GDT: Game 3: Avs vs Bruins | October 14, 2015 | 8 PM MT

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tigervixxxen

Optimism=Delusional
Jul 7, 2013
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Were they though? I wonder about that. They were a cap-floor team tanking it, so if they were a dumpster fire, they were a stinky, smoky mess on purpose. That said, I agree that this ain't the finished product...but I sure wish they were looking better than they are right now. I can't tell if the coaches just don't know the right system to utilize with this roster, or if the players aren't buying in, or a combination of the two.

And yes, it doesn't help when the high-priced goalie is having an atrocious start to the season.

The 2008-09 team that was near the cap and still tanked it, now THAT team was a dumpster fire.

It was still the same org, same issues. A couple more pieces but that's it. I fully believe this org was headed to a Colorado Rockies level of organizational toxicity and futility before Sakic came in. He hasn't been perfect, the results haven't been great thus far but at least they are trying something.
 

tigervixxxen

Optimism=Delusional
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The problem is not use of personnel with Roy, I hate to keep saying this but I'm surprised people still puzzled about what the problem is.

The problem is system. Whenever Roy is asked what king of system he's running, he always says we want to be a fast offensive team, and all he has his team doing is trying to get the puck in their zone and go on quick strike offense.

There is no set defense, or any kind of breakout system. It's get the puck and just go fast on offense, that's why there is poor possession and a lot of turnovers with this team.

Most successful teams play with, be patient and responsible in the d zone and the offense will come and they are detailed in the d zone. Avs don't have any attention to detail in the d zone, that's why they always get out shot and run around in their zone.

All they care about is quickly get the puck and go on quick strike, that's a game they play in beer leagues, and that may have worked for Roy in junior hockey but this is NHL, they need to have more structure in the d zone or they won't be a winning team anytime soon

Edit: With that system Roy is running, they can bring Keith, Doughty, Weber and they'll still be running around in the d zone and still won't have any breakouts.

I can agree there's an issue with the system they run or try to run but it's not true that they operate no system whatsoever. I'm not a systems expect but I can even tell that.
 

IndustryLeech

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Jan 23, 2013
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It's three games into the season. There are reasons to be worried for sure, but the sky isn't falling...yet. If we're still losing half of our games going into December I think there may be reason to do something drastic.
 

FreshFitted67

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It was still the same org, same issues. A couple more pieces but that's it. I fully believe this org was headed to a Colorado Rockies level of organizational toxicity and futility before Sakic came in. He hasn't been perfect, the results haven't been great thus far but at least they are trying something.

Agreed. I might have stayed away from some of the high-priced long term vet contracts. But beyond that, Sakic has done a fantastic job as GM. Especially the O'Reilly deal.
 

the_fan

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I can agree there's an issue with the system they run or try to run but it's not true that they operate no system whatsoever. I'm not a systems expect but I can even tell that.

I didn't say they don't have a system whatsoever, it's just not a system suitable for the NHL, whatever it is worked in juniors for Roy, he thinks he can make it work in the NHL.

It is an unstable system, one that might work for one game, if you're playing a team like Dallas who don't have good defense, but it won't work the next game if you're playing a good defensive team.

It's just an inconsistent system. Being fast and offensive is one thing, but not having attention to detail in the d zone will always cost you games.
 

StayAtHomeAv

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May 20, 2014
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Hate to say it... but THIS.

Right there with you guys.

Good hockey starts with good Dzone play. I get that they want an exciting brand of hockey, but there is nothing more exciting than winning. A few weeks ago Roy said they put a big emphasis on offense in practice. They really need to change that strategy around, or go to a very simple zone. Right now guys seem clueless as to what they should be doing once a play breaks down. That first goal last night was a perfect example. Why in the hell were there 4 guys over on the left side after the initial 2on1 shot, 2 of which curled to the corner where there were no opponents (Rantanen top left, Zadorov followed puck, Iggy and Yeti to corner). That left Rantanen to cover both point men, which is obviously not possible. And Beauch had 2 guys down low towards the net which did not allow him to step up to cover the backside pointman. Iggy and Yeti have to read that situation better. One of those guys have got to stay disciplined and stay in a position to cover the opposite side of the ice.
 

StayAtHomeAv

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May 20, 2014
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3 goals down it is not about scoring anymore its about not giving freebies. A brain dead monkey could see that they were coming back it that game.

Who cares about a freebie? We were going to lose the game anyways.

You gotta try to win still.
 

Metallo

NWOBHM forever \m/
Feb 14, 2010
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It's funny the way people still see it that way (not saying just here). With the three lottery draws is really going to shake stuff up. I'd really only say in the running for a top 5 pick is all any team can guarantee. Someone from 10-15 is going to win one of those lottery spots.

This org was a dumpster fire two years ago, we forget that. From top to bottom a complete disaster. We had a few nice pieces but that doesn't mean much. It's about managing expectations. Yeah it sucks that the team will probably be out of it again by November but either they are building the right way or they aren't. I'm willing to wait and see the finished product.

As I said I don't think it's that they don't want to be an embarrassment or they can't get up for the games. It's that they are playing scared. It's what happened last year. The pressure and expectations are sky high, one mistake keeps ending up in their net. At least they can score this year so at least that's not a mental burden but add on whatever Varly is doing and we are just in the same spot. He didn't have a great preseason, he was giving up early goals then too. He can't stop everything but every goalie needs to make a couple big saves.

Why would they play scared?

There is no expectations. Everyone sees them finishing at the bottom.
There is no pressure. The media in Denver is all but absent regarding hockey and the players can go about their day in relative anonymity compared to some other markets.
They have a player's coach that as shown patience and understanding.

No reason to play scared.
 

Metallo

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Feb 14, 2010
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Who cares about a freebie? We were going to lose the game anyways.

You gotta try to win still.

No no no, not down by 3 without a sign of life.

Giving empty netters like candy might be the difference between an opponent top player getting out of a scoring slump and going on a tear and leading its team to even more points in the standing.

Its also humiliating as a fan to see these goals against pile up and other fan bases dumping on us because we got creamed again.
 

tigervixxxen

Optimism=Delusional
Jul 7, 2013
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Why would they play scared?

There is no expectations. Everyone sees them finishing at the bottom.
There is no pressure. The media in Denver is all but absent regarding hockey and the players can go about their day in relative anonymity compared to some other markets.
They have a player's coach that as shown patience and understanding.

No reason to play scared.

Standing on the precipice of irrelevance? Would athletes rather be hated or forgotten? The pressure of the glory years literally hanging over them as they play every game. Knowing that if they don't make a deep playoff run nobody in this town will give a crap about them? Sure it's easier going to the grocery store or not having 15 reporters in your face but is that's what's important? They want to win too, every day they hear about how they can't afford to fall behind, they saw it last year. There are expectations, Roy said he's not here to miss the playoffs, they had a taste of it the year before. This isn't some expansion franchise or a team that just sold off all their stars. There's plenty to be scared of.
 

freeboy

Registered User
Feb 27, 2012
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AND
in agreement with TV its a new to each other team,
I dont think any sport supasses Hockey in the need to jell and form a team aspect... this affect comes to those who need help the most.. ie Barrie etc...
So once we iron out the flow of the team... I expect these games of meltdown porportioned will be fewer .....
Lets all hope so... this was such a crash and burn after the big Dallas win
 

henchman21

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Playing under Roy would probably be a frightening proposition on its own. :laugh:

Duchene being out would suck... hopefully it sounds worse than it really is.
 

StayAtHomeAv

Registered User
May 20, 2014
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No no no, not down by 3 without a sign of life.

Giving empty netters like candy might be the difference between an opponent top player getting out of a scoring slump and going on a tear and leading its team to even more points in the standing.

Its also humiliating as a fan to see these goals against pile up and other fan bases dumping on us because we got creamed again.

Nobody is dumping on us because an empty netter makes it a 4 point game.

you know what's even more humiliating, giving up before the game is over and not trying everything in your power to win, no matter how impossible.

So, let's say that does get a star going (I highly doubt it- nobody is going to gain confidence from an empty netter). Why wouldn't this idea work in our favor? What if Duchene was able to score? Would that not possibly get him going (much more likely imo than the opposite)?
 

Ensane

EL GUAPO
Mar 2, 2002
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Let's be clear. The Bruins the Avs faced last night is not a good team by any definition. On top of the depleted roster, Chara is returning from injury, Marchant is out, and Rask got the night off. With all this in mind, the Avs should be ashamed. Part of the problem is personnel (ie - I've always questioned the ability of a few mainstay, like Duchene's, to bounce back consistently and players in certain roles can always be upgraded), but more so I believe it has to do with the system.

The whole point of having a system is to fall back on muscle memory when emotions take hold. The problem I can see is that Roy seems content relying on the high octane talent of the forwards alone. I'm sure he has some sort of structure in place (right?!?) which the team practices, but whatever is in place not enough. You need guys to know exactly where to be in all situations. Players like Holden and Stuart can be serviceable in their roles, even in this era, but without a system you're left relying on their own creativity and skill (which they both lack) to move the puck out of the zone. If you know with near 100% certainty where your forwards and partner will be when you have one stride with the puck, you can easily look up, choose the proper option, and boom, the puck is going the other way. That's really what separates the elite defensemen in the league from the guys that seem to have some great years and then toil when the go to a lesser team (Stuart is a great example here, in fact). Defensemen like Doughty and Keith more often than not can make the proper decision without thinking and can thrive in any situation with or without a system, but indeed they really flourish with the additional structure. So yeah, in a certain sense, a personnel change viz. swapping someone like Guenin for Subban will fix some of these problems, but implementing a system is a cheaper and easier way to go. Nashville has been a model example of how you can get more out of less using this method for the past decade.

What really stood out last night was the mental fragility of the team. After the Bruins scored the first goal, the team completely just sunk and never recovered. Some games, the team will get "lucky" and respond with a quick goal, other games, the more time that go on after the deflating goal, the less likely the team is to bounce back. A system that the players could buy into would do wonders for their confidence. "Alright...we gave one up, but if we stick to what we've worked on all training camp/year, then we'll create some chances and be back in this thing." Instead, last night you saw a bunch of professionals acting like it was the Sunday morning pick-up game, essentially working as individuals and not a team.

No the sky isn't falling, but unless these issues are stamped out you'll see games here and there where the team will look competitive (eg. the game vs. Dallas), but more often games like last night's will be the norm. The main concern is that the players and coaches might be patting themselves (and whatever system they're using) on the back too much for the wins, without realizing that the underlying deficiencies could have easily reversed the outcome.
 

Ensane

EL GUAPO
Mar 2, 2002
15,746
69
Right there with you guys.

Good hockey starts with good Dzone play. I get that they want an exciting brand of hockey, but there is nothing more exciting than winning.
Moreover, there's kinda this false dichotomy floating around that suggests that having a good defensive structure can't exist with an exciting offense. If the defense is pinned in much less, the forwards are more likely to break out and have more chances the other way.

I mean, I'm not the smartest guy, but I think that in a sport where there's two teams, when one doesn't have possession, the other one should.
 

AvsRobin

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Aug 10, 2010
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Were they though? I wonder about that. They were a cap-floor team tanking it, so if they were a dumpster fire, they were a stinky, smoky mess on purpose. That said, I agree that this ain't the finished product...but I sure wish they were looking better than they are right now. I can't tell if the coaches just don't know the right system to utilize with this roster, or if the players aren't buying in, or a combination of the two.

And yes, it doesn't help when the high-priced goalie is having an atrocious start to the season.

The 2008-09 team that was near the cap and still tanked it, now THAT team was a dumpster fire.
I don't think they were.

This was a dream to take over. Great young core of O'Reilly, Duchene, Landeskog, Barrie, Johnson, Varlamov.

No lengthy contracts handcuffing the organization, close to cap floor. Low expectations after finishing 29th the shortened year.

1st overall pick waiting to be used, have your choice of C MacKinnon, winger Drouin or defenseman Jones.

And a 26 year old Paul Stastny with 1 year left on his contract waiting to be either extend or traded for whatever the new management felt was lacking.

I don't buy at all that Roy and Sakic took over a total mess. They took over after a perfectly executed re-build IMO. But I know some disagree and that's fine.
 

the_fan

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Right there with you guys.

Good hockey starts with good Dzone play. I get that they want an exciting brand of hockey, but there is nothing more exciting than winning. A few weeks ago Roy said they put a big emphasis on offense in practice. They really need to change that strategy around, or go to a very simple zone. Right now guys seem clueless as to what they should be doing once a play breaks down. That first goal last night was a perfect example. Why in the hell were there 4 guys over on the left side after the initial 2on1 shot, 2 of which curled to the corner where there were no opponents (Rantanen top left, Zadorov followed puck, Iggy and Yeti to corner). That left Rantanen to cover both point men, which is obviously not possible. And Beauch had 2 guys down low towards the net which did not allow him to step up to cover the backside pointman. Iggy and Yeti have to read that situation better. One of those guys have got to stay disciplined and stay in a position to cover the opposite side of the ice.

I wish I met Roy in person. He always says he wants the team to play exciting hockey for the fans, I'd tell him exactly what you said. Nothing is more exciting for me as a fan than winning games. Even if you play a trapping defensive style which will win games, I'll be very happy Mr. Roy
 

tigervixxxen

Optimism=Delusional
Jul 7, 2013
53,061
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Denver
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It wasn't a mess from the standpoint of having to clean up disaster contracts but a mess in that they wasted a decade by doing nothing, living off the glory years after glow, having no plan and leadership, terrible culture. I know some of you don't follow baseball but they were quickly becoming the Colorado Rockies. They have a couple MVP type pieces and nothing else, it doesn't mean anything.
 
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