GDT: Game 42: Stars @ Avalanche | January 10th, 1PM MT | Heartbreak awaits

[Avsboy]

I pinpointed the lack of scoring from the top 6 and their overratedness right away. Literally from game 2 on. I particularly focused on Landy and RoR. Right now those two are playing well, and the problem is Duchene and MacKinnon. The D has been acceptable, but I have lately talked about how more puck skills on the backend would translate to better sustained offensive pressure.

 

[Nihiliste]

I completely disagree with that. Did most people notice they weren't scoring, yes. But anyone that suggested the offense was losing games and not the defense was laughed at.

The truth is that both were losing us games. Regarding who posted what, this is very much a perception issue. If we were to sift through old GDTs I guarantee that there have been people taking both stances for much longer than just January. Roy himself was bringing it up earlier than that. We have too big a user base to buy into the hive mind narrative.

 

[Freudian]

I completely agree, though I do believe that he's better defensively than Barrie.

Barrie's positioning defensively is better than it was a couple of seasons ago, but he is beyond awful against the boards in the defensive zone. If I were the Avs opposition in the offensive zone, I would cycle the puck deep (if possible to Barrie's side of the ice) every single time.

Puck retrieval and being able to move the puck quickly is defense too and that's where Barrie/Elliott/Redmond shine.

I think Roy is a bit too much focused on the bumping and boxing out aspect of defense and not enough focused on puck retrieval and puck movement. So he keeps choosing low skill over high skill because the guys with high skill aren't as big and strong as the others.

Through the last five years, when Barrie and Elliott is on the ice Avs allow fewer shots on goal than when they have pretty much any other defender. Part of it is because they are somewhat sheltered. But part of the reason is that they help defuse those situations where the team get pinned in for 30 seconds allowing three four shots.

I think this blind spot in Roy is the reason he feels safer with Holden than Redmond on the ice despite it's very easy to prove Avs score more goals, allow fewer goals and allow fewer shots with Redmond on the ice.

 

[Nihiliste]

That overly loose attitude is gonna lead to very inconsistent hockey. It'll help you come back in games because you don't put any pressure on yourself, but it also lead to the pre-season and first month of the season where they played like they thought they deserved two points for just showing up.

You make some good points but at the end of the day I just don't agree that the moment in question is a necessarily a symptom of an overly loose attitude. We can speculate that the work ethic and focus haven't been what they should be based on results on the ice, but a light moment caught on camera could be spun to meet any number of narratives.

 

[ABasin]

Puck retrieval and being able to move the puck quickly is defense too and that's where Barrie/Elliott/Redmond shine.

I think this blind spot in Roy is the reason he feels safer with Holden than Redmond on the ice despite it's very easy to prove Avs score more goals, allow fewer goals and allow fewer shots with Redmond on the ice.

Agreed, Freudian. Though with Barrie, at times puck retrieval along the defensive boards is a blood-pressure-raising experience to watch. He certainly has the speed to get to a loose puck along the boards before an opposing forward. But when he doesn't get there first, it's not pretty.

No question Redmond should be playing over Holden.

 

[Foppa2118]

You make some good points but at the end of the day I just don't agree that the moment in question is a necessarily a symptom of an overly loose attitude. We can speculate that the work ethic and focus haven't been what they should be based on results on the ice, but a light moment caught on camera could be spun to meet any number of narratives.

That's fair and entirely true. And also to be fair, I think Roy kind of pushed this overly loose attitude during the intermission. I think he did it as a last resort kind of measure as a short term solution to their confidence problem though. I think he knows they can't always be that loose if they want to have seasons that are better and more consistent than this years.

 

[Pokecheque]

2003-04. Blake/Foote, 33/32 years old.

Yeah. I think you're right.

Did Liles and Leopold play on the same pairing? That was a legit top pairing if so. I remember when we acquired Leopold he looked good until getting injured. Iirc.

I don't think they did at even strength, and the window for Leopold actually playing well for the Avs was so freakin' small before he got hurt I don't even count it.

The closest to a "top pairing" the Avs have gotten in recent years was Hannan-Quincey and now Hejda-Johnson. That pretty much sums it up.

 

[RockLobster]

No, I think you just don't agree with me, and see a moment within a game as "out of context." You've also a couple times insinuated that I'm "defining players" with this. I am not. It's an attitude that I think has attributed to the the lack of focus and poor start on the season, but it's doesn't "define" anyone, it can be changed.

The Avs come back and win the game and you want to focus on one singular moment that happened as they were coming back from the first intermission...it certainly seems like you're hell bent on taking these players to task for something you're not sure is the reason for them smiling/laughing on the bench.

By "define" I am saying that you want to say that their respective heads weren't in the game (of which you do not know) just because of this.

It's such a nitpicky thing to do. Did they play like crap to start the game? I was at work so I can't say for 100% certainty, but from what I've read here it seems like it. Does that mean that they have to come to the bench with stone faces, showing no emotion or their heads aren't in the game? I wouldn't say that's the case.

So again--I think you're making this into a way bigger deal than it is, and you're really the only person beating this drum. (on this specific situation)

 

[Foppa2118]

The Avs come back and win the game and you want to focus on one singular moment that happened as they were coming back from the first intermission...it certainly seems like you're hell bent on taking these players to task for something you're not sure is the reason for them smiling/laughing on the bench.

By "define" I am saying that you want to say that their respective heads weren't in the game (of which you do not know) just because of this.

It's such a nitpicky thing to do. Did they play like crap to start the game? I was at work so I can't say for 100% certainty, but from what I've read here it seems like it. Does that mean that they have to come to the bench with stone faces, showing no emotion or their heads aren't in the game? I wouldn't say that's the case.

So again--I think you're making this into a way bigger deal than it is, and you're really the only person beating this drum. (on this specific situation)

No it was one part of a long post I made on the game that was singled out by you and others. You've turned that into me being "hell bent" on something because I'm sticking up for my viewpoint and explaining it. There's a reason they're not in the playoffs, and from season to season, and game to game have very inconsistent results, and I think their mental attitude and focus is one of the biggest reasons.

 

[Pokecheque]

I completely agree, though I do believe that he's better defensively than Barrie.

Barrie's positioning defensively is better than it was a couple of seasons ago, but he is beyond awful against the boards in the defensive zone. If I were the Avs opposition in the offensive zone, I would cycle the puck deep (if possible to Barrie's side of the ice) every single time.

I wouldn't go that far. Guenin is more physical, but for a big, physical guy he's hilariously bad at winning puck battles. He's probably better at it than Barrie, who generally can't win those due to his size. I'm not saying Barrie doesn't make bad mistakes in the d-zone, but even those bare minimum things you'd expect a guy like Guenin to be good at he's still pretty awful at on most days, average at very best.

 

[Nihiliste]

Puck retrieval and being able to move the puck quickly is defense too and that's where Barrie/Elliott/Redmond shine.

I think Roy is a bit too much focused on the bumping and boxing out aspect of defense and not enough focused on puck retrieval and puck movement. So he keeps choosing low skill over high skill because the guys with high skill aren't as big and strong as the others.

Through the last five years, when Barrie and Elliott is on the ice Avs allow fewer shots on goal than when they have pretty much any other defender. Part of it is because they are somewhat sheltered. But part of the reason is that they help defuse those situations where the team get pinned in for 30 seconds allowing three four shots.

I think this blind spot in Roy is the reason he feels safer with Holden than Redmond on the ice despite it's very easy to prove Avs score more goals, allow fewer goals and allow fewer shots with Redmond on the ice.

That's one area of Roy's approach to coaching that I feel is stuck in an older era. It goes beyond Roy though, in that puck movement from the back end has been our organization's biggest weakness since the summer that Sherman decided to ice a defense featuring O'byrne, O'brien, Zanon, et al. At some point I sincerely hope we'll be able to move beyond it since it's become incredibly tiresome to watch.

 

[Pokecheque]

That's one area of Roy's approach to coaching that I feel is stuck in an older era. It goes beyond Roy though, in that puck movement from the back end has been our organization's biggest weakness since the summer that Sherman decided to ice a defense featuring O'byrne, O'brien, Zanon, et al. At some point I sincerely hope we'll be able to move beyond it since it's become incredibly tiresome to watch.

Well, to be fair it's clear they value puckmovers. They wouldn't have immediately signed Andre Benoit and bought out Zanon if they thought the previous D was in any way adequate. But it's clear Roy, like so many others in the league, still overvalues size and physical play over speed and skill.

 

[frog]

you guys, was just thinking of our defence problems.. Hard to believe at one time this team had Foote, Blake, and Ray Bourque in the same year.


That would be like having Doughty, Weber and Chara on the same team now.

 

[5280]

I'm sorry, are we complaining about the timing of Iggy's smiles now?

 

[Taak19]

Lol^

I wonder where all those Varlamov vs. Bishop/Bob threads are that we saw all last year.

 

[Freudian]

Crosby on pace for 24 goals. Duchene on pace for 21 goals. MacKinnon on pace for 15 goals. Time to blame the true culprits. Andy O'Brien and short sticks.

 

[ASmileyFace]

Crosby on pace for 24 goals. Duchene on pace for 21 goals. MacKinnon on pace for 15 goals. Time to blame the true culprits. Andy O'Brien and short sticks.

You have to wonder... At least Crosby is still being Crosby in the assists column.

 

[Avsboy]

Mack is on the same pace as last season. He'll heat up.

 

[RockLobster]

Mack is on the same pace as last season. He'll heat up.

Not really wise to hope for MacKinnon to go on a tear like he did last year...his pace this year is far below what a player of his capabilities should have.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

You guys are being results oriented.

Nope. Just don't think this really matters much at all.

Exactly what's wrong with looking at the play on the ice though? They play like crap in the first. Then after this incident they are playing better, regardless of the score. If this attitude leads to worse play then you might have a point. But when the play on the ice gets better? How one connects the dots and claims it's bad is just baffling to me.

 

[shadow1]

you guys, was just thinking of our defence problems.. Hard to believe at one time this team had Foote, Blake, and Ray Bourque in the same year.


That would be like having Doughty, Weber and Chara on the same team now.

That was only one season though. The blue line has never been a strength for the Avalanche; always offense and goaltending.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

We've become accustomed to some pretty bad defensive play over the past few years to the point that guys like Holden/Guenin playing just well enough to not overtly lose games becomes an acceptable outcome. Players who fluctuate between being appallingly bad and merely subpar and needing to be sheltered absolutely deserve the criticism they incur. Protecting those players as much as we have to means that we can't use our offensive players in an ideal manner and that has an immense impact on the way the Avs play. The same goes for our 4th liners.

Isn't this all you can ask of from bottom pairing players?

The truth is that both were losing us games. Regarding who posted what, this is very much a perception issue. If we were to sift through old GDTs I guarantee that there have been people taking both stances for much longer than just January. Roy himself was bringing it up earlier than that. We have too big a user base to buy into the hive mind narrative.

They have not been losing us games recently. Guenin hasn't cost us too many goals since being paired with Barrie. I can't recall any that Holden has given up since coming back. Johnson and Hedja have been getting scored on quite a bit though. Why not complain about them instead of complaining about how well a couple guys were playing a month ago? It wasnt Guenin or Holden that put us in a 2-nothing hole last night. That was EJ.

As for the "too many minutes" comment earlier, Guenin is getting just 16 minutes a game, and less than 14 ES. Not too many guys get less than that. Holden is only at 18 a game, and his time fluctuates a lot based on how he is playing that day.

 

[Nihiliste]

Isn't this all you can ask of from bottom pairing players?



They have not been losing us games recently. Guenin hasn't cost us too many goals since being paired with Barrie. I can't recall any that Holden has given up since coming back. Johnson and Hedja have been getting scored on quite a bit though. Why not complain about them instead of complaining about how well a couple guys were playing a month ago? It wasnt Guenin or Holden that put us in a 2-nothing hole last night. That was EJ.

As for the "too many minutes" comment earlier, Guenin is getting just 16 minutes a game, and less than 14 ES. Not too many guys get less than that. Holden is only at 18 a game, and his time fluctuates a lot based on how he is playing that day.

This is pretty much exactly the attitude I was talking about. Look at how great teams employ their bottom pairings - sure they're sheltered, but not to the same extent that we need to shelter guys like Guenin/Holden or 4th liners like Mcleod and Cliche. It's different when you're sheltering offensive players because then you compensate for exposing yourself defensively by creating more opportunities during those minutes.

Guenin is a prototypical defensive dman, at the AHL level. In the NHL, it just means that our bottom pair gets outplayed by the other team's. Similarly, Mcleod and Cliche needing such a high number of offensive zone starts takes away from our ability to start Mackinnon and Duchene against weaker matchups in the offensive zone. This results in a tangible difference in Roy's tactical options and our play on the ice. It's not just about how many goals they're directly responsible for on a good night; forcing unfavorable matchups for our better players to protect AHL level guys harms the team. Guenin has been more acceptable since being paired with Barrie because now his minutes don't take away from our ability to shelter Tyson.

As for 16-18 minutes - I would argue that any minutes are too many for either player, on a good, healthy team.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Not really wise to hope for MacKinnon to go on a tear like he did last year...his pace this year is far below what a player of his capabilities should have.

He only went on a tear for a month. He finished the year pretty quiet before the playoffs. I'm not sure he'll get to 63 points again but I don't think he'll be that far off.

 

[Foppa2118]

Nope. Just don't think this really matters much at all.

Exactly what's wrong with looking at the play on the ice though? They play like crap in the first. Then after this incident they are playing better, regardless of the score. If this attitude leads to worse play then you might have a point. But when the play on the ice gets better? How one connects the dots and claims it's bad is just baffling to me.

Barrie and Iginla had terrible games from start to finish. The 4th and 3rd lines are what sparked the team halfway through the second. Before that most of their shifts consisted of playing in their own end, icing the puck, or going offsides.