GDT: Game 27: Coyotes @ Oilers - 7PM - FSAZ+

[Jakey53]

Then it completely makes sense to bench Duclair in favour of Cousins, Kempe, etc. We are after all a playoff team in the playoffs and nothing matters but tonight's game.

You know my feelings about Kempe and Cousins, but I believe it's not about who is better but maybe they are trying to develop Duclair into a better all around player and sometimes you need to show some tough love. Duclair needs to play better away from the puck, but he has improved there, in my eyes anyway. Look, I think Duclair should be playing more than he has, but there must be something we are not seeing.

 

[Neighborhood Coyote]

You can throw out the regular season stats as they mean squat. Playoffs are a totally different game, and I include the goalies when talking D. I haven't looked it up but I bet both Fleury and Murray had a better sv% in the playoffs vs regular season. Teams play much different come playoff time. My opinion of course, so I do respect your view.

Well, I use them as a factor because it's still the same team playing in the playoffs that made that regular season record. Also... they NEED that regular season record to make the playoffs. At this point, I would be fine with the Yotes just getting their regular season in order so we could even complain about playoff performance lol (prolly too late for this season). I do agree that it's a different game in the playoffs and all of that, though. But I also still don't think its a surprise because good teams are just going to be good usually. (Plus getting hot at the right time does wonders!)

2 coaches are scratching him even though he has production. There must be a reason. I think it is his play away from the puck. Fans aren't smarter than both coaches and don't have all the information either.

I've thought about this quote a bit. It's been said several times by different people. It makes me wonder... it could be that there IS a reason we don't know. But what if there isn't? What if there is only the reason they said like "doesn't try hard enough all of the time" or "needs to be more sticky"? To be fair to Tip, he didn't scratch him so often when he was producing that first year... when he wasn't producing that's when it happened. But Tocchet is doing it even when he's one of the better producers on the team. It's weird.

There is also the possibility that 2 different head coaches are wrong or have some kind of bias against the kid. Just on different wavelengths even. It's not impossible both of them are/were screwing up. We don't have any evidence that RT knows what he is doing as a head coach so far that we can point at and say "Yea well he's being scratched but we are winning".

I also just bring this up because it might be really unfair to Duke to assume he must be a bad person or something just because of the decisions of 2 coaches that haven't even said that was the reason either, ya know? If both coaches said "oh he has attitude problems and he's a locker room cancer" then I would be much more wary on that front. But, by all accounts, Duclair has had a good attitude throughout the deal that I've heard of.

I definitely agree that we don't have as much info as they do. But I am the type that prefers to try and keep my judgments of what's happening within the data I do actually know. Because once I venture past that, anything could be possible. And when anything is possible, there are a lot of wrong answers down that road.

The fact that the comment exists though does point to the craziness of Duclair being scratched so often, though! Because, on the ice, it appears he's at least earned enough to play some more. Other players have definitely earned a scratch and haven't gotten one... so I also start getting that feeling that it doesn't add up. It's nuts.

Sorry, long post... just my own thought on that idea that there must be something going on. Because I've been debating myself about that for a while lol.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

There is also the possibility that 2 different head coaches are wrong or have some kind of bias against the kid.

There is one possibility that I haven't wanted to even consider because it is so absolutely abhorrent. I would like to think that the very idea would be laughable to even contemplate in this day and age.

 

[Neighborhood Coyote]

There is one possibility that I haven't wanted to even consider because it is so absolutely abhorrent. I would like to think that the very idea would be laughable to even contemplate in this day and age.

Yea, that's one of those areas where I spoke of when "anything is possible" when I stray from what data I actually know to be true or not. When we venture away from what we know, the possibilities are endless and they can be pretty crappy too. SO that is a perfect example of why I don't like to say maybe something is wrong with Duke or etc because that road goes both ways and its always unfair.

At this point all I say is that it's a decision I don't think is smart to scratch him like this. Some times he may deserve it but man, this team needs goals to be scored and offensive pressure because you can't spend all game in the d zone and expect to win. Besides, other players have earned the scratch too... so let's see it.

 

[Ebb]

At this point, I'm guessing Duclair would be fine with being waived/traded to an AHL team (unaffiliated with the Coyotes). Anything to escape this train wreck of a team/season. I'm almost to the point of being fine with a Domi & Duclair package trade for a scoring forward

 

[Lilhoody]

There is one possibility that I haven't wanted to even consider because it is so absolutely abhorrent. I would like to think that the very idea would be laughable to even contemplate in this day and age.

I hear that's not the case. Though his issue maybe after-hours related.

 

[cobra427]

Well, I use them as a factor because it's still the same team playing in the playoffs that made that regular season record. Also... they NEED that regular season record to make the playoffs. At this point, I would be fine with the Yotes just getting their regular season in order so we could even complain about playoff performance lol (prolly too late for this season). I do agree that it's a different game in the playoffs and all of that, though. But I also still don't think its a surprise because good teams are just going to be good usually. (Plus getting hot at the right time does wonders!)



I've thought about this quote a bit. It's been said several times by different people. It makes me wonder... it could be that there IS a reason we don't know. But what if there isn't? What if there is only the reason they said like "doesn't try hard enough all of the time" or "needs to be more sticky"? To be fair to Tip, he didn't scratch him so often when he was producing that first year... when he wasn't producing that's when it happened. But Tocchet is doing it even when he's one of the better producers on the team. It's weird.

There is also the possibility that 2 different head coaches are wrong or have some kind of bias against the kid. Just on different wavelengths even. It's not impossible both of them are/were screwing up. We don't have any evidence that RT knows what he is doing as a head coach so far that we can point at and say "Yea well he's being scratched but we are winning".

I also just bring this up because it might be really unfair to Duke to assume he must be a bad person or something just because of the decisions of 2 coaches that haven't even said that was the reason either, ya know? If both coaches said "oh he has attitude problems and he's a locker room cancer" then I would be much more wary on that front. But, by all accounts, Duclair has had a good attitude throughout the deal that I've heard of.

I definitely agree that we don't have as much info as they do. But I am the type that prefers to try and keep my judgments of what's happening within the data I do actually know. Because once I venture past that, anything could be possible. And when anything is possible, there are a lot of wrong answers down that road.

The fact that the comment exists though does point to the craziness of Duclair being scratched so often, though! Because, on the ice, it appears he's at least earned enough to play some more. Other players have definitely earned a scratch and haven't gotten one... so I also start getting that feeling that it doesn't add up. It's nuts.

Sorry, long post... just my own thought on that idea that there must be something going on. Because I've been debating myself about that for a while lol.

I hadn't thought about the fact that Tip did keep him in the line up when he was producing while Tocc does not. For me, if you strictly watch Duke when he doesn't have the puck or we aren't on the rush entering the O zone, he is our worst forward. Duke might have been cherry picking a little to get a few of his goals too. He might not be making the turnover that instantly leads to a goal but many other little things that hurt the team. If it were off ice or attitude issues, I suspect Chayka would have traded him by now. Duke had a recent hat trick so something is really wrong.

True Tocc isn't proven as a head coach but he really hasn't made many player TOI decisions that appear much different from Tip last year, Duke being just one of them.

 

[Neighborhood Coyote]

I hadn't thought about the fact that Tip did keep him in the line up when he was producing while Tocc does not. For me, if you strictly watch Duke when he doesn't have the puck or we aren't on the rush entering the O zone, he is our worst forward. Duke might have been cherry picking a little to get a few of his goals too. He might not be making the turnover that instantly leads to a goal but many other little things that hurt the team. If it were off ice or attitude issues, I suspect Chayka would have traded him by now. Duke had a recent hat trick so something is really wrong.

True Tocc isn't proven as a head coach but he really hasn't made many player TOI decisions that appear much different from Tip last year, Duke being just one of them.

Yes that's true about that last part, but those decisions led to the team getting dismantled and for the team to look for a huge change in focus on how they play. So, it's just baffling to me that the organization would try to move away from Tip but then be ok with another coach doing the same things. I just don't personally understand it lol.

Idk, when I've watched Duke without the puck it hasn't seemed that bad to me. I've also seen him make some nice defensive plays here and there. I'm sure he could be more consistent... and he def has room for improvement. However, that could be said about the whole team and the fact it's just him getting scratched over and over when he's also the one who DOES score goals is weird to me. However, maybe I am biased because I want to see him succeed and I already feel like he's being singled out a bit.

 

[rt]

There is one possibility that I haven't wanted to even consider because it is so absolutely abhorrent. I would like to think that the very idea would be laughable to even contemplate in this day and age.

I've been dreading the day somebody suggests it and opens that can of worms. Let's please slide that right back on the shelf and swiftly walk away from it. Please.

 

[cobra427]

Yes that's true about that last part, but those decisions led to the team getting dismantled and for the team to look for a huge change in focus on how they play. So, it's just baffling to me that the organization would try to move away from Tip but then be ok with another coach doing the same things. I just don't personally understand it lol.

Idk, when I've watched Duke without the puck it hasn't seemed that bad to me. I've also seen him make some nice defensive plays here and there. I'm sure he could be more consistent... and he def has room for improvement. However, that could be said about the whole team and the fact it's just him getting scratched over and over when he's also the one who DOES score goals is weird to me. However, maybe I am biased because I want to see him succeed and I already feel like he's being singled out a bit.

The organization wanted to move away from Tip's style of play and Tocc sold them down the road as to how Pitt was playing (Fast). If you talk to or know any experienced NHL coach or player, they all say the same thing, the NHL is a game of mistakes. Tocc knows this and has had to adjust, it looks like to me anyway, his style a little to limit mistakes. The players that make less mistakes get the minutes, even though they don't have great production (Reider/martinook/Richardson/even Rinaldo. I'm pulling for Duke but you have to be a complete player at this level and you can't have major flaws or play hard part of the time even if you get a hattie while cherry picking (a little). Tip is clearly a better coach at this point then Tocc, but Tocc isn't stupid either.

 

[Neighborhood Coyote]

The organization wanted to move away from Tip's style of play and Tocc sold them down the road as to how Pitt was playing (Fast). If you talk to or know any experienced NHL coach or player, they all say the same thing, the NHL is a game of mistakes. Tocc knows this and has had to adjust, it looks like to me anyway, his style a little to limit mistakes. The players that make less mistakes get the minutes, even though they don't have great production (Reider/martinook/Richardson/even Rinaldo. I'm pulling for Duke but you have to be a complete player at this level and you can't have major flaws or play hard part of the time even if you get a hattie while cherry picking (a little). Tip is clearly a better coach at this point then Tocc, but Tocc isn't stupid either.

While I agree with the general set that more mistakes=bad. For me, it's more along the lines of... if player A scores 2 goals but makes 5 mistakes which lead to 1 goal against vs player B who doesn't score a goal and makes just 2 mistakes which lead to 1 goal against.. I go with player A because the goal output outweighs goals allowed. Obviously, there are differences in types of mistakes and severity etc etc... but I just personally lean towards that idea that if a player can outscore his mistakes, he's alright. Granted, that doesn't happen super often and I don't like players to make mistakes, period. So, as long winded as I am... I agree that the goal should be to not make mistakes and also convert on chances/create them.

Either way though, I think we can all agree that against Calgary, with Duke out of the line up... this team made a ton of mistakes and also didn't have the offensive output to cover it up at all. In fact, I think the fact they had such little offensive help made the defense worse. It's harder to play mistake free defense when you have to play defense for almost the entire game in your zone. Just opening yourself up to way more possibility to fail. The Yotes pretty much had the worst of both scenarios. No offense AND a mistake filled game. At least that's how I saw it.