Post-Game Talk: Game 41: CHICAGO 3-2 Pittsburgh (OT) | 2 - Panarin (13) Toews (14)

[SimpleJack]

If anything Panik will allow us to spread out our depth and improve that 4th line.

Panik-Toews-Hossa
Panarin-AA-Kane
Desjardins-Danault-TT
Shaw-Rasmussen-Garbutt

Come playoff time Rasmussen will be Kruger, and hopefully Panik will be someone else too unless he's randomly really good.

 

[Any Colour You Like]

^From what I heard he was at least decent in Toronto, so maybe there is hope.

 

[Paul Allen]

^From what I heard he was at least decent in Toronto, so maybe there is hope.

Stamkos claims Panik is the most skilled guy he's played with

 

[jls24]

For what it's worth I really liked Panik's upside in TB. I'm not expecting miracles but I'm excited to see what he can bring. Now's the time to experiment anyway.

 

[featherhawk]

Stamkos claims Panik is the most skilled guy he's played with

lets hope that is what the hawks scouting staff sees and that it can translate in the NHL....

who knows it could work out and that would negate Stan having to trade for a LW and he could upgrade the D

 

[DPHawk]

Ah, gotcha.

In that case I agree, but again, I don't think anybody Stan can or does bring in will be a magic elixir.

The 1st line will get going when Toews and Hossa elevate their play.

They need to play better but neither of them have carried a meh linemate the way Kane has done with guys like Versteeg, Richards, Bolland... Hossa and Toews have had great linemates since they've been here, and the past three seasons they've had a fixed LW while the rest of the team was in the blender. It's been the complete opposite this year so I don't know why you think their drop in play is unrelated.

And with all the success Kane has had with bad linemates and constantly changing combos, he's having a career year with playing with the same good players every night and was pretty lousy with Handzus.

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

We won. That's what matters to me. And nice to see Breadman do so well.

 

[featherhawk]

We won. That's what matters to me. And nice to see Breadman do so well.

he had his flaws as well particularly when he tried to dance around Malkin who got a great scoring chance....

but at least he seems to be getting the message Q keeps telling him......SHOOT

 

[featherhawk]

They need to play better but neither of them have carried a meh linemate the way Kane has done with guys like Versteeg, Richards, Bolland... Hossa and Toews have had great linemates since they've been here, and the past three seasons they've had a fixed LW while the rest of the team was in the blender. It's been the complete opposite this year so I don't know why you think their drop in play is unrelated.

And with all the success Kane has had with bad linemates and constantly changing combos, he's having a career year with playing with the same good players every night and was pretty lousy with Handzus.

well said, lets face it JT was never that gifted offensively, Hossa was at one point but those are many, many years in the past.....

JT and Hossa are not going to be able to carry dead weight but with the right match that person could spark the line big time.....

sounds to me that the brass think Panik may be the guy on the cheap.....if he fails I think stan makes a play for hudler

 

[BrianE]

For what it's worth I really liked Panik's upside in TB. I'm not expecting miracles but I'm excited to see what he can bring. Now's the time to experiment anyway.

Exactly, who knows maybe he can inherit "the switch"

 

[Geoist]

So we get the extra point in the phoney game again...

What does that even mean?

 

[Blue Liner]

well said, lets face it JT was never that gifted offensively, Hossa was at one point but those are many, many years in the past.....

JT and Hossa are not going to be able to carry dead weight but with the right match that person could spark the line big time.....

sounds to me that the brass think Panik may be the guy on the cheap.....if he fails I think stan makes a play for hudler

JT was never that gifted offensively...as in, Jonathan Toews? Jonathan Toews was never that gifted offensively? I'm reading this correctly?

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

^From what I heard he was at least decent in Toronto, so maybe there is hope.

Obi Wan Panik

 

[hawksfan50]

Yes we won..but if that is all that matters rather than how we played and whether our stars shone as well as their stars did on the eyeball test ,then it is a win with a lot of smoke and mirrors disguising serious problems...sometimes both the score oars and the stats lie...take the 2 assists and +2 night for Seabrook. ..did you ever see such pylon and cement skating ? He was awful in defending did g in our own end...putrid in fact...he was lucky on his 2 assists...but the stats make him look good on paper...the eyeball test says he flat out stunk tonight..Toews credited with a goal and 4 shots...you would think a great night for him (he was admittedly great in the dot at 63%) BUT goal off his body into the net was luck ...shots did nothing g not dangerous scoring g threat most shifts.... Crosby only 2 shots on goal but scored on 1 of them. .but had 4 shots that missed tge net all dangerous scoring threats...eyeball test say he played great ...could have had a Hatty with luck...but he did not get any luck...his goal was deserved though ..it was a great shot. So tge stats can mismatch to the eyeball test...a kindergarten can see who was starring who was effort g and who was just lucky...We will take tge smoke and mirrors win ..but really we want our core guts to all 6play better Than this exhibition of "show" from them...too many Not earning their
Paychecks tonight
Yes take the 2 points and be grateful..but certainly ly not happy at how several key ayers performed for us.

But compare to Florida ..10 wins in a row...dominating win tonight by big score differential...Geezer Jagr and tge 2 kid stars line doing it again...meanwhile our geezer Hossa looms like he will never get another NHL goal and line #1 as a line still looks like garbage and Zero threat to anyone...so yes...take another smoke and mirrors win but really there are big problem so resolve here for some players and tge team as a whole. ..I hope we see a lot better tomorrow night back at the UC..I pray the attendees who.laid down good m9ney are treated to a much better effort and earning of their Paychecks than we saw from the Indianhead tonight..You can bet PITT will desire revenge for tge liss tonight and will show up to justify their 0ay level again..Hopefully this game our guys do too.

 

[JaegerDice]

They need to play better but neither of them have carried a meh linemate the way Kane has done with guys like Versteeg, Richards, Bolland... Hossa and Toews have had great linemates since they've been here, and the past three seasons they've had a fixed LW while the rest of the team was in the blender. It's been the complete opposite this year so I don't know why you think their drop in play is unrelated.

And with all the success Kane has had with bad linemates and constantly changing combos, he's having a career year with playing with the same good players every night and was pretty lousy with Handzus.

Well, that's not totally true. Certainly not for Toews.

Yes, he's had some great linemates. Since 2007, the guys he's played most with 5v5 have been in order:

Kane (3504 minutes)
Hossa (2763 minutes)
Sharp (2635 minutes)
Saad (1303 minutes)



But then you think about the rest of the guys he's been stuck playing with at various points in his career, and still been a possession superhuman as well as a consistent high-end (albeit not elite) producer:


Troy Brouwer (1021 minutes)
Kris Versteeg (914 minutes)
Viktor Stalberg (692 minutes)
Dustin Byfuglien (563 minutes)
Bryan Bickell (318 minutes)
Martin Havlat (253 minutes)
Andrew Ladd (248 minutes)
Tuomo Ruutu (247 minutes)
Andrew Brunette (200 minutes)
Tomas Kopecky (160 minutes)
Michael Frolik (137 minutes)

The list goes on, all the way to Brandon ****ing Bollig.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=649&withagainst=true&season=2007-15&sit=5v5

And pretty much every single guy on that list saw not only significant, but stratospheric gains in both their production per 60 minutes and their possession numbers when they were with Toews vs without.



Let's put this in perspective. So far this season, Toews has a CF% of 52% and a GF/60 of 1.69.

...In 2012 Jonathan Toews dragged the gradually cooling corpse of Andrew Brunette to a 55.6 CF% and a GF/60 of 2.10.

Nobody Stan could find on the market for the 1LW slot could be worse than 2012 Andrew Brunette. Nobody that has played on Toews' wing this season is worse than 2012 Andrew Brunette. But Toews was better with Andrew Brunette in 2012 than he is this year.

Why? Because the issue is with Toews. The LW is a convenient excuse. If Toews was playing up to the standards of Toews we know, the possession super-human that drives play like few in the NHL, then this '1LW problem' doesn't exist. Because the 1st line would be producing at a good rate with anybody, from Tikhonov, to Dano, to Garbutt, to Bickell, to Micheal ****ing Rozsival dressed as a forward. But he's not playing at that level. I don't know why. I don't think it will last forever. Frankly, I think he's been quietly improving.

Obviously bringing a good, useful player into the lineup will make the team better. But anybody who thinks the LW is why Toews is struggling has got the equation backwards. Whoever is put on that LW will struggle, because Toews is struggling. And when he and Hossa come out of it, whichever interchangable part is lucky enough to have been assigned to the 1LW slot at that time will get a whole bunch of undeserved accolades for 'fixing' the issue.

 

[Esq]

I am really impressed with Danault. Unfortunately one problem is solved, and another created. Our 4th line is still awful.

 

[featherhawk]

JT was never that gifted offensively...as in, Jonathan Toews? Jonathan Toews was never that gifted offensively? I'm reading this correctly?

yes JT was never that gifted offensively compared to Kane......as was discussed in the post I responded too....

JT and Hossa can't carry dead weight like Kane can.....

that is not a secret and it is clear as day

 

[featherhawk]

I am really impressed with Danault. Unfortunately one problem is solved, and another created. Our 4th line is still awful.

if the Panik kid works out with the second line.....

we could see a 4th line of

Garbutt-Shaw-Hartman

and I want to see that.......

 

[bwana63]

if the Panik kid works out with the second line.....

we could see a 4th line of

Garbutt-Shaw-Hartman

and I want to see that.......

Shaw at center? Just say no.

 

[bwana63]

yes JT was never that gifted offensively compared to Kane......as was discussed in the post I responded too....

JT and Hossa can't carry dead weight like Kane can.....

that is not a secret and it is clear as day

Compared to Kane isn't what you said in your original post. You said Toews was never gifted offensively. A pretty severe misstatement.

 

[DPHawk]

Well, that's not totally true. Certainly not for Toews.

Yes, he's had some great linemates. Since 2007, the guys he's played most with 5v5 have been in order:

Kane (3504 minutes)
Hossa (2763 minutes)
Sharp (2635 minutes)
Saad (1303 minutes)



But then you think about the rest of the guys he's been stuck playing with at various points in his career, and still been a possession superhuman as well as a consistent high-end (albeit not elite) producer:


Troy Brouwer (1021 minutes)
Kris Versteeg (914 minutes)
Viktor Stalberg (692 minutes)
Dustin Byfuglien (563 minutes)
Bryan Bickell (318 minutes)
Martin Havlat (253 minutes)
Andrew Ladd (248 minutes)
Tuomo Ruutu (247 minutes)
Andrew Brunette (200 minutes)
Tomas Kopecky (160 minutes)
Michael Frolik (137 minutes)

The list goes on, all the way to Brandon ****ing Bollig.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=649&withagainst=true&season=2007-15&sit=5v5

And pretty much every single guy on that list saw not only significant, but stratospheric gains in both their production per 60 minutes and their possession numbers when they were with Toews vs without.



Let's put this in perspective. So far this season, Toews has a CF% of 52% and a GF/60 of 1.69.

...In 2012 Jonathan Toews dragged the gradually cooling corpse of Andrew Brunette to a 55.6 CF% and a GF/60 of 2.10.

Nobody Stan could find on the market for the 1LW slot could be worse than 2012 Andrew Brunette. Nobody that has played on Toews' wing this season is worse than 2012 Andrew Brunette. But Toews was better with Andrew Brunette in 2012 than he is this year.

Why? Because the issue is with Toews. The LW is a convenient excuse. If Toews was playing up to the standards of Toews we know, the possession super-human that drives play like few in the NHL, then this '1LW problem' doesn't exist. Because the 1st line would be producing at a good rate with anybody, from Tikhonov, to Dano, to Garbutt, to Bickell, to Micheal ****ing Rozsival dressed as a forward. But he's not playing at that level. I don't know why. I don't think it will last forever. Frankly, I think he's been quietly improving.

Obviously bringing a good, useful player into the lineup will make the team better. But anybody who thinks the LW is why Toews is struggling has got the equation backwards. Whoever is put on that LW will struggle, because Toews is struggling. And when he and Hossa come out of it, whichever interchangable part is lucky enough to have been assigned to the 1LW slot at that time will get a whole bunch of undeserved accolades for 'fixing' the issue.

Toews was terrible with Brunette, that 2.10 GF/60 is way below his career average (3.27) and their GF% a disaster as well. Also they only spent 200 minutes together which made Brunette his 4th most common forward pair that year and only equals about 15 games.

As far as the other guys you listed, everybody below Bickell got the equivalent of less than 20 games with Toews, and Brouwer and Buff are legit top 6 forwards so they aren't relevant (though his GF/60 drops with them too).

Here's the GF/60 of the remaining garbage linemates Toews actually spent time with

Versteeg 2.56
Stalberg 3.21
Bickell 2.45

Only Stalberg comes close to Toews career mark and they did that while getting 68 OZone% and giving up a lot more GA than Toews is used to.

Bottom line is that yes, Toews+Hossa need to be better and eventually will be better but I doubt the first line is going to be dominant the way it needs to be without a competent top 6 wing, even if the big dogs find their game.

 

[Longwayfromhome]

Liking what I'm seeing of Danault so far. Really solid. I prefer him over Rasmussen.

Gustafson looked really out of place tonight. Overmatched the minutes he got on the second pairing. Hopefully he grows in to it.

 

[JaegerDice]

Toews was terrible with Brunette, that 2.10 GF/60 is way below his career average (3.27) and their GF% a disaster as well. Also they only spent 200 minutes together which made Brunette his 4th most common forward pair that year and only equals about 15 games.

As far as the other guys you listed, everybody below Bickell got the equivalent of less than 20 games with Toews, and Brouwer and Buff are legit top 6 forwards so they aren't relevant (though his GF/60 drops with them too).

Here's the GF/60 of the remaining garbage linemates Toews actually spent time with

Versteeg 2.56
Stalberg 3.21
Bickell 2.45

Only Stalberg comes close to Toews career mark and they did that while getting 68 OZone% and giving up a lot more GA than Toews is used to.

Bottom line is that yes, Toews+Hossa need to be better and eventually will be better but I doubt the first line is going to be dominant the way it needs to be without a competent top 6 wing, even if the big dogs find their game.

Yes, Toews numbers go down when he's with weaker linemates than a Hossa, Sharp, Kane or Saad, but he's still always elevating those players to at least decent numbers.

His numbers with X player may not as always been as good as his numbers away from them, but X player are almost always significantly worse away from Toews than with him. He elevated them, and usually the jump in their play was larger than the hit he took from carrying them (though obviously, questioning why he was stuck playing with some of these guys in the first place wouldn't have been out of the question). Right now he's not playing at a level to make anybody better, even at the expense of whatever production he might have with a hypothetical superior option.

Hence the Brunette example, which I picked simply because Brunette is the worst forward I can remember playing for the Blackhawks in recent memory. Yes, 2.10 GF/60 is way down from his own averages, as is the CF% of 55.6. But BOTH are higher than the numbers he's putting up this season. So again I ask, are ANY of the players he's had on his LW worse than Andrew Brunette was in 2012?

I'd say the answer is no, which tells me that Toews is the issue, because if he could drag the decomposing body of Brunette to 55 CF%, he would sure as hell be able to drag any of the guys he's had on his LW this year to better than the 52% and 1.69 or so he's currently sporting on the year.

But yes, you are right that if you want a DOMINANT first line, like league-leading possession sledgehammer first line the Hawks have had since 2013, then you need a great LW, and frankly the Blackhawks have neither the cap space nor the assets to acquire one IMO, they'll have to draft one or develop one of the ones they have in the system.

Honestly, the Blackhawks are 4th in the league with a pretty mediocre 1st line thus far. I think if we even get that line up to 'strong' rather than 'dominant', most would be thrilled.

I don't think our positions on the matter are that different, I think we're just slightly separated along the spectrum of how much responsibility Toews bears for improving the performance of the top line, vs how responsibility the LW position bears.

Which is fine.

Maybe I'm just hopeful, because I think there's a better chance of Toews snapping out of this funk and going into '**** you' mode than an amazing LW walking through the door.

 

[BobbyJet]

A wins a win.

Exactly. The negativity around here is ridiculous. This season was always going to be about our goaltending until the new players found their way, and Crawford has risen to the occasion when called upon. One softie last night at a bad time but CC made up for it earlier in RT and was at his best in OT. Hopefully Darling can follow suit tonight.

PS ... despite the inconsistencies Hawks are within reach of first place in the division... and we all know they can play much better and I think they will (when it counts most).

 

[Enyaw]

Any update on Toews? He left the ice in OT for what looked like a shot to the face