since 2008. You'll notice the best teams often try to maintain possession during line changes and they did an admiral job at this during the TBL game when they were flying. But against the Blues they would dump and change everytime Roy whistled for them.

But that's not even what I'm referring to. When the Avs defenders aren't icing the puck, they're often just chipping it up the boards where the other team is already waiting for the puck due to scouting/video of our defensive play. They turn over the puck instantly and get hemmed back in. I've seen Barrie making these panic plays the most because he's the weakest defender and would lose the puck to physical play often.

Ah, I see what you mean. Yeah, those plays are even more annoying. Can't even get fresh legs on the ice.

 

[Freudian]

It's not all on the defenders though. How often when Avs try to break out does Avs have one winger standing still at the other blue line and one winger standing still at the near red line? How on earth are you supposed to create offense when most breakout options have Avs tip the puck deep without anyone coming with speed to get to the puck?

Look at how teams like Blues and Blackhawks, who have coaches that always focus on being good in transition have their forwards and the other defender support the guy with the puck.

 

[InjuredChoker]

OK, I get that Guenin sucks, but people need to stop blaming him for all of Barrie's problems. In that span when Barrie would draw the pressure to himself and hand it off to Guenin, Guenin did a surprisingly decent job of moving the puck, but that's because he had no pressure on him. When Guenin (or Hejda, or Stuart, or Holden) have any pressure on them, of course they can't move the puck. For whatever reason, Barrie just stopped doing it, and what he's doing now isn't working any better.

i disagree guenin did good job moving the puck.

i'm not blaming him for all of barrie's problems. barrie will always have some issues on defensive side of the puck. i'm saying that the primary target should be LD, not RD because barrie can't handle 2nd pairing role with 2nd pairing AHL defender as his partner.

i have no doubt barrie will sort out the issues his currently having (as a PMD). i can't say the same of any of our LDs.

 

[InjuredChoker]

It's not all on the defenders though. How often when Avs try to break out does Avs have one winger standing still at the other blue line and one winger standing still at the near red line? How on earth are you supposed to create offense when most breakout options have Avs tip the puck deep without anyone coming with speed to get to the puck?

Look at how teams like Blues and Blackhawks, who have coaches that always focus on being good in transition have their forwards and the other defender support the guy with the puck.

or even red wings who don't have that skilled defenseman. they neutralized blues forecheck the other night pretty well.

 

[cgf]

agreed ......










..... it should have been realized well before last night's game

Seriously. It was obvious to me last spring...

I have to ask, is the first time some of you have watched a team get rebuilt from scratch through youth? This season is going as expected, albeit with a more disastrous start than should've been expected. A lot has gone wrong for us and still the kids are in the playoff picture, and that's what we needed out of this year. Next year the ROR situation will be resolved and we'll have had our best chance to sign an EJ partner, so we should be back to having a great season, but this year was always gunna be a struggle and the team has persevered so far. Just need to get hot and go on a run, most teams have a run in them where multiple key pieces get on a roll at the same time, most years. We haven't had ours yet, yet we're still where we are despite playing in a brutal division. This is another season with many positives for a team who will soon be one of the league's premier sides, but aren't there yet.

 

[Lord Moriarty007]

Mack and Dutch need stop trying to be cute with the puck. They mostly lose the puck because of most teams are playing the trap.

 

[tigervixxxen]

This is way too much like manic depression. On one hand there's all this hope (either they play a decent game or just pieces for the future) but on the other hand everything is terrible. It seriously takes my own mental strength to be a fan of this team. It's certainly not easy. There's so much to like but they just get trashed so much (media, fans).

 

[Pokecheque]

In the 10 game stretch where he did look great, he did a great job of drawing pressure to himself and then handing it off to Guenin, who had no pressure because Barrie drew the forecheckers to himself. Now he's just trying to do everything himself and get around everyone in the defensive zone and it's just not working.

And the reason for that is because the opposition knows they don't need to cover Guenin, because at best, he'll slowly skate it out of the zone or make a weak attempt to chip it up the boards. It's the same strategy Vancouver applied to Ryan O'Byrne back in the day. They went out of their way not to even touch O'Byrne when he had the puck but locked down all passing lanes. Completely and utterly stopped the Avs' attack and ability to break out of their own zone dead in its tracks.

Barrie is trying to do everything himself because his defensive partner has become a passive floater who only knows to hang around the net area and try to block shots. He isn't even trying to hit people anymore. Keep in mind since he's doing that he's also not covering the slot area, which leaves, yep, BARRIE to try and outmuscle the opposition there, or along the boards, or pretty much anywhere save for that small area down low where a guy is trying to pass it out of the corner or take a bad-angled shot. Guenin's got that covered.

The one and only time Guenin has ever truly been an effective d-man is when he was employing the Foote forearm shiver. Other than that he's been useless, and now that he's turned into a poor-man's Skrastins, he's worse than ever.

And yes, Barrie's play of late has been horrendous. Anyone's would be when it's clear his partner is nothing more than a liability on skates. It's eroding his confidence every shift and now he's just plain making bad decisions. He's also the only d-man with any sort of acceleration/speed, and the opposition knows that too. They don't have to bother trying to shut down anyone on that third pairing because it's amazingly easy to shut down a pairing with no speed or real offensive dynamic. Therefore, the opposition can just key in on two guys who are able to move the puck.

 

[cgf]

This is way too much like manic depression. On one hand there's all this hope (either they play a decent game or just pieces for the future) but on the other hand everything is terrible. It seriously takes my own mental strength to be a fan of this team. It's certainly not easy. There's so much to like but they just get trashed so much (media, fans).

We do have a pretty ****** fanbase, but compared to some of the other teams I follow it's not that bad...I am also a knicks fan...So even with how bipolar avs fans are and how poorly the town supports the club, it's still a breath of calm compared to those *******s.

That, and nothing will ever compare to jogi loew-apologists, you want to see some real absurdity, look at the backflips people are ready to jump through just because Loew finally managed to not screw up when the World Cup went perfectly for us.

 

[Foppa2118]

I really don't think it is either of theirs... they switched to this more generic system to try to stop the bleeding of the last system which was a Tourigny system. They went from an aggressive man coverage to a passive shot blocking zone to reduce the shots against. If Roy and Tourigny had their preferred personnel, I don't think this is the system they would implement.

I'm not so sure the man on man system came from Tourigny. When Roy talked about the man on man system, he said he had always used it as a coach, throughout junior, and thinks it's very effective. Maybe Tourigny used it too, but I got a sense of ownership on that idea when Roy talked about it. Even though I'm sure Tourigny played a huge role in implementing it.

 

[henchman21]

I'm not so sure the man on man system came from Tourigny. When Roy talked about the man on man system, he said he had always used it as a coach, throughout junior, and thinks it's very effective. Maybe Tourigny used it too, but I got a sense of ownership on that idea when Roy talked about it. Even though I'm sure Tourigny played a huge role with implementing it.

Tourigny ran that system for years in the Q and midget before Roy was even coaching. Roy used it when he took over coaching Quebec, heavily influenced by Tourigny's success.