GDT: Game 21: Coyotes @ Sharks - 8PM - FSAZ

[AZviaNJ]

There is nothing wrong with dump and chase, but you can't tell the know it all crowd that. If you have speed the dump and chase can work very well. A good example was when Duclair tried to dippsey doddle around Burns and lost the puck and the play went the other way. With Duke's speed he should have dumped it in and go after the puck. If he couldn't get it, at least the puck was deep and you can fight for a turn over.

Duclair needs to simplify his game, less dippsey doodle, more shoot the puck. 3-4 times every game he's either trying to skate around/thru 2 guys and/or attempting to thread a pass through multiple defenders....which often leads to turnovers and odd man rushes.

Just shoot the puck Duke!!

 

[AZviaNJ]

This may be an unpopular comment, but the team is moving in the right direction. While October was awful (6 game east coast roadie to start the season can do that), the Coyotes finished 6-4-3 in November and points in 6 of our last 7 games (3-1-3).

 

[Plub]

Not always. Once upon a time, they could put on a defensive clinic while playing counter-attack hockey. Not "collapse in our own zone and let the other team dunk on us all day" hockey.



I had no problem with Tippett when he was effective and delivering results

Let's take a stroll..

Arizona (14-) vs Phoenix(09-14)
P% - 30th vs 11th
Shots For - 27th vs 12th
PK - 30th vs 17th
GA - 30th vs 8th

So a supposedly great defensive coach has been responsible for the worst defense in the league the past three seasons, as well as the worst team by points percentage. Their current scoring rate would be the worst in the league if you compared it to the 09-14 Phoenix era. This team is doing nothing and going nowhere on the ice.

Since the name switch, 15 teams above the Coyotes in terms of points percentage have made a coaching change. Fifteen. Capuano, Desjardins, Peters, and Maurice are in danger of being fired this year.

I think the Coyotes can survive a change.

Outshot 42-19.

Sharks' F/O % was 59% - ours was 41%.

The only stat we beat San Jose in was in hits (by two).

But I guess all dem fancy stats an' numbers is fer looooooooosers.



"Why the death of the dump and chase is imminent" - http://www.thescore.com/news/496440

"The (slow) death of dump-and-chase hockey?" - http://www.getsportiq.com/2013/11/the-slow-death-of-dump-and-chase-hockey/

"The dump and chase is the worst play in hockey." - Scotty Bowman



Yes, on this we agree.

Guys, your inarguable statistics are just ignorant. Those numbers don't know the game. They don't have the vast knowledge of some random self appointed know it all on HFboards.

You want to really prove your point, just say stuff and then insult anyone who says otherwise. That's how you show you really know hockey. Get these statistics and quotes of far better hockey minds than Dave Tippet out of my face!

 

[BUX7PHX]

Got home later and didn't get a chance to do what I had said I would about tracking data on dump and chases.

Maybe it was just this game, but the first 3 dump and chase opportunities that we had actually didn't reflect poorly. We forced a TO in SJ defensive end by being able to set up the forecheck. Also created a neutral zone turnover when SJ turned with the puck. The last dump and chase was your typical 50/50 board battle that we did not get anything out of.

There's dump and chase with a purpose and dump and chase without a purpose. If we are getting a line change, or the puck got held up at the blue line and we have to dump it in while one of our players is in a delayed offside, that is dump and chase with a purpose. I think that people need to take their blinders off and ask themselves if the dump and chase in that moment is performed as part of a general offensive strategy (didn't happen as often as one would think last night, based on user comments), or if there were other factors (line changes, delayed offsides where we have limited puck options) that come into play.

 

[BUX7PHX]

This may be an unpopular comment, but the team is moving in the right direction. While October was awful (6 game east coast roadie to start the season can do that), the Coyotes finished 6-4-3 in November and points in 6 of our last 7 games (3-1-3).

I agree - we didn't look as bad as the shot metrics or scoring metrics appeared to look last night. Duke had at least three opportunities where he created space, but got stripped of puck before he was able to pass or shoot. Dvorak and McGinn picked up lose pucks and would send them between the circles, we just didn't have anyone in range to capitalize. We also hit the post/crossbar 3 or 4 times on three separate shots (none of them OEL). Our PP moved the puck pretty effectively, too.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Duclair needs to simplify his game, less dippsey doodle, more shoot the puck. 3-4 times every game he's either trying to skate around/thru 2 guys and/or attempting to thread a pass through multiple defenders....which often leads to turnovers and odd man rushes.

Just shoot the puck Duke!!

Duclair is shooting the puck. The trouble is his scoring percentage is a lousy 4%. This just might be nature correcting itself from his absurdly high scoring percentage last year.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

With this team, right now, dump and chase works. In a year or so with more experience, and talent, you will see us carry the puck more instead of the dump and chase.

First of all, the dump-and-chase is not working all that well for this team. The puck gets into the offensive zone, but most of the time by the time our players get there, it's already controlled by the opposition. If it truly worked, our record would be a lot different than it is... and has been for several years now.

Second of all, I very much doubt I'll suddenly see a more offensive strategy from Tippett. The long and short of it is that Dave Tippett and Jim Playfair have never once shown any inclination to abandon or curtail the dump-and-chase or a heavily defensive system at the NHL level. Newell Brown is the only coach on the staff who dared experiment with a possession game, but he has been relegated to the power play and has no influence on overall strategy.

Tippett believes in conservative hockey. Every NHL team he's coached has played this way. When he's had a hot goaltender or veteran defensemen who have made a mediocre goaltender look hot, he's looked like a genius. When that hasn't happened, the system is exposed and his teams struggle.

I am not on the "Fire Tippett!" bandwagon because it is a fool's errand. Tippett holds all the power in hockey ops and the tenderfoot owners we have have bought completely into Tipworld. We are stuck with him and his systems for the long haul, and when he goes he'll put his pal Playfair in charge, so there is no relief in sight unless somehow Chayka can put aside his fancy stats to the extent that he finds the elusive roster alchemy that makes Tippett's broken clock tell the proper time.

This may be an unpopular comment, but the team is moving in the right direction. While October was awful (6 game east coast roadie to start the season can do that), the Coyotes finished 6-4-3 in November and points in 6 of our last 7 games (3-1-3).

I don't see why that would be unpopular. We've had an improved stretch of performance lately and it's a relief after the absolute misery of the start of the season. The uncertainty lies in whether this team can sustain it.

 

[Grimes]

First time ever I fell asleep during a game. Wasn't worth watching.

 

[MIGs Dog]

This may be an unpopular comment, but the team is moving in the right direction. While October was awful (6 game east coast roadie to start the season can do that), the Coyotes finished 6-4-3 in November and points in 6 of our last 7 games (3-1-3).

I'm with you brother. The future is bright.

 

[Tom Polakis]

Maybe it was just this game, but the first 3 dump and chase opportunities that we had actually didn't reflect poorly. We forced a TO in SJ defensive end by being able to set up the forecheck. Also created a neutral zone turnover when SJ turned with the puck. The last dump and chase was your typical 50/50 board battle that we did not get anything out of.

That's how I remember them. And for now, the unfortunate reality is that's all this team has against opponents like the Sharks. What's the alternative for zone entry when a representative line has the not-so-soft hands of Doan, Rieder, and Martinook entering the zone? The Sharks don't have to resort to this lowest common denominator play because they have top lines with skilled guys who have played together like Pavelski, Marleau, Thornton, Couture, etc.


(This post is free of sophomoric sarcasm and references to other posters as know-it-alls.)

 

[strizzy16]

This may be an unpopular comment, but the team is moving in the right direction. While October was awful (6 game east coast roadie to start the season can do that), the Coyotes finished 6-4-3 in November and points in 6 of our last 7 games (3-1-3).

Thank you! Everyone is so doom-and-gloom and negativity around here. Team is improving. Smith is playing great. We've gotten 5 out of the last 6 possible points against good teams. Dvorak is looking better and less tentative. And look at the average age of this team! Be happy!

 

[kihekah19*]

Maybe it was just this game, but the first 3 dump and chase opportunities that we had actually didn't reflect poorly. We forced a TO in SJ defensive end by being able to set up the forecheck. Also created a neutral zone turnover when SJ turned with the puck. The last dump and chase was your typical 50/50 board battle that we did not get anything out of.

That's because they worked hard early - hustle.

 

[kihekah19*]

Thank you! Everyone is so doom-and-gloom and negativity around here. Team is improving. Smith is playing great. We've gotten 5 out of the last 6 possible points against good teams. Dvorak is looking better and less tentative. And look at the average age of this team! Be happy!

Not everyone, just those with either a lack of understanding, or the impatient.

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

Not everyone, just those with either a lack of understanding, or the impatient.

Evidence?

 

[BUX7PHX]

That's how I remember them. And for now, the unfortunate reality is that's all this team has against opponents like the Sharks. What's the alternative for zone entry when a representative line has the not-so-soft hands of Doan, Rieder, and Martinook entering the zone? The Sharks don't have to resort to this lowest common denominator play because they have top lines with skilled guys who have played together like Pavelski, Marleau, Thornton, Couture, etc.


(This post is free of sophomoric sarcasm and references to other posters as know-it-alls.)

Well, I wish I would have tracked all of these and the time they took place. I don't recall the team successively going dump and chase over and over again as if that was our only zone entry option. There were a few times when we skated the puck in or made a nice pass to allow a skater to take the puck in.

Kind of goes back to my statement on dumping and chasing with a purpose or a plan. If the plan is for a line change, that is an example of a dump and chase with purpose - the purpose of getting fresh bodies out on the ice, and if we do a good job of getting the puck deep, it allows us to set up a forecheck or trap. There were a few times when our forecheck did an excellent job of forcing turnovers.

If we are dumping and chasing consistently with fresh players on the ice and with some sort of advantage in the rush (adequate space or an additional player vs the opposition), then yes, I can understand why people would get frustrated from the dump and chase tactic, b/c that is being done without a purpose. The team has some sort of advantage, yet the player elected to dump and chase.

And yes, the Sharks also resort to dump and chase - again, it depends on whether there was a specific purpose behind it or not. I stray toward the specific purpose of dump and chase as being the following:

1. Line change
2. Delayed offside (we are forced to dump in b/c we established possession outside of blue line, but another player still has not exited the zone and we do not have a reasonable outlet to maintain possession)
3. Numbers disadvantage to pin other team deep and set up forecheck

Number 3 is somewhat variable, b/c we, as fans, may not be privy to information regarding why we specifically chose to dump and chase. Maybe there are specific defensemen or lines that we make a more active effort to dump and chase against, and it is part of the offensive gameplan. I doubt that it is our sole offensive gameplan, but I also doubt that we would never use it in an uncalled for scenario. How many times we do so when it may be uncalled for is what comes into question.

 

[CC96]

"Why the death of the dump and chase is imminent" - http://www.thescore.com/news/496440

"The (slow) death of dump-and-chase hockey?" - http://www.getsportiq.com/2013/11/the-slow-death-of-dump-and-chase-hockey/

"The dump and chase is the worst play in hockey." - Scotty Bowman



Yes, on this we agree.

Oh yeah, and how many NHL games did Scotty Bowman ever play? That's right. Zero.

I'll take my opinions from someone, who actually played the game at the highest level, thank you very much. Someone like Tip.

 

[Jakey53]

Evidence?

Read the posts.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Oh yeah, and how many NHL games did Scotty Bowman ever play? That's right. Zero.

In fairness, Bowman said this while coaching the Montreal Canadiens in the 1970s, so the talent gap he had over the rest of the league except maybe the Islanders was enormous.

The thing is that the dump-and-chase is never going to go away, no matter how other systems might flourish or how analytics might affect the game. It could have gone away after the Soviets revolutionized the game in the 70s and 80s, but it didn't - because the NHL community is like a self-perpetuating machine of conservatism. There isn't room for any forward thinking or invention because everyone is playing for their jobs, and by the time players get to the NHL level they are so indoctrinated in system play that they carry it with them when they transition out of playing and into coaching.

I find it illuminating to go back occasionally and read Ken Dryden's The Game because these same things were debated 40 years ago when he wrote it, and while writing it he researched and discovered that many of the same debates took place 40 years before he played the game. The NHL, its coaches, and its players are fixed like mosquitos in amber when it comes to finding new ways for the game to evolve.

 

[kihekah19*]

I don't think DT is implementing a dump and chase game as a sole strategy boys. I've said it so many times, it's getting tiresome, but dump and chase is implemented based off player decisions, what they read and what they feel is the best reaction. DT and his staff are not telling us they want more offensive zone time in some nefarious effort to fool us, while they tell the boys on the ice the opposite.

Having said that it can and I believe always will be utilized as a re-set for when play may be getting stale and an infusion of energy may be warranted, as well as early in games to loosen defensive gaps. A team would need to have some absurd amount of talent to be able to eliminate it, not only altogether, but in the situations I just described as well.

 

[kihekah19*]

In fairness, Bowman said this while coaching the Montreal Canadiens in the 1970s, so the talent gap he had over the rest of the league except maybe the Islanders was enormous.

The thing is that the dump-and-chase is never going to go away, no matter how other systems might flourish or how analytics might affect the game. It could have gone away after the Soviets revolutionized the game in the 70s and 80s, but it didn't - because the NHL community is like a self-perpetuating machine of conservatism. There isn't room for any forward thinking or invention because everyone is playing for their jobs, and by the time players get to the NHL level they are so indoctrinated in system play that they carry it with them when they transition out of playing and into coaching.

I find it illuminating to go back occasionally and read Ken Dryden's The Game because these same things were debated 40 years ago when he wrote it, and while writing it he researched and discovered that many of the same debates took place 40 years before he played the game. The NHL, its coaches, and its players are fixed like mosquitos in amber when it comes to finding new ways for the game to evolve.

Conversely, the game would be quite boring if it were eliminated altogether. There are some great hits and a lot of energy generated by the dump and chase.

 

[PhoPhan]

Dump and chase is not a style of play. It's a tactic. It should be used when a pass-in or carry-in is not feasible, but movement through the neutral zone should be aiming for one of those over a dump.

We can argue over whether Tippett's system encourages too much of it, or whether individual players resort to it too frequently, but it's more than a little disingenuous to call Tippett's system "dump and chase."

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Dump and chase is not a style of play. It's a tactic. It should be used when a pass-in or carry-in is not feasible, but movement through the neutral zone should be aiming for one of those over a dump.

We can argue over whether Tippett's system encourages too much of it, or whether individual players resort to it too frequently, but it's more than a little disingenuous to call Tippett's system "dump and chase."

Yes, you're right. Tippett's strategic vision is inherently conservative, and thus tactically his forwards dump-and-chase more than the league average.

 

[kihekah19*]

Dump and chase is not a style of play. It's a tactic. It should be used when a pass-in or carry-in is not feasible, but movement through the neutral zone should be aiming for one of those over a dump.

We can argue over whether Tippett's system encourages too much of it, or whether individual players resort to it too frequently, but it's more than a little disingenuous to call Tippett's system "dump and chase."

Maybe that explanation helps.

 

[DomiToDuclair]

every year it's the same thing

"but we have such a young team, we're trending upwards, smith is playing well, blah blah blah"

The results have been the same for years regardless. We don't even have players from those years any more because they went somewhere else, and I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people here felt we would do a lot better this season building on Domi and Duclair's wonderful seasons last year and bringing up Dvorak, Strome, Chychrun and DeAngelo having played wonderfully.

27th in points, 27th in GF. 23rd in GA.

Last year, 25th in points, 24th in GF, 27th in GA.

And yet, our team has theoretically been upgraded quite a bit in defensive capabilities given how well Chychrun and DeAngelo have been playing.

Consistently, I think our team has gotten better players every year since our last good years with Whitney, but we're now performing worse than ever.

Are Stone, Chychrun, OEL, DeAngelo, Goligoski, Murphy better than Schlemko, Klesla, OEL, Yandle, Morris, Rundblad, Michalek?

In 2013-14 PHX was 18th in the League with that defense.

Tippett traditionally coaches a very defensive team style.

How is it that our GA/GP has consistently gone up in the Tippett era every single year he's been a coach (outside of the 2011 year where we went super hot) from when he first took over?

 

[BUX7PHX]

every year it's the same thing

"but we have such a young team, we're trending upwards, smith is playing well, blah blah blah"

The results have been the same for years regardless. We don't even have players from those years any more because they went somewhere else, and I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people here felt we would do a lot better this season building on Domi and Duclair's wonderful seasons last year and bringing up Dvorak, Strome, Chychrun and DeAngelo having played wonderfully.

27th in points, 27th in GF. 23rd in GA.

Last year, 25th in points, 24th in GF, 27th in GA.

And yet, our team has theoretically been upgraded quite a bit in defensive capabilities given how well Chychrun and DeAngelo have been playing.

Consistently, I think our team has gotten better players every year since our last good years with Whitney, but we're now performing worse than ever.

Are Stone, Chychrun, OEL, DeAngelo, Goligoski, Murphy better than Schlemko, Klesla, OEL, Yandle, Morris, Rundblad, Michalek?

In 2013-14 PHX was 18th in the League with that defense.

Tippett traditionally coaches a very defensive team style.

How is it that our GA/GP has consistently gone up in the Tippett era every single year he's been a coach (outside of the 2011 year where we went super hot) from when he first took over?

Veteran players who know what is necessary to win in the league (playing good defense) vs rookies who will get exposed for being out of position by the tiniest amount of space.

A seemingly good stable of defensive prospects who appeared ready to be regular NHLers in name only. Gormley and Rundblad were the two highest profile players who seemed ready on paper. Not so much on the ice.

I do think that Playfair has been below average in his coaching. There has been little to change my opinion on that, even though the past few games, we have appeared to be much better in positioning and play on the defensive end.

It is hard to jump from the CHL to the NHL. A few players can do it. Domi did. Duclair did so with some unreal shooting metric luck. I would say that less than 5% of rookies set the NHL on fire. We got lucky with Domi, and luckier with Duclair, based on his high shooting percentage. Some level of regression should have been expected with the amount of youth added to the team.

Give it two years, maximum, and we will start a long run of playoff berths...