GDT: Game 28: Red Wings at Blues 7:30 pm EST 12/12/23 (ESPN)

[CanadaIsIrrelevant]

Please stop being BAD… mkay?

Updating roster when more information is available.

Let’s GO Red Wings!

Make Z and Kronner happy

EXPECTED STARTING LINEUPS

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[JediOrderPizza]

Sunny reunion day.

 

[Winged Wheel Willy]

We are bleeding goals against and nothing on the Edvinsson front. Stevie said in the summer that quality of play would determine the lineup. We were duped, hoodwinked, bamboozled and lead astray.

 

[RED WINGS STOMP]

Please win.

 

[Gniwder]

Blues have lost 3 games in a row, against LGVK, CBJ, and CHI. Their leading scorer is a slow skater, and they're allowing a lot of shots on goal.

It's a winnable game even with Copp as 1C.

 

[The Flying Octopus]

Blues have lost 3 games in a row, against LGVK, CBJ, and CHI. Their leading scorer is a slow skater, and they're allowing a lot of shots on goal.

It's a winnable game even with Copp as 1C.

Stop w the Copp hate. Him and JT are needed on the PK and they do the right things. They don’t need Copp to score. We have Raymond , Cat , Kane, etc…

People don’t understand that Copp is a very useful player in situations most aren’t aware of. Hockey IQ, learn it.

 

[Gniwder]

Stop w the Copp hate. Him and JT are needed on the PK and they do the right things. They don’t need Copp to score. We have Raymond , Cat , Kane, etc…

People don’t understand that Copp is a very useful player in situations most aren’t aware of. Hockey IQ, learn it.

Dude, Copp is an overpaid 3C. If he got paid like a 3C, nobody would be complaining.

But back to my point, the team is missing the top 2 centers, my comment wasn't even meant as Copp hate. Any team would have trouble winning with the 3C playing top line. Copp and Joey are NOT on the same page as Kane and Cat. Those 2 guys don't play the typical cycle game, sending the puck around the board winds up being a turnover.

Edit: Ironically, the problem with Copp is lack of hockey IQ, lol.

 

[raymond23]

We finally turn the corner and then our captain gets knocked unconscious and our 2c gets injured

So f***ing frustrating

Let's get a W tonight boys. That would be awesome

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Complete simple passes when you have time. Catch good passes when you're open. Make that extra effort to get to your blueline and clear the puck. Make the saves and NHL goalie should routinely make. Don't get cute with plays in your own end, or at all really.

And for the love of god TAKE THE SHOT!

 

[Oddbob]

Stop w the Copp hate. Him and JT are needed on the PK and they do the right things. They don’t need Copp to score. We have Raymond , Cat , Kane, etc…

People don’t understand that Copp is a very useful player in situations most aren’t aware of. Hockey IQ, learn it.

For 5.25 we absolutely need him to get 40-50 pts while being good in his own end. You don't get 5.25 to be a decent PK guy which is what Copp is and provide little offence. He isn't some selke level guy here, he is simply a good PK guy and terrible at offence. This season he makes Helm look like a sniper. His 2 PS this season were 2 of the worst breakaways I have ever seen.

Complete simple passes when you have time. Catch good passes when you're open. Make that extra effort to get to your blueline and clear the puck. Make the saves and NHL goalie should routinely make. Don't get cute with plays in your own end, or at all really.

And for the love of god TAKE THE SHOT!

Don't forget the key is playing Petry the exact same amount as Seider, as Seider can't handle more minutes than Petry or else we will implode.

 

[jaster]

Ironically, the problem with Copp is lack of hockey IQ, lol.

Copp has above average hockey IQ. It's why he's trusted by coaches in a variety of roles, at any forward position, and with almost any defensive assignment. He's almost always in the right position. His hockey IQ is one of his best traits. It's his lack of speed and offensive ability that keep him from being a true top-6 center.

 

[Gniwder]

Copp has above average hockey IQ. It's why he's trusted by coaches in a variety of roles, at any forward position, and with almost any defensive assignment. He's almost always in the right position. His hockey IQ is one of his best traits. It's his lack of speed and offensive ability that keep him from being a true top-6 center.

I meant offensive IQ, and he has almost none. Defensively, he's ok. Ideally he's 3C. Quite frankly, I think your sudden support for Copp is just to troll me, lol. Helm was good defensively, nobody ever accused him of having high hockey IQ. Speaking of coach's trust, Helm has 2 cup rings with 2 different teams while playing center.

A guy that likes to cycle the puck around the boards isn't gonna mesh with Ray, DBC, or Kane. That forces them into a game that doesn't suit their build or their overall game. Those 3 are going to lose more board battles than they win. I've already watched Joey and Copp try to cycle the puck with DBC/Kane, and unless they're cycling back to the D on the same side, it's automatically a turnover. DBC and Kane are looking to pass to the 3rd forward in a give and go fashion, they're not expecting to head to the boards to battle for a puck. It simply doesn't work.

I lost count, but most of Copp's assists are from cycling the puck back to Seider. That's not hockey IQ bud.

Also, hockey IQ or not, he seems to be having issues getting his stick on the puck on both ends of the ice. His failure to clear the puck cost the team a goal last game. He needs to fix that.

 

[jaster]

I meant offensive IQ, and he has almost none. Defensively, he's ok. Ideally he's 3C. Quite frankly, I think your sudden support for Copp is just to troll me, lol. Helm was good defensively, nobody ever accused him of having high hockey IQ. Speaking of coach's trust, Helm has 2 cup rings with 2 different teams while playing center.

A guy that likes to cycle the puck around the boards isn't gonna mesh with Ray, DBC, or Kane. That forces them into a game that doesn't suit their build or their overall game. Those 3 are going to lose more board battles than they win. I've already watched Joey and Copp try to cycle the puck with DBC/Kane, and unless they're cycling back to the D on the same side, it's automatically a turnover. DBC and Kane are looking to pass to the 3rd forward in a give and go fashion, they're not expecting to head to the boards to battle for a puck. It simply doesn't work.

I lost count, but most of Copp's assists are from cycling the puck back to Seider. That's not hockey IQ bud.

Also, hockey IQ or not, he seems to be having issues getting his stick on the puck on both ends of the ice. His failure to clear the puck cost the team a goal last game. He needs to fix that.

We may be splitting hairs, but I don't think his offensive IQ is that bad. The points he does get are more often due to IQ than his physical tools (which are largely the things that keep him from being consistent offensively). He can find soft spots on the ice if he plans far enough ahead lol. That's hockey IQ, bud!

Not trolling you, I swear. But be prepared to feel trolled even more now lol.... I was always of the position that Helm was really not good defensively. In fact, he frustrated me more often than not with his decision-making, especially in his younger years. His speed gave him a leg up on the PK, and to a lesser extent at ES, but his defensive IQ was bad otherwise. I appreciated him for his compete, speed, and his industrious style of play, but his defensive/shutdown abilities were more myth than reality. Defensively, I'd compare Copp to Glendening (high hockey IQ) before I'd compare him to Helm.

But make no mistake, I'm not saying Copp should be playing with our best offensive players. Of course not. I agree he's best as a 3C. I think he's perfect in that role. Which yes, makes him overpaid, which may be a problem down the line. But for now it doesn't matter much, we have the cap space and we need him to for that role and for center depth in general.

 

[Gniwder]

Don't forget the key is playing Petry the exact same amount as Seider, as Seider can't handle more minutes than Petry or else we will implode.

I think the issues is that Seider's partner has been sucking ass. Walman got 16:50 ice time, Matta 15:30. Petry's 20:38 is more a reflection of Chiarot getting 19:50 as the best LHD on the team. (I puked in my mouth a little when I typed that.)

We may be splitting hairs, but I don't think his offensive IQ is that bad. The points he does get are more often due to IQ than his physical tools (which are largely the things that keep him from being consistent offensively). He can find soft spots on the ice if he plans far enough ahead lol. That's hockey IQ, bud!

He has one legit goal where he beat the goalie, a deflection, one EN, and 2 rebounds he dunked home. His assists are mostly cycling the puck back to the defenseman. His soft spot on the ice is just the half wall on the cycle so he can pass back to the D. I really don't see any hockey IQ, it's typical bottom 6 strategy. I'm comparing to the average NHLer, not your average beer leaguer. I don't see anything with Copp that's above average as far as hockey IQ.

Now if we compare him to Bowey, yeah Copp is a hockey genius.

 

[RedHawkDown]

We may be splitting hairs, but I don't think his offensive IQ is that bad. The points he does get are more often due to IQ than his physical tools (which are largely the things that keep him from being consistent offensively). He can find soft spots on the ice if he plans far enough ahead lol. That's hockey IQ, bud!

Not trolling you, I swear. But be prepared to feel trolled even more now lol.... I was always of the position that Helm was really not good defensively. In fact, he frustrated me more often than not with his decision-making, especially in his younger years. His speed gave him a leg up on the PK, and to a lesser extent at ES, but his defensive IQ was bad otherwise. I appreciated him for his compete, speed, and his industrious style of play, but his defensive/shutdown abilities were more myth than reality. Defensively, I'd compare Copp to Glendening (high hockey IQ) before I'd compare him to Helm.

But make no mistake, I'm not saying Copp should be playing with our best offensive players. Of course not. I agree he's best as a 3C. I think he's perfect in that role. Which yes, makes him overpaid, which may be a problem down the line. But for now it doesn't matter much, we have the cap space and we need him to for that role and for center depth in general.

I'd disagree here. I don't think Copp is any less skilled than Compher, but he has much lower offensive IQ. He has zero creativity, and his only moves are dumping and chasing the puck or cycling it back to the defenseman. Plays die on his stick in the offensive zone because he doesn't know what to do with the puck to create a scoring chance. It's not like he's trying passes and they're not connecting, trying to make plays that are floundering because he's not good enough. He just does the most basic thing in every situation. He has no offensive IQ; I would argue he gets by entirely on his physical tools - size/strength/compete level that allows him to score some points through sheer will, kind of like Abdelkader/Cleary et al.

 

[jaster]

He has one legit goal where he beat the goalie, a deflection, one EN, and 2 rebounds he dunked home. His assists are mostly cycling the puck back to the defenseman. His soft spot on the ice is just the half wall on the cycle so he can pass back to the D. I really don't see any hockey IQ, it's typical bottom 6 strategy. I'm comparing to the average NHLer, not your average beer leaguer. I don't see anything with Copp that's above average as far as hockey IQ.

Now if we compare him to Bowey, yeah Copp is a hockey genius.

He doesn't luck into all his points, especially given who he plays with most of the time and the fact that his assigment is generally to shut the opponent down. I'm saying that the points that aren't "luck" are more often due to his decision-making than they are to amazing hands or blazing speed, which he does not possess. He's good at being in the right position. That's how you get deflections and backdoor dunks.

The problem with Copp is not a lack of hockey IQ. It's that he gets paid like that of a 2nd-line center with actual offensive ability, whereas he has very little of that.

 

[dj4aces]

Let's get Kane his first win as a Red Wing tonight.. please?

 

[jaster]

I'd disagree here. I don't think Copp is any less skilled than Compher, but he has much lower offensive IQ. He has zero creativity, and his only moves are dumping and chasing the puck or cycling it back to the defenseman. Plays die on his stick in the offensive zone because he doesn't know what to do with the puck to create a scoring chance. It's not like he's trying passes and they're not connecting, trying to make plays that are floundering because he's not good enough. He just does the most basic thing in every situation. He has no offensive IQ; I would argue he gets by entirely on his physical tools - size/strength/compete level that allows him to score some points through sheer will, kind of like Abdelkader/Cleary et al.

To be clear, I don't think his offensive IQ is good. In fact, I'd describe it as below average. But there is a little there, I don't think it's a rock bottom, 1st percentile trait for him. What you're describing above isn't all lack of offensive IQ. He dumps and chases because he's a slow skater (and it's often what he's assigned to do), he gets closed on quickly in the offensive zone for the same reason, he has a hard time distributing the puck because his hands and stickhandling really aren't that good. He just doesn't have very good offensive tools, and that's his main problem when it comes to offense.

Now I think you make a good point about his physical tools and getting offense through sheer will. That does happen. But what makes him so good defensively is what lends a little bit to his point totals on the offensive end; he's good positionally at least.

To me the biggest difference between Copp and Compher is the skating. Compher's skating buys him more time with the puck and the ability to be more patient. It opens up options that Copp doesn't usually see. I think he's also a better puckhandler in general. Beyond that, there isn't much that separates them offensively, including IQ, imo.

 

[Gniwder]

He doesn't luck into all his points, especially given who he plays with most of the time and the fact that his assigment is generally to shut the opponent down. I'm saying that the points that aren't "luck" are more often due to his decision-making than they are to amazing hands or blazing speed, which he does not possess. He's good at being in the right position. That's how you get deflections and backdoor dunks.

The problem with Copp is not a lack of hockey IQ. It's that he gets paid like that of a 2nd-line center with actual offensive ability, whereas he has very little of that.

To me that's just hockey fundamentals, Helm was always in the right spots, he'd just whiff on the puck. (Remember when Helm was on the PP?) Even Zadina was getting it towards the end, but with Helm results. Copp actually has good puck reflexes, though last few games he's flubbing at the puck like Zadina.

He doesn't have the vision to make even the simplest passes, even when he has time and space. I was glad to see him off the PP and demoted to 3C until the recent injuries. Plays just die on his stick. That's what I'm talking about when I say hockey IQ. To me, hockey IQ includes the the ability to process the game fast enough to make passes which Copp can't do.

If Copp is gonna succeed with DBC/Kane, he's gonna have to figure out how to get the puck back to them instead of going around the boards. Watch for it today. We'll see how much hockey IQ he actually has.

Regardless I want him to have a good game because the team needs a win. I hope he scores a goal even if Kane needs to bank it off his ass.

 

[WingsToPick4th]

Copp is atrocious offensively and not even that good at a checking role.

Every play with Kane and debrincat died on his stick. Honestly Id move him to 4C because he only provides average defence and PK. He is slow, doesn't hit, loses every single defensive faceoff on the penalty kill and has the wrist shot of a 12 year old - the guy blows.

ZAR also looked worse than a beer leaguer.

tonight, I would tho these lines for the top 9

Cat - Ras - Kane
Berggren - Veleno - Raymond
Fabbri - Copp - Sprong

 

[jaster]

To me that's just hockey fundamentals, Helm was always in the right spots, he'd just whiff on the puck. (Remember when Helm was on the PP?) Even Zadina was getting it towards the end, but with Helm results. Copp actually has good puck reflexes, though last few games he's flubbing at the puck like Zadina.

He doesn't have the vision to make even the simplest passes, even when he has time and space. I was glad to see him off the PP and demoted to 3C until the recent injuries. Plays just die on his stick. That's what I'm talking about when I say hockey IQ. To me, hockey IQ includes the the ability to process the game fast enough to make passes which Copp can't do.

If Copp is gonna succeed with DBC/Kane, he's gonna have to figure out how to get the puck back to them instead of going around the boards. Watch for it today. We'll see how much hockey IQ he actually has.

Regardless I want him to have a good game because the team needs a win. I hope he scores a goal even if Kane needs to bank it off his ass.

Like I said, I think we're splitting hairs and agree here more than disagree. Copp's offensive hockey IQ is well below that of Kane and Debrincat. Injuries aside, he really has no business centering those guys. I'm glad Compher has so far worked out as a 2C, because Copp is, simply, a good 3C and a bad 2C.

 

[Gniwder]

Copp is atrocious offensively and not even that good at a checking role.

Every play with Kane and debrincat died on his stick. Honestly Id move him to 4C because he only provides average defence and PK. He is slow, doesn't hit, loses every single defensive faceoff on the penalty kill and has the wrist shot of a 12 year old - the guy blows.

ZAR also looked worse than a beer leaguer.

tonight, I would tho these lines for the top 9

Cat - Ras - Kane
Berggren - Veleno - Raymond
Fabbri - Copp - Sprong

Raz has worse hockey IQ than Copp. I'd only consider that lineup only because it creates a better matchup for the other 2 lines.

Copp is, simply, a good 3C and a bad 2C.

Well at least we came to the same conclusion, lol.

 

[19 for president]

Raz has worse hockey IQ than Copp. I'd only consider that lineup only because it creates a better matchup for the other 2 lines.



Well at least we came to the same conclusion, lol.

I don't disagree with the Raz take but he at least has moments where he can shoot and drive the net. I think Kane and DBC could at least us him sorta like Dats did Abby lol. Copp just kills everything he touches offensively. If Ras remembers how to use his legs to stay upright and skate he has ok offensive moments, because at least physical tools give him an advantage.

 

[Realgud]

Copp has a very good defensive iq imo, but his offensive iq is really poor. No one with a high hockey iq would turn the puck as often as he does in the offensive zone. That's why he's a great bottom-6 center and looks lost whenever he's centering a top-6 line.

 

[Henkka]

We finally turn the corner and then our captain gets knocked unconscious and our 2c gets injured

So f***ing frustrating

It's 82-game season. I'm pretty calm now, because Kane looks so damn good. And after we get over of these late crazy tweaks, sooner or later, this team will be a killer.